U.S. federal judge rules Obamacare unconstitutional

[direction BANGKOK]

I have always said this is simple. Take healthcare away from all the people in power and then let them keep deliberating on what to do after that. 

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, direction BANGKOK said:

I have always said this is simple. Take healthcare away from all the people in power and then let them keep deliberating on what to do after that. 

Or give everyone the level of healthcare provided to members of Congress.

[Jingthing]

Most of us have excellent healthcare in the US, it comes with our job. Obummer care or the ACA should never have been passed and has done nothing but cost those of us who take care of ourselves.

Many millions don't get coverage from employers. Excuse me but they're Americans too. Please refrain from juvenile insults about the best president we'll ever know.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[bristolboy]

16 minutes ago, UncleTouchyFingers said:

 

Whaaaaat? Insurance premium spikes are a direct result of Obamacare, and employers have not been shielded from this. 

 

Do you think if people have insurance through their employer that they..... ...don't have to pay for it? 

Only insurance premiums for individual insurance policies. As the article I cited noted, employer provided health insurance has been rising at a much slower rate. If your rates spiked the way you claim, that's because your employer shafted you. Unless you had a really lousy employer provided policy. There were minimum standards imposed but they were very minimal. Most employer provided insurance easily met those standards.

[UncleTouchyFingers]

6 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Employer provided health insurance is not affected by Obamacare. There are no financial or tax obligations placed on employer provided health insurance. If your employer told you otherwise, they were playing you.

 

Dude do you even have healthcare, and are you an American? Because you are so wrong and uninformed that I am 99% sure you aren't, and you somehow thought it was a good idea to debate with someone who has been living with this chit their whole life. 

 

Obamacare required insurers to carry mandatory provisions in all healthcare plans such as mental health, pregnancy, child care, etc. insurance companies are forced to provide these coverages and those costs are directly passed on to the end user, regardless of wether they get the plan from employers or the healthcare market. People were able to buy plans that didn't have these things, now they cant. For example men without children or mental health issues.

 

Insurers were "allowed" to carry these plans called "grandfathered plans" but promptly did away with them, or jacked up the prices, forcing millions to get on plans that conform to the ACA. 

 

Its an unequivocal lie on your part. 

 

As for your link, its from 2017 and simply states that after 7 years of Obamacare that prices have finally stabilized. 

[UncleTouchyFingers]

5 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Only insurance premiums for individual insurance policies. As the article I cited noted, employer provided health insurance has been rising at a much slower rate. If your rates spiked the way you claim, that's because your employer shafted you. Unless you had a really lousy employer provided policy. There were minimum standards imposed but they were very minimal. Most employer provided insurance easily met those standards.

 

Complete & total BS, and insulting as hell. Its illegal for employers to "shaft people" and face penalties for doing so. 

[bristolboy]

5 minutes ago, UncleTouchyFingers said:

 

Dude do you even have healthcare, and are you an American? Because you are so wrong and uninformed that I am 99% sure you aren't, and you somehow thought it was a good idea to debate with someone who has been living with this chit their whole life. 

 

Obamacare required insurers to carry mandatory provisions in all healthcare plans such as mental health, pregnancy, child care, etc. insurance companies are forced to provide these coverages and those costs are directly passed on to the end user, regardless of wether they get the plan from employers or the healthcare market. People were able to buy plans that didn't have these things, now they cant. For example men without children or mental health issues.

 

Insurers were "allowed" to carry these plans called "grandfathered plans" but promptly did away with them, or jacked up the prices, forcing millions to get on plans that conform to the ACA. 

 

Its an unequivocal lie on your part. 

 

As for your link, its from 2017 and simply states that after 7 years of Obamacare that prices have finally stabilized. 

No that article did not state that. The article specifically said and I quoted this:

"That is the sixth straight year that employer-provided policies have increased by well under 5 percent, according to the survey."

[UncleTouchyFingers]

Just now, bristolboy said:

No that article did not state that. The article specifically said and I quoted this:

"That is the sixth straight year that employer-provided policies have increased by well under 5 percent, according to the survey."

 

So its confirmed you aren't an american and want to argue and obfuscate an issue you don't know anything about. 

 

And as to your quote:

 

Ill finish it for you - "That is the sixth straight year that employer-provided policies have increased by well under 5 percent, for less, more volatile, and higher risk coverage because of Obamacare"

 

Quote

Currently 85 percent of covered workers have a deductible in their plan, up from 81 percent last year and 59 percent a decade ago. The average single deductible now stands at $1,573 for those workers who have one, similar to last year’s $1,505 average but up sharply from $735 in 2008. These two trends result in a 212 percent total increase in the burden of deductibles across all covered workers.

