Bangkok Bank New York and Thailand--how?

[Suradit69]

21 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

You seemed to have missed the point of my earlier post.  I am talking about domestic wire transfers from a US bank to Bangkok Bank, NOT ACH transfers and NOT SWIFT transfers.  I understand that ACH transfers that are not IAT format will be refused after April 1.  My suggestion is that that fact does not imply that domestic wire transfers from US banks will also be refused, since they have their own format.

The US government requires either ACH in IAT format or Swift transfers.

 

Any form of domestic transfer will not be allowed because they want transfers that end up with funds being deposited overseas to be booked as such.

 

A domestic wire transfer or ACH transfer will fail for that reason since it conceals the fact that the transfer is, in effect, an international transfer and avoids reporting of it as such.

 

Quote

The National Automated Clearing House Association (NACHA) will require a new format for certain ACH transactions. This new rule changes the data file formats required to originate U.S. domestic ACH transactions when they are part of a payment chain that begins or ends in another country. Payment transactions that begin as wires, or interbank transfers from abroad that are converted to ACH by a U.S. financial institution, are included in this definition ...

 

The new IAT format is designed to help law enforcement agencies detect, investigate and prosecute money laundering and other financial crimes by creating and preserving an information trail of entities sending and receiving funds through U.S financial institutions' monetary systems. 

https://www.jpmorgan.com/tss/General/International_ACH_Transactions_IAT_/1298418629713

Edited December 24, 2018 by Suradit69

[cmarshall]

4 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

I have Fidelity, Vanguard and Schwab accounts with my Thai address and phone number.

I know I can also open a new account with Interactive Brokers or TD Ameritrade with my Thai address.

Fidelity closed my account when I provided my Thai address, which is why all the other US institutions with which I deal have only my US mailing address, except for SSA.

 

Fidelity, Vanguard, and Schwab US all require that customers be US residents.  The fact that they have not enforced that restriction to date does not mean that they may not decide to enforce it at some time in the future.  In my opinion it is better to avoid drawing unwanted attention.

[cmarshall]

5 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

The US government requires either ACH in IAT format or Swift transfers.

 

Any form of domestic transfer will not be allowed because they want transfers that end up with funds being deposited overseas to be booked as such.

 

A domestic wire transfer or ACH transfer will fail for that reason since it conceals the fact that the transfer is, in effect, an international transfer and avoids reporting of it as such.

 

https://www.jpmorgan.com/tss/General/International_ACH_Transactions_IAT_/1298418629713

The link you cite is dated: Effective September 18, 2009.  It obviously hasn't had any impact so far on domestic wire transfers.   The text makes clear that it applies only to ACH transactions. 

 

The National Automated Clearing House Association (NACHA) will require a new format for certain ACH transactions. This new rule changes the data file formats required to originate U.S. domestic ACH transactions

 

Domestic wire transfers are not ACH transactions any more than SWIFT transactions are ACH transactions.  

 

So far, I see no evidence that domestic wire transfers to Bangkok Bank will be affected after April 1.

[Suradit69]

22 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

Seems risky to me to be doing international transfers directly from a Vanguard account.  If they decide at some point in the future based on factors like a history of foreign money transfers that you perhaps no longer reside in the US, they may demand a US electric bill verifying your US address or else they will close your account

I've had a Vanguard account for over 45 years. I've used account addresses in Africa, the UAE, Pakistan and Thailand. And during much of that time they were sending account transactions summaries and tax information by mail to those address, although now all of that has gone paperless. Currently I use a US account address, but use my Thai phone number on the account. 

 

The cover letter I sent them along with the SWIFT application I made it clear I was living in Thailand and needed to make regular transfers for living expenses. I think by now they've figured out that I am living overseas.

 

They know very well that some of their customers live overseas. I've actually used both my Thai and US address in communications with them.

 

12 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Fidelity, Vanguard, and Schwab US all require that customers be US residents. 

