Why Thai banks are trying to charge you for cash at ATMs and branches

[sjaak327]

9 hours ago, chaihot said:

I can't agree with that.  I have been married almost 16 years and was here years before that; we have consistently used credit cards at least the last 12 years; 90% with the Capital One Venture credit card, the other 10% with Chase Presidential Plus.  It was substantially more difficult to use the card in the early days, with multiple name/id verifications.  But that is over now.  In some locations, you are not even required to sign the sales slip (as in the US).

 

As an example, we use the card at Carl Jr; Pizza Co, Mariott Lunch, Big C, Tops, Starbucks, Home supply stores (Baan), Sizzler, The News Cafe in Jomptien, all gas stations, car wash companies, tire stores, toyota repair, Romayama water park ... I could go on and on and on.  And none of these places charge a fee on top.  I don't carry much cash, so I would never be able to survive without cards.

 

I do not understand how people say credit cards are not easy in Thailand.  Unless you are shopping at the local market, where Ga Pow is 25 baht, from the lady who sells 10 of those a day.  I am referring to LIVING here expenses ... and not visiting and souvenir shopping.

But some people do shop at the local market, many Thai and foreigners alike eat at places near to their home, most of them do not accept credit cards, or any other form of electronic payment. Yes if you use starbucks, or the big C, electronic payment is possible, if you go to the nearest pop and mum shop, it is not. 

 

My reference to France is not a coincidence, the simple fact is that compared to that Country, Thailand has a long way to go. Your lifestyle here might enable you to go electronic mainly, mine and many others do not. 

[mogandave]

1 minute ago, sjaak327 said:

But some people do shop at the local market, many Thai and foreigners alike eat at places near to their home, most of them do not accept credit cards, or any other form of electronic payment. Yes if you use starbucks, or the big C, electronic payment is possible, if you go to the nearest pop and mum shop, it is not. 

 

My reference to France is not a coincidence, the simple fact is that compared to that Country, Thailand has a long way to go. Your lifestyle here might enable you to go electronic mainly, mine and many others do not. 

So how much cash do you typically spend in a week?

[digitalnobhead]

Thai banks are extremely uncompetitive - collectively possibly the worst in SE Asia, getting merchant rates under 4% is a real struggle so it doesn't surprise me that adoption of visa/mastercard hasn't take off with market vendors or small independents.. That said anything above 1% you're really just supporting reward/cashback schemes so there is still much room for change. Thai banks have tried to cut visa/mastercard out with their own payment schemes with scan this QR to move money, and use your mobile number as a sender/recipient address, but as is normal here - the tech talent is comical so the terrible buggy apps create as much frustration as a branch visit. Thailand 4.0, or 0.4 won't be coming anytime soon.. 

[sjaak327]

14 minutes ago, mogandave said:

So how much cash do you typically spend in a week?

Whilst in Thailand, the better question is, how many times do you pay electronically, almost never is the answer. In Thailand my expenditures are over 95% in cash. And a shitload of my Thai friends are in the same ballpark. Again in Thailand (which is the subject of this thread) cash is still king. 

 

Relying on credit cards only is not possible. But then again, it isn't possible in most countries of the world. 

[mogandave]

Whilst in Thailand, the better question is, how many times do you pay electronically, almost never is the answer. In Thailand my expenditures are over 95% in cash. And a shitload of my Thai friends are in the same ballpark. Again in Thailand (which is the subject of this thread) cash is still king. 
 
Relying on credit cards only is not possible. But then again, it isn't possible in most countries of the world. 

I live in Bangkok and pay with credit cards almost all the time.

[marcusarelus]

At the bank at my small town two Lazada drivers were making a deposit with backpacks full of money of all denominations.  Took 20 minutes two tellers with machines to count it all. 

[sjaak327]

17 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

I live in Bangkok and pay with credit cards almost all the time.

 

Already been discussed, your lifestyle might enable you to pay CC almost all the time, almost all of the places I visit do not offer the possibility to pay electronically. Almost all eateries, street vendors, pop and mum shops I visit do not offer electronic payment, many bars I visit don't offer those either. 

 

And I can asure you that the average Joe from Buriram pays for almost all things in cash. You are an expat I presume, your life style is not the same as many people here 

[digitalnobhead]

12 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Already been discussed, your lifestyle might enable you to pay CC almost all the time, almost all of the places I visit do not offer the possibility to pay electronically. Almost all eateries, street vendors, pop and mum shops I visit do not offer electronic payment, many bars I visit don't offer those either. 