 

https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/employer-sponsored-family-coverage-premiums-rise-5-percent-in-2018/

[Rimmer]

Off topic post and reply removed

[Tug]

I have 2 comments #1 who benefits stripping peoples estates when some family member gets sick#2 this trump screwing of the poor will hasten his exit and usher in a single payer system

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, UncleTouchyFingers said:

Notice how the liberal implies insignificance with the term "minority of Americans" even though historically the Obamacare lovers have been the actual minority. 

 

And how out of touch he is thinking that since "most working americans get coverage from employers" that they somehow have weathered the storm and haven't been affected. Working Americans get coverage through employers but still have to pay for it, and they have been grossly affected as well. Across the board if you have had insurance, weather private or through your employer, your premiums have spiked in the extreme. 

 

Libs will downplay this, gloss over it, and ignore it but the fact remains - it was chit to begin with and its chit still today. 

“Notice how the liberal implies insignificance with the term "minority of Americans" even though historically the Obamacare lovers have been the actual minority.”

 

And now they are in the majority.

 

Get over it already!

 

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, UncleTouchyFingers said:

 

What does that have to do with Obamacare and Americans. Obamacare is the polar opposite of single payer and yet you are going through the thread mocking posts with smileys that don't support Obamacare. And the weird part is that most people on here aren't even Americans, and the Americans that are opining wont ever have to participate. 

You’re throwing accusations around with no evidence.

 

I guess you’re short on your arguments, you’re certainly not winning folk over and clearly have no interest in doing so.

 

Calm down and take a few deep breaths.

[Dumbastheycome]

No issue. The USA  is  now  sick  to the core  from the top  to the long accustomed bottom.

[Emdog]

This would be ideal time for Trump to unveil his health care plan he bragged of during campaign: cover everyone better, be cheaper, etc etc. So let's see it ASAP

If you compare HC coverage, outcomes and cost across developed nations (plenty of data on that available) it is clear that Universal is cheaper, better etc outside USA by a large margin.

If American health care is so good, why do so many international health policies cover everywhere except the USA?

[Jingthing]

Yes, remember hypocritically the republicans ran in the midterms trying to sell the big lie that they were all for protecting preexisting condition coverage. The people weren't that stupid this time to believe them. It was known the republicans had been pushing to kill ACA all along and was supporting this legal effort to kill it as well. If anyone actually believes the republicans will step up and show they actually weren't lying in the midterms, I have a special price today for you on the Brooklyn Bridge.

 

To wit --

Quote

 

With ACA in peril, Republicans get to show if they really want to protect people with preexisting conditions

From the moment the White House decided it would defend no part of the Affordable Care Act in a federal lawsuit brought by 20 red state governors and attorneys general, Democrats pounced on the real-world implications.

The lawsuit claimed Congress' removal of the individual mandate penalty requiring everyone have health insurance nullified the entire law and made it unconstitutional. The Trump administration’s refusal to stand up for any part of the law meant that if a judge ruled against the law then the whole thing would come crashing down, including the popular parts, namely coverage protections for Americans with preexisting health conditions.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/12/15/with-aca-peril-republicans-get-show-if-they-really-want-protect-people-with-preexisting-conditions/

(Headline and first three sentences only included.)

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Jingthing

[bristolboy]

14 minutes ago, Emdog said:

This would be ideal time for Trump to unveil his health care plan he bragged of during campaign: cover everyone better, be cheaper, etc etc. So let's see it ASAP

If you compare HC coverage, outcomes and cost across developed nations (plenty of data on that available) it is clear that Universal is cheaper, better etc outside USA by a large margin.

If American health care is so good, why do so many international health policies cover everywhere except the USA?

Well, the reason they mostly don't cover it, or charge a huge premium to do so, is that American health care is so expensive. It's not about quality. That said, the quality of American health care is quite low among the 38 OECD nations. I think it was rated at 36 last time. Only Chile and Mexico were rated lower.

[Nigel Garvie]

No I'm not an American, I have American friends who do however understand their own system well. Some of you appear to want poor people to be left to die, and others don't, that's your choice. However from an outsiders view your whole system is a totally unbelievable mess. US healthcare is at least twice as expensive as anywhere else in the world, including even Switzerland <deleted>. Not only that but you have a lower life expectancy than Cuba. Apparently this has been the case long long before Obamacare, and has a lot to do with a stitch up between the Doctors/Hospitals, and the insurance companies, backed up by an army of politicians whose pockets have been stuffed with cash. There is only one word for this - corruption - of the sort that so many posters complain about in LOS. 

 

What puzzles me is that so many Americans don't appear to be embarrassed or ashamed that they are allowing themselves to be totally ripped off. Forget Obamacare's rights and wrongs, they are about distribution, which is irrelevant to this basic fact - You are ALL being totally ripped off by your healthcare system. Aren't you angry that you are paying twice as much as anywhere else in the developed world, without achieving better outcomes overall. If you wan't to live with that level of corruption that is your option, from a European point of view it looks totally crazy.