Utter nonsense. Many people I know use one or more of those brokers and do not hide the fact that they live overseas. Please find a link to something from Vanguard stating they require you to be resident in the US. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Suradit69

[cmarshall]

2 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

I've had a Vanguard account for over 45 years. I've used account addresses in Africa, the UAE, Pakistan and Thailand. And during much of that time they were sending account transactions summaries and tax information by mail to those address, although now all of that has gone paperless. Currently I use a US account address, but use my Thai phone number on the account. 

 

The cover letter I sent them along with the SWIFT application I made it clear I was living in Thailand and needed to make regular transfers for living expenses. I think by now they've figured out that I am living overseas.

 

They know very well that some of their customers live overseas. I've actually used both my Thai and US address in communications with them.

I had had my Fidelity account for almost 40 years when they closed it after I reported my Thai address to them.  The length of my relationship with them didn't factor into their decision.

 

Let me put it this way.  I'll bet you wouldn't drive a car when you are drunk.  Neither would I.  Not long ago I read that someone had figured out based on the average distance of a drive "home" and statistics on accident rates under the influence, etc. that if you do drive yourself "home" when you are drunk the chance that that drive will result in an accident is actually not more that about 0.001%.  Surprising, isn't it?

 

Assuming that estimation is correct, I still would never drive a car while drunk, not because a crash is likely, but because it is an excess, i.e. unnecessary and avoidable, risk.  And because the risk, when it does appear, could be catastrophic.

 

[Suradit69]

24 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

The link you cite is dated: Effective September 18, 2009.  It obviously hasn't had any impact so far on domestic wire transfers.   The text makes clear that it applies only to ACH transactions.

Yes and someone finally figured out that it applied to Bangkok Bank NY as the crack down on money laundering and transfers that abet terrorists come under greater scrutiny.

 

If you want to believe that you can avoid that by sending wires instead of ACH transfers, I'm sure the money launderers, drug dealers and terrorists will be amazed at this easy workaround.

 

If you want to send money out of the US, it needs to be reported as an international transfer to the US Treasury and whoever else in the government tracks such transactions. Why you insist on wanting to make a domestic transfer rather than using SWIFT eludes me, but good luck to you.

 

Bangkok bank makes no mention of using wire transfers to accomplish deposits to Thailand via Bangkok Bank NY.

 

The only option they suggest is:

 

Quote

The IAT is a special code (a Standard Entry Class or “SEC” Code) for ACH payments that enables financial institutions such as Bangkok Bank to identify and monitor international ACH payments and to perform screening to ensure compliance with Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC, U.S. Department of the Treasury) requirements.  The NACHA  rules require Bangkok Bank’s New York Branch which serves as intermediary, to ensure that payments that are transmitted to account of beneficiary in other country are appropriately classified as IATs and contain information as described below.

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Suradit69

[lopburi3]

8 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Why you insist on wanting to make a domestic transfer rather than using SWIFT eludes me, but good luck to you.

Because SWIFT can be a real PIA as well as expensive from most banks? Transferwise (and suspect others) use a domestic pull from your bank to send to Thailand using local accounts in each country.  I am sure it is reported to relevant authorities but does not require SWIFT and avoids intermediate bank or exchange fees.  They use security SMS PIN to Thai phone number.

[cmarshall]

3 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Yes and someone finally figured out that it applied to Bangkok Bank NY as the crack down on money laundering and transfers that abet terrorists come under greater scrutiny.

 

If you want to believe that you can avoid that by sending wires instead of ACH transfers, I'm sure the money launderers, drug dealers and terrorists will be amazed at this easy workaround.

 

If you want to send money out of the US, it needs to be reported as an international transfer to the US Treasury and whoever else in the government tracks such transactions. Why you insist on wanting to make a domestic transfer rather than using SWIFT eludes me, but good luck to you.

A domestic wire transfer is a little cheaper, requires less information, and may be executed online at many institutions instead of requiring a phone call.  Seems reason enough to me to prefer it.

 

If the US Treasury is indeed responsible for instigating the change at Bangkok Bank, then there is at least one possible reason that they would focus on ACH transactions, rather than domestic wires.  Most banks require the title of the receiving account of an ACH transfer to match that of the sending account, although there are now some exceptions appearing with services like Popmoney.  So, ACH transactions going to foreign bank accounts owned by US citizens would be a good place to look for expats failing to report their foreign banks accounts as required.  Terrorists are scarce, but expat tax evasion isn't.  Wire transfers are more often to third parties, so not the first place to look for tax evaders. 