 

And I can asure you that the average Joe from Buriram pays for almost all things in cash. You are an expat I presume, your life style is not the same as many people here 

Indeed, many expats think Bangkok equals Sukhumvit confined between Onnut and Nana where the swipe locations will be expat bar, restaurant, mall, villa market... 

[mogandave]

Already been discussed, your lifestyle might enable you to pay CC almost all the time, almost all of the places I visit do not offer the possibility to pay electronically. Almost all eateries, street vendors, pop and mum shops I visit do not offer electronic payment, many bars I visit don't offer those either. 
 
And I can asure you that the average Joe from Buriram pays for almost all things in cash. You are an expat I presume, your life style is not the same as many people here 

The reason I asked how much cash you spend a week (which you did not answer) is because I believe living as you do, I doubt having to pay a fee to use an ATM would be much of a hardship.

I live frugally, I just shop at places that take credit cards. I do not eat out much.

[mogandave]

Already been discussed, your lifestyle might enable you to pay CC almost all the time, almost all of the places I visit do not offer the possibility to pay electronically. Almost all eateries, street vendors, pop and mum shops I visit do not offer electronic payment, many bars I visit don't offer those either. 
 
And I can asure you that the average Joe from Buriram pays for almost all things in cash. You are an expat I presume, your life style is not the same as many people here 

The reason I asked how much cash you spend a week (which you did not answer) is because I believe living as you do, I doubt having to pay a fee to use an ATM would be much of a hardship.

I live frugally, I just shop at places that take credit cards. I do not eat out much.

[moana]

1 hour ago, digitalnobhead said:

scan this QR to move money

Since you mentioned it... Bangkok Bank is running a promotion until the end of 2018. Every 200+ baht spent via QR in Tesco Lotus receives a 20 baht cashback. That's a 10% cashback if you divide your bill to 200 baht lots ????

 

* Total sum of cashback limited to 200 baht 555.

[CanInBKK]

21 minutes ago, digitalnobhead said:

Indeed, many expats think Bangkok equals Sukhumvit confined between Onnut and Nana where the swipe locations will be expat bar, restaurant, mall, villa market... 

 

I think a distinction should be made between “can’t” accept electronic payment and “won’t” accept electronic payment. With QR code being completely free for both merchant and customer, there is no more “can’t”, not even for the 25 Baht kapow moo vendor. The “won’t” only comes into play because let’s face it, all these people are dodging taxes - which in itself is a completely separate discussion from what I mentioned before, the cost of cash transportation and how the BOT no longer allows banks to charge money transfer/bill payment fees. The banks don’t care either way if the Revenue Department can increase the tax take, they only want fairness regarding the cost of cash transportation.

[cat handler]

On 12/5/2018 at 10:14 AM, fruitman said:

Now wait untill thailand gets a financial crisis like the West had in 2009.....guess who'll loose their savings first...

They already had one, it was called the Asian Economic Meltdown and occurred around 2001 I think it was. 

 

[sjaak327]

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

The reason I asked how much cash you spend a week (which you did not answer) is because I believe living as you do, I doubt having to pay a fee to use an ATM would be much of a hardship.

I live frugally, I just shop at places that take credit cards. I do not eat out much.

 

about 700 euro per week, give or take. The argument that a fee does not give me any hardship is completely irrelevant. The issue is banks charging any fee for cash withdrawals. I pay them for their accounts, no fees for atm withdrawals should be necessary. For a Thai on a wage of 300 baht a day, those fees can make a difference of course. 

[mogandave]

about 700 euro per week, give or take. The argument that a fee does not give me any hardship is completely irrelevant. The issue is banks charging any fee for cash withdrawals. I pay them for their accounts, no fees for atm withdrawals should be necessary. For a Thai on a wage of 300 baht a day, those fees can make a difference of course. 

None of my bank accounts have annual fees.

My point is that with that level of spending, you’d only have to use an ATM 6 times a month.

A person making 300 a day would have no reason to use one more than once a month.

If the bank is losing margin due to maintaining ATMs, they can either:

1. Reduce or eliminate ATMs
2. Raise or initiate annual fees on accounts
3. Raise annual ATM card fees
4. Initiate ATM transaction fees

Item one they lose some customers

Item two punishes everyone

Item three punishes everyone that has an ATM card

Item four punishes only the people that use their ATM card, and in the precise proportion they use it.