[UncleTouchyFingers]

11 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

You are ALL being totally ripped off by your healthcare system. Aren't you angry that you are paying twice as much as anywhere else in the developed world, without achieving better outcomes overall.

 

Um, yeah we are, unless you're in a low income bracket and only have to pay $50\month, then of course you'd love it. 

[Jingthing]

33 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

No I'm not an American, I have American friends who do however understand their own system well. Some of you appear to want poor people to be left to die, and others don't, that's your choice. However from an outsiders view your whole system is a totally unbelievable mess. US healthcare is at least twice as expensive as anywhere else in the world, including even Switzerland <deleted>. Not only that but you have a lower life expectancy than Cuba. Apparently this has been the case long long before Obamacare, and has a lot to do with a stitch up between the Doctors/Hospitals, and the insurance companies, backed up by an army of politicians whose pockets have been stuffed with cash. There is only one word for this - corruption - of the sort that so many posters complain about in LOS. 

 

What puzzles me is that so many Americans don't appear to be embarrassed or ashamed that they are allowing themselves to be totally ripped off. Forget Obamacare's rights and wrongs, they are about distribution, which is irrelevant to this basic fact - You are ALL being totally ripped off by your healthcare system. Aren't you angry that you are paying twice as much as anywhere else in the developed world, without achieving better outcomes overall. If you wan't to live with that level of corruption that is your option, from a European point of view it looks totally crazy.

Yes many of us are very angry but on this issue, the U.S. political system has simply not worked. It's pretty absurd to present the USA as a shining example to the world when we can't get such a basic thing done. 

[Jingthing]

There is actually a MEDICARE connection to this news. If it turns out the complete ACA law is fully overturned, the Medicare Donut Hole thingy is part of the ACA law.

 

https://obamacarefacts.com/questions/when-does-the-donut-hole-go-away/

[bkkcanuck8]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There is actually a MEDICARE connection to this news. If it turns out the complete ACA law is fully overturned, the Medicare Donut Hole thingy is part of the ACA law.

 

https://obamacarefacts.com/questions/when-does-the-donut-hole-go-away/

Side note in comparison between systems:  That is something that is not part part of the public health system in Ontario (Canada - not sure about other provinces - it is a provincial not federal based system).  I always paid for my own prescription drugs.  I believe it make be covered by employment benefits, but being self-employed for the last 20 years - I don't know the details of it.  I believe there is an Ontario drug benefit program for elderly and children at some cost depending on income. 

[Thakkar]

1

Trump administration supports states’ legal fight to remove ACA protections for people with pre existing conditions.

 

2

Trump and GOP campaign on promises to guarantee protections for people with pre existing conditions, saying they’ve always been in favor of that.

 

 

3

Republican States win case, removing protections for people with pre existing conditions.

 

4

Trump hails this as a victory.

 

 

This kind of double dealing is what endears Trump to his fans. The cruelty and the shameless lying is so lovable.

[Jingthing]

51 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

1

Trump administration supports states’ legal fight to remove ACA protections for people with pre existing conditions.

 

2

Trump and GOP campaign on promises to guarantee protections for people with pre existing conditions, saying they’ve always been in favor of that.

 

 

3

Republican States win case, removing protections for people with pre existing conditions.

 

4

Trump hails this as a victory.

 

 

This kind of double dealing is what endears Trump to his fans. The cruelty and the shameless lying is so lovable.

Exactly. This is sick. He's assuming correctly his fans can't think for themselves and don't remember what he said five minutes ago and he's right. 

[Trouble]

Obamacare was a plan that promised everything and delivered a lot less.  Unfortunately rather than the healthcare platform Obama promised, the program did not deliver inexpensive health care for all. What it did was provide a lot of subsidies to purchase health care to a large segment of the population and then provide costly health care premiums to those that had to buy it on their own. It also increased spending on state medicaid programs which basically offer free medical care for low the income people.  It has widely been reported that it was flawed.  Nancy Pelosi was widely quoted about passing the law so they can find out what's in the plan.  This kind of statement from a national leader only shows the political elite to be the morons the public knows them to be. It was passed without public hearings or debate. Obamacare would never be able to sustain itself because it promised too much. Everyone knows it except the diehard supporters of Obama. The problem of Obamacare trying to solve every ill in the health care markets was a foolish concept to begin with.  Providing insurance for catastrophic illnesses, etc. would have been a good first step but the people that created Obamacare wanted a massive medical welfare system without thoroughly thinking out the revenue needed to sustain it.  One can forever be trying to tax the rich but eventually the number of programs overwhelm the whole tax structure.  Pelosi and Schumer have just announced that they want to tax the 1% for salary increases to teachers to the tune of 10 billion a year. They just think there is an endless supply of tax money out there.  What is happening in France is an example of creating a welfare state with one of the heaviest tax burdens in the world.  Even the common people are in the streets now because the government has reached the point it has to tax everything to pay the bills. We would all like to see a system where the general populace is healthy and cared for but we don't live in utopia and unfortunately every newly conceived program requires revenue to support it. When those in Congress can figure out how to budget for things I am all for programs that help the people but adding programs which make the government bigger is all they know how to do.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, UncleTouchyFingers said:

 

Um, yeah we are, unless you're in a low income bracket and only have to pay $50\month, then of course you'd love it. 