 

But whatever the reason behind the mysterious change, I plan to use domestic wire transfers as long as possible.  

[Thailand J]

26 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

I had had my Fidelity account for almost 40 years when they closed it after I reported my Thai address to them.  The length of my relationship with them didn't factor into their decision.

What happened? May be you had had it too long? just kidding.

My Fido account is 35 years old , I open it when I was 23 in grad school. Remember Peter Lynch and his Magellan Fund?

I have just received Fidelity check book mailed to me in Pattaya via DHL.

 

 

[cmarshall]

29 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

What happened? May be you had had it too long? just kidding.

My Fido account is 35 years old , I open it when I was 23 in grad school. Remember Peter Lynch and his Magellan Fund?

I have just received Fidelity check book mailed to me in Pattaya via DHL.

 

Checks??  Keep them stored right next to the 8-track player, do you?

[lopburi3]

10 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Checks??  Keep them stored right next to the 8-track player, do you?

Actually Americans still seem to use checks for a lot of things - I still get them for insurance pharmacy claims (at least can cash online now).  My seldom used check book is still dated 19..

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

I am sure it is reported to relevant authorities but does not require SWIFT and avoids intermediate bank or exchange fees. 

Then why do they provide a list of SWIFT codes to be used.

 

https://bank-code.net/bank/TRANSFERWISE-INC.html

 

Quote

 

TRANSFERWISE INC swift codes

Browse through all available bank swift codes used by TRANSFERWISE INC

The bic codes below belong to TRANSFERWISE INC bank and/or any of its branches across all countries and cities in the world.

Swift codes also known as BIC Codes is a unique bank identifier used to verify financial transactions such as a Bank Wire Transfer.

The bank swift code provides information about the bank and branch where the money should be transferred. Being able to check information about the Swift Code will provide you with the proper information necessary to make or receive payments. Some of the banks and their associated branches benefit from an address listing which provides you with the means to match swift codes with financial institution office address.

This unique swift code directory provides businesses and individuals with an easy way to avoid bank transfer and money transfer mistakes.

 

 

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

Actually Americans still seem to use checks for a lot of things

I'm American and haven't written or received a paper check in at least 5 years, probably more.

My bank was taken over by Bank America years ago and the checks and deposit slips I still have are all for the former bank. I can't think of any reason to ask for new ones.

[Thailand J]

a check creates a paper trail, easy for the payer to proof what he has paid.

I use checks to pay the IRS if the amount is big, smaller amounts I use EFTPS, which i have no issues so far..but just in case.

The point is Fido agents know I am in Thailand.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Thailand J

[Pib]

2 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

I'm American and haven't written or received a paper check in at least 5 years, probably more.

My bank was taken over by Bank America years ago and the checks and deposit slips I still have are all for the former bank. I can't think of any reason to ask for new ones.

I haven't used a check to pay for anything for many years, however, I have used VOIDed/blank checks to setup ACH transfer links with certain financial companies/bank when I couldn't setup the transfer link via ibanking for some reason.   In fact, had to do that over the last year in setting up an ACH transfer link for a new Cap1 bank account where I was having problems receiving the OTP to setup the transfer link. So, instead, I mailed in their form with VOIDed/blank check attached and about 10 days later the transfer link was setup.  

 

For these once in a blue moon needs to use a check I always get a batch when first opening a bank account....the first batch is almost always free so why not get them just in case.

 

 

[Thailand J]

Since i can't add a bank online because my account has a Thai address ( the option is disabled), i also have to use a void check/deposit slip  and a form to add a bank via mail to establish an ACH link.

Fidelity check design hasn't change much in 35 years, i remember it was dark green with the pyramid in the middle. Now it is pale green with the pyramid off center.

...kinda cool to have my Thai address on the upper left of a check from a US bank. In this case it's UMB Bank in Kansas City.