Four seems like the fairest option to me, as it compels only the people benefiting from the service to pay for the service. Why should people that don’t use a service have to pay for others to use it?

[cmsally]

The monthly rental fee for placing an ATM is I believe around 6-10k BT a month depending on desirability of location. This must be quite some overhead when you add it up nationwide. Added to that they will be renting a very large amount of square meters for all their mall branches.

Why not simply reduce these huge rental overheads , rather than punishing the consumer.

[mogandave]

The monthly rental fee for placing an ATM is I believe around 6-10k BT a month depending on desirability of location. This must be quite some overhead when you add it up nationwide. Added to that they will be renting a very large amount of square meters for all their mall branches.
Why not simply reduce these huge rental overheads , rather than punishing the consumer.

So making the consumer travel further to visit a branch or use an ATM is not punishing them?

[Pattaya46]

11 hours ago, CanInBKK said:

With QR code being completely free for both merchant and customer, there is no more “can’t”, not even for the 25 Baht kapow moo vendor. //

Don't electronic terminals for cards and/or mobiles need to be connected to an electric plug?

Many street food vendors still just have a 12v battery for their lighting.

Some terminals may even require an Internet access. 

[moana]

8 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Don't electronic terminals for cards need to be connected to an electric plug?

Depends on the type of QR payment. Quite a few vendors simply have a printed QR code which basically just opens a PromptPay type payment on the banking app with the receiver pre-filled. Customer enters the amount and sends, and the vendor immediately sees it on his/her mobile, and hands over the goods. The vendor doesn't even need that 12v battery ????

[CanInBKK]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

Don't electronic terminals for cards and/or mobiles need to be connected to an electric plug?

Many street food vendors still just have a 12v battery for their lighting.

Some terminals may even require an Internet access. 

 

Exactly as @moana said above, printed QR code physically posted. SMS chimes in when the payment is received even if the vendor is using a Motorola flip-phone (but let’s face it, how many adults in Thailand don’t have a smartphone with internet access).

[chaihot]

4 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

about 700 euro per week, give or take. The argument that a fee does not give me any hardship is completely irrelevant. The issue is banks charging any fee for cash withdrawals. I pay them for their accounts, no fees for atm withdrawals should be necessary. For a Thai on a wage of 300 baht a day, those fees can make a difference of course. 

Your *CASH* spending is 700 Euro ($800 USD) per WEEK?  I hope that includes your rent, electricity, etc ... Congratulations to you if that is your discretionary spending. ????

 

This post made me feel unusually cheap or frugal - I don't know which.  

[mogandave]

Your *CASH* spending is 700 Euro ($800 USD) per WEEK?  I hope that includes your rent, electricity, etc ... Congratulations to you if that is your discretionary spending. [emoji846]
 
This post made me feel unusually cheap or frugal - I don't know which.  

No, that’s for street food and ice-cream...

[sjaak327]

None of my bank accounts have annual fees.

My point is that with that level of spending, you’d only have to use an ATM 6 times a month.

A person making 300 a day would have no reason to use one more than once a month.

If the bank is losing margin due to maintaining ATMs, they can either:

1. Reduce or eliminate ATMs
2. Raise or initiate annual fees on accounts
3. Raise annual ATM card fees
4. Initiate ATM transaction fees

Item one they lose some customers

Item two punishes everyone

Item three punishes everyone that has an ATM card

Item four punishes only the people that use their ATM card, and in the precise proportion they use it.

Four seems like the fairest option to me, as it compels only the people benefiting from the service to pay for the service. Why should people that don’t use a service have to pay for others to use it?

Nice you pay no annual fees. Many people do, and also with Thai banks. The main point here is that it is questionable that there really is a problem.

The bot also allowed Thai banks to levy an outrageous fee for foreign atm with drawers, a fee that has no relation with the true costs of that electronic transaction. A fee that is up to 220 baht currently, and dwarfs many surrounding countries.

The fact that some Thai banks even charge their own customers for withdrawing money from an atm in another province is all we need to know, they are trying to fleece their customers.

My point is simple, I pay a quartly fee to use a bank account, then I at the very least expect I can make unlimited atm withdrawals at any of that bank atm. Just as ls normal back in Europe.

Sent from my SM-J730F using Tapatalk

[digitalnobhead]

18 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Nice you pay no annual fees. Many people do, and also with Thai banks. The main point here is that it is questionable that there really is a problem.