Yup, just the same as every  developed nation’s universal healthcare system, and their’s is still way cheaper than healthcare in the US for better outcomes.

 

It doesn’t enter your head to ask why healthcare in the US is so exorbitantly expensive and always has been, long before the ACA.

 

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-start

[lannarebirth]

13 hours ago, Boon Mee said:

It should never have been passed in the first place. 

 

Not without a plan to wind down and replace the private healthcare insurance system.

[lannarebirth]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes of course it's not ideal.

But you're smoking something very strong if you think the Individual-1 controlled senate and the Individual-1 controlled white house is going to pass anything resembling universal health care that the house might put forward.

 

 

 

You're smoking something if you think the House is going to pass anything resembling Universal Healthcare unless it is something they are absolutely certain will be shot down. Democrats don't want Universal Healthcare anymore than Republicans do. What they want is that sweet spot where their greatest donors make tons of profits and the stocks multiply ten fold, while giving free healthcare to their core voters and doubling or tripling premiums for everyone else.

[lannarebirth]

4 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Well, the reason they mostly don't cover it, or charge a huge premium to do so, is that American health care is so expensive. It's not about quality. That said, the quality of American health care is quite low among the 38 OECD nations. I think it was rated at 36 last time. Only Chile and Mexico were rated lower.

I'm surprised Mexico and Chile were rated lower. The American healthcare system is absolutely abysmal, by design.

Edited December 15, 2018 by lannarebirth

[Credo]

11 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

I'm surprised Mexico and Chile were rated lower. The American healthcare system is absolutely abysmal, by design.

Although this is getting a little off-topic, I have to disagree with you.   The US healthcare system is amongst the best in the world.   I've used medical services in many, many different countries and the US overall is heads ahead of most.

 

The problem with the US healthcare system is it is very expensive and it is hard to negotiate the various systems, insurances, etc.   It is a bureaucratic nightmare.   

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

20 minutes ago, Credo said:

Although this is getting a little off-topic, I have to disagree with you.   The US healthcare system is amongst the best in the world.   I've used medical services in many, many different countries and the US overall is heads ahead of most.

 

The problem with the US healthcare system is it is very expensive and it is hard to negotiate the various systems, insurances, etc.   It is a bureaucratic nightmare.   

 

 

Ethics though can vary -- especially when it comes to surgery.  There tends to be a tendency to go nearly directly to a surgical solution (higher profit) where the patient may be served by a physical therapy.  Surgery of course often looks like the and easiest solution, but there are risks in surgery.  If a longer / slower physical therapy can return someone to health without surgery - it is often the safer route. 

 

A for profit health system works great for many that can afford it as it is not clogged up by all the people that cannot afford it.  The rationalization of medical services is driven by money / market forces as opposed to a public health insurance system where this rationalization is done.  The other side of the coin is that with public health insurance system the rationalization is done by those most in need and waiting lists for some major surgeries.  In both cases medical services do get rationalized.

 

Private insurance companies will often look for ways to not deliver on having to cover what should be insured.  In some cases if it is something like cancer - some insurance companies have been known to fight it figuring that you will die before the expensive treatment has to be covered.  You may well find yourself under surveillance as the insurance company looks for any small thing that you may or may not have been completely honest about -- regardless of the impact on what is being covered. 

 

Even if the insurance company agrees to pay -- depending on which hospital you ended up in an emergency -- you might end up as a pawn in it with the hospital threatening you with legal action for collecting on a debt -- even when negotiations are ongoing with the hospital and the insurance company to cover it (been witness to this). 

 

Then of course if you had pre-existing conditions, you may not be able to get coverage in the first place (which is something Obamacare tried to fix). 

 

So yes, if you have coverage -- and it actually does cover it -- or you are wealthy -- the US system of medical services is very good.  You may however find out that your coverage was not that great until you are in dire need of it and you are in a position least able to deal with it. 

 

The Obamacare system though was more or less designed through expediency of political trading -- to the point where it is more or less designed to fail at a certain point...  And as you said the patchwork nature of the US system is a bureaucratic nightmare to navigate for many.

 

I have used many different systems (working in Canada, US and UK and living in Thailand now) and while each has its pluses and minuses - I would say Canada's system is the safest bet for your average person.  It might not be the quickest, nor the best, but the safest that you won't be surprised.