[cmarshall]

13 hours ago, Thailand J said:

a check creates a paper trail, easy for the payer to proof what he has paid.

I use checks to pay the IRS if the amount is big, smaller amounts I use EFTPS, which i have no issues so far..but just in case.

The point is Fido agents know I am in Thailand.

I don't use checks anymore, but I have always wondered in this era of online billpay how one can show proof of receipt of funds, which we see on the back of the cancelled check.  I have never heard any first hand account of someone settling a dispute about non-payment without a cancelled check.

[cmarshall]

12 hours ago, Thailand J said:

Since i can't add a bank online because my account has a Thai address ( the option is disabled), i also have to use a void check/deposit slip  and a form to add a bank via mail to establish an ACH link.

Fidelity check design hasn't change much in 35 years, i remember it was dark green with the pyramid in the middle. Now it is pale green with the pyramid off center.

...kinda cool to have my Thai address on the upper left of a check from a US bank. In this case it's UMB Bank in Kansas City.

State Department Federal Credit Union permits US expats to open an online account with their overseas physical address.  I have an account with them.  Good service, all the features I need.

[Thailand J]

SDFCU is a good substitute for Bangkok NY ACH, but I enjoy all the benefits of brokerage accounts: ATM fees reimbursed, free SWIFT transfers.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Thailand J

[JimGant]

Quote

So far, I see no evidence that domestic wire transfers to Bangkok Bank will be affected after April 1.

Suradit has explained it very nicely. The Feds came down on Bangkok Bank because, even tho' mechanically they could send domestic ACH transfers to Thailand, in doing so, they were sidestepping money laundering safeguards. So, come April 1st, Bangkok Bank will be in charge of monitoring that ACH transfers are now in compliance with the Feds, i.e., in IAT format. The compliance burden is on Bangkok Bank, not the Feds -- since mechanically, a domestic ACH could still slip thru across the pond. Just like a domestic transfer could slip thru across the pond. But I don't think Bangkok Bank is stupid enough to ignore the spirit of the new direction, albeit specifically aimed at ACH, but obviously covering domestic wire to Thailand situations too.

Anyway, I too did a USAA domestic wire to Thailand thru Bangkok Bank several months ago, just to see if it worked. Yep. Same fees as an ACH, plus USAA waived the $20 wire fee (probably 'cause I've been a member for over 50 years). So, it would be nice if, come April 1st, I could still do a domestic wire to Thailand. But, per the previous argument, I doubt it.

TransferWise is pretty clever. Their ACH operation is a "pull," thus not requiring you, the sender, to fill in the IAT data elements. They do this at their clearing bank in the US, before sending it on to Thailand. That's why they require so much information from you before you can send the money. Probably the wave of the future. Sadly, Bangkok Bank New York doesn't have the cost-covering volume, with just Thailand as the recipient, to do the ACH transfers as "pulls," and provide the IAT data elements in New York. I guess TransferWise for small transfers, and SWIFT for larger ones, are in my future.

[Roy Baht]

On 12/23/2018 at 12:54 AM, Suradit69 said:

 

On the form supplied to me by my broker I indicated that transfers would be going to Bangkok Bank Thailand and included my Bangkok Bank account number and the SWIFT code for Bangkok Bank Thailand.

 

 

 

 

What is the name of the form your broker supplied you? What form should I ask for?

 

Thanks in advance

[Roy Baht]

On 12/24/2018 at 10:21 AM, Suradit69 said:

But, I then had the embassy certify a copy of my US passport ID page and I filled out a blank affidavit form (that is provided on the embassy website), not mentioning anything about banks, brokers or transfers. I just wrote out my US address on the affidavit and signed it in front of the consular officer in order to get something with my signature guaranteed.

 

 

 

I don't understand. What exactly did your blank affidavit affirm? What did you write after: "The purpose of this affidavit is to affirm:"? Also, I don't have a US address. Just a Thai one. Is that ok?

 

 

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, Roy Baht said:

I don't understand. What exactly did your blank affidavit affirm? What did you write after: "The purpose of this affidavit is to affirm:"? Also, I don't have a US address. Just a Thai one. Is that ok?