The bot also allowed Thai banks to levy an outrageous fee for foreign atm with drawers, a fee that has no relation with the true costs of that electronic transaction. A fee that is up to 220 baht currently, and dwarfs many surrounding countries.

The fact that some Thai banks even charge their own customers for withdrawing money from an atm in another province is all we need to know, they are trying to fleece their customers.

My point is simple, I pay a quartly fee to use a bank account, then I at the very least expect I can make unlimited atm withdrawals at any of that bank atm. Just as ls normal back in Europe.

Sent from my SM-J730F using Tapatalk
 

It should be noted, that at least on foreign cards  they also receive a payment back from the payment network that the card uses so they get a kickback from Visa/Mastercard that should be sufficient to cover the cost of managing the ATM, it is sufficient for most Malaysia and Vietnam banks - although I note some are now adding a small surcharge  - nothing like 220baht though. I cant find the docs atm but I think it was something like 0.65% - hence why some fintech european debit card only allow withdrawls upto 200eur a month before passing on 1%-1.5%, i guess the cardholder bank gets charged around 1%,  

 

Anyway, on thai banks, in addition now they try to trick you with DCC too..   For an extra 3-4%.. 

 

At least you get a free can of coca cola though - amazing thailand

[mogandave]

Nice you pay no annual fees. Many people do, and also with Thai banks. The main point here is that it is questionable that there really is a problem.

The bot also allowed Thai banks to levy an outrageous fee for foreign atm with drawers, a fee that has no relation with the true costs of that electronic transaction. A fee that is up to 220 baht currently, and dwarfs many surrounding countries.

The fact that some Thai banks even charge their own customers for withdrawing money from an atm in another province is all we need to know, they are trying to fleece their customers.

My point is simple, I pay a quartly fee to use a bank account, then I at the very least expect I can make unlimited atm withdrawals at any of that bank atm. Just as ls normal back in Europe.

Sent from my SM-J730F using Tapatalk

There is no bank in Thailand that charges 220 Baht to make a withdrawal from their own ATM using their own ATM card, you are making that up.

So if they raised everyone’s quarterly fee such that you could get free withdrawals anywhere you want, would you be okay with that?

[kwilco]

Banks are shops that buy and sell money - they want your money and they want to hold on to as much of it as they can so they need to attract you to them........ this is usually with banking facilities or interest - (interest at present  is too low) so - e.g internet and ATM etc....if they charge too much then punters choose a different bank........ however in Thailand the banks ae pretty much a cartel so they can get away with charging what they want.

[mogandave]

Banks are shops that buy and sell money - they want your money and they want to hold on to as much of it as they can so they need to attract you to them........ this is usually with banking facilities or interest - (interest at present  is too low) so - e.g internet and ATM etc....if they charge too much then punters choose a different bank........ however in Thailand the banks ae pretty much a cartel so they can get away with charging what they want.

How is it that banks from all over the world are involved in a Thai bank “cartel”?

Do you need a tinfoil hat to make withdrawals?

[sjaak327]

31 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

There is no bank in Thailand that charges 220 Baht to make a withdrawal from their own ATM using their own ATM card, you are making that up.

So if they raised everyone’s quarterly fee such that you could get free withdrawals anywhere you want, would you be okay with that?

 

Before accusing someone of making stuff up, you might want to properly read the post you are responding to. What part of foreign atm do you not understand ?

 

As to your question, if proof is forthcoming that their ATM network is so costly that they are loosing money, yes. But I am convinced such proof cannot be produced.  

 

 

[mogandave]

Before accusing someone of making stuff up, you might want to properly read the post you are responding to. What part of foreign atm do you not understand ?
 
As to your question, if proof is forthcoming that their ATM network is so costly that they are loosing money, yes. But I am convinced such proof cannot be produced.  
 
 

I apologize. Every country I have been to charges high fees when drawing money at an ATM using a foreign ATM card. You seem to indicate this this would be free in Europe, I do not believe that to be true.

The most banks are publicly held, and as such their P & L is public record.

Personally, I think the banks should be able to charge whatever they want regardless of what their margin is, as long as there is competition in the market.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

I live in Bangkok and pay with credit cards almost all the time.

 

I do not have a credit card for use in Thailand and I don't use phones for money. I use cash or online banking, which I use quite a lot.

There is no simple solution that suits everyone.