 

 

I just wrote me US address, but you could write your Thai address or something else. The only reason I used the form at all was because it included my notarized signature at the bottom.  If your Vanguard account uses your Thai address that should be fine, but as I said the only reason I used the form at all was to get my signature notarized. The certified copy of the passport does not include your signature.

 

I sent you a PM. PM me back if you still have questions.

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, Roy Baht said:

What is the name of the form your broker supplied you? What form should I ask for?

 

Thanks in advance

I sent you a blank copy of the form in the PM. That should work. If not, search on the Vanguard website for the International Wire Service Form or send a message to a rep and ask for the form.

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Suradit69

[Thomas J]

I have done a little additional research and apparently the Social Security administration will be using the IAT format for its monthly social security payments.  That would mean you would have to use Bangkok Bank New York for the monthly deposits but it would be then automatically transferred to the Bangkok Bank Thailand at the BKK Thailands "buy" U.S.D. rate and exchanged into baht.  I am not sure if that is better or worse than what transferwise uses but I would not think the differential would amount to 1% which is what transferwise apparently charges and they of course make some margin on top of that on the exchange as well. 

[Thomas J]

One additional message.  I had an IRA with Vanguard that has since been closed but my user name and password still worked.  It allowed me to open up a brokerage account and there was no requirement to get any type of Medallion or Signature guarantee.  i did it all online in 5 minutes.  They are just doing an ACH debit for my first deposit.  So I think I have found a way to do cheap transfers.  If any out there have at one time had a Vanguard or Fidelity account I suspect you could do the same. 

[Pib]

5 hours ago, Thomas J said:

I have done a little additional research and apparently the Social Security administration will be using the IAT format for its monthly social security payments.  That would mean you would have to use Bangkok Bank New York for the monthly deposits but it would be then automatically transferred to the Bangkok Bank Thailand at the BKK Thailands "buy" U.S.D. rate and exchanged into baht.  I am not sure if that is better or worse than what transferwise uses but I would not think the differential would amount to 1% which is what transferwise apparently charges and they of course make some margin on top of that on the exchange as well. 

SSA has been using ACH IAT for a long time "if the recipient has a Thailand address on file with SSA and uses Bangkok Bank."  However, it still doesn't work out sometimes....the payment still ends up being sent in ACH domestic format.   Per Bangkok Bank, approx 80% of the SSA payments they currently receive are in IAT format; the remaining 20% are not. I have a family member in that 20% although she has a Thai address on file with the SSA.  Multiple contacts with SSA over the last several months have not fixed the issue.

 

Due to this problem the SSA will implement International Direct Deposit (IDD) for Thailand sometime in the first quarter of 2019 per a US Embassy announcement in late 2018.  Been talked in other threads.  IDD is usually sent via SWIFT. The SSA instructions are already on the SSA website, Manila SSO has the instructions, and still waiting for the final go ahead from HQ SSA.  Expect the I's and T's are still being dotted before they can flip the switch to on and begin enrollment.  This will fix the issue for the 20% whose payments which are not in IAT format.

[OneZero]

So if SSA can fix it, why cannot USAA fix it?

[Pib]

40 minutes ago, OneZero said:

So if SSA can fix it, why cannot USAA fix it?

USAA and other US banks/CUs simply do not use ACH IAT to "send" payments for "retail" accounts....they can receive IAT payments but do not want to use ACH IAT to send for retail accounts.  Prefer to use the SWIFT system for international payments.

[OneZero]

OK thanks.  Any guess a s to why? Perhaps because Swift is a money maker?

 

Why ask so many ""why's"?  

 The 5 Whys is a technique used in the Analyze phase of the Six Sigma DMAIC (Define, Measure, Analyze, Improve, Control) methodology. 

By repeatedly asking the question “Why” (five is a good rule of thumb), you can peel away the layers of symptoms which can lead to the root cause of a problem. Very often the ostensible reason for a problem will lead you to another question. Although this technique is called “5 Whys,” you may find that you will need to ask the question fewer or more times than five before you find the issue related to a problem.

Edited February 9, 2019 by OneZero