U.S. court orders North Korea to pay $501 million in U.S. student's death

[impulse]

38 minutes ago, sirineou said:

sovereign countries or faith entities,  are often taken to domestic courts

US court allows 9/11 victims' lawsuits claiming Saudi Arabia helped ...

 

“Cardinal Pell has been charged on summons, and he is required to appear at the Melbourne Magistrates’ Court” on July 18, Shane Patton, the deputy police commissioner, said at a news conference. 

 

The difference is that those cases involve actions within the country where they were filed.

 

[Pattaya46]

Seems one more strange USA court verdict to me... 

Looks like doctors/specialists are still not sure of the exact reason of his death, and the coroner who examined Otto Warmbier's body has said there is no clear indication he had been tortured during his detention in North Korea.

How is a court able to give such a verdict in such conditions ???

[sirineou]

29 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

The difference is that those cases involve actions within the country where they were filed.

 

Fair enough  

 I am not arguing one way or another on the merits of the case or the jurisdiction , I simply replied on the assertion that domestic courts don't hear cases against sovereign governments or religion.  They clearly do. 

an additional point that might be relevant is that the US does not recognise the NK government so any case in the US against NK is not of a sovereign country.

  

   

 

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

I did not say "not proportional) I said "not directly proportional" the operative word being "directly"

 

Ok... proportional, no worries... not directly proportional, but enough to hurt... define that as you like, but obviously it would be a far higher figure than NK would be able to pay, which is a lot more than you or I can pay... so increased due to payer wealth (which is what you said)... whilst the figures may differ, there isn’t really much difference in the argument

 

“sovereign countries or faith entities,  are often taken to domestic courts

US court allows 9/11 victims' lawsuits claiming Saudi Arabia helped ...”

 

nice link... “often” in your comment above, is however, an over statement... way over statement. The law enabling the Arabs to be pursued is freshly minted (2 years old), specifically to address 9/11 victims, and had not actually been tested, as the case against SA, is still a work in progress

 

And.. it’s about a crime committed on US soil, not in a foreign theater.

 

and... it’s a US law, which takes me back to my point that the US judicial system is facilitating the pursuit of foreign soverign entities/ governments. These are not universal laws,  and again, even if they were, the US rejects cases against US citizens, so this law is a statement of arrogance, unique to the US, I think ( I would have to search that to be more certain)

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/28/world/australia/cardinal-george-pell-charged-sexual-abuse.html

 

cardinal Pell is not a church (faith entity)... he is an individual, and as such, is not above the law.... nor does the case cross international borders, so the court is well within its jurisdiction 

 

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Not now but, NK will at some point want to do business with the US if negotiations proceed as some hope  that will, at which point this judgement will have to be revisited.

 

Perhaps it will.... and at that point NK can appeal the verdict and properly represent itself, and have any payment, if the courts can enforce such payment, reduced on appeal to something more commensurate with norms that might be applicable, which is likely around 100th of the 501 mill currently on demand. (so yes, the judgement can be revisited... lol... needs to be revisited)

 

big ifs here, because NK could also appeal to the international court.... so if (again) the US insist on a payment, it will be a commercial cost of doing business with the US... a tariff, if you will, which may effect who NK decides to do business with.

 

this then has a roll on effect whereby US businesses would want the amount slashed, such that they can line their pockets

 

Nice one... thanks 

[farcanell]

9 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Fair enough  

 I am not arguing one way or another on the merits of the case or the jurisdiction , I simply replied on the assertion that domestic courts don't hear cases against sovereign governments or religion.  They clearly do. 

an additional point that might be relevant is that the US does not recognise the NK government so any case in the US against NK is not of a sovereign country.

 

Whilst the US might not recognize NK, which I haven’t confirmed, it is a member country of the United Nations... so it’s not just about America here, it’s also about the international community... an international community that might need to enact counter laws. (To the law you linked)

 

Anyway... as a UN veto member country, I’m surprised that NK is not recognized by the US... but ok... and as the finding is against NK... well again, more surprises, but ok.

 

In the event that NK is not a country, I suppose SK will be on the hook for the 500 mill. They might object.

[farcanell]

34 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Fair enough  

 I am not arguing one way or another on the merits of the case or the jurisdiction , I simply replied on the assertion that domestic courts don't hear cases against sovereign governments or religion.  They clearly do. 

 

For clarity... my example was of a danish domestic court pursuing a foreign entity or faith, which acted outside its jurisdiction.

 

your counter example was of a domestic court pursuing a citizen of its own country, within that country, over crimes committed within its jurisdiction.

 

there are no apparent equivalencies, so the claim that “they clearly do” is untested

[sirineou]

First let me take to thank you for engaging me in this conversation, I have enjoyed it very much. Your arguments are well thought out and thought provoking ,Though I like to think not as well thought out as mine ,( Cardinal Pell  excluded) LOL

40 minutes ago, farcanell said:

Whilst the US might not recognize NK, which I haven’t confirmed, it is a member country of the United Nations...

 Indeed it is not recognised by many countries including Japan France Canada etc. Thailand has an ambivalent relationship with NK as NK has an embassy in Thailand but Thailand does not have one at NK (probably because the shopping and night clubs there, suck LOL) in fact I was surprised to find out that most NK defectors enter the west via Thailand who recognises all Koreans as South Koreans , and when they enter Thailand they are considered illegal immigrants , arrested and then send   to SK. in essence NK's go to Thailand to get arrested and send to SK . 

 

1 hour ago, farcanell said:

In the event that NK is not a country, I suppose SK will be on the hook for the 500 mill. They might object.

I don't think  anyone ever expects that 501 milion will be recovered, if indeed North Korea became a legitimate member of the Family of nations, I am sure they will negotiate a reasonable number to settle the case  or if there is no case in their opinion, appeal and have their day in court. 

 If they fold, South Korea will never pay as they will claim the debt to be Odious.

Nonetheless if indeed the sovereignty  of North Korea is not recognised by US courts  ( just because I made the point it does not mean that it is apropos to this case , by no stretch of the imagination am I an expert on international relations)  IMO the UN has no relevance in the case, as US courts are independent of the UN.

1 hour ago, farcanell said:

Anyway... as a UN veto member country, I’m surprised that NK is not recognized by the US..

The US is not the only UN member that does not recognise NK as I said above, France, Japan Canada etc all UN members) But as you said I am also surprised that the US did not use its Veto power to deny UN membership to NK.

 I guess they want them where they can see them, and as a UN member the NK is subject to UN resolutions that the US has more control over that the NK. I Don't profess to totally understand UN politics. 

anyway thank you again , now I need to rest those few brain cells I have intact,

Thank you again.

 

[farcanell]

9 hours ago, sirineou said:

Indeed it is not recognised by many countries including Japan France Canada etc.

Incorrect.

 

and the etc bit is indicative of there being an etc, which is way over the top, as it only misses out on South Korea.

 

so... to correct your list... Japan, South Korea, France.

[Kiwiken]

Little Kim says "The cheque is in the mail"

[observer90210]

Will the court accept freshly printed Wons ?!!

[baboon]

9 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

Little Kim says "The cheque is in the mail"

What charges did this court hear regarding acts of theft, vandalism and trespass on Mr. Warmbier's part...? I presume there must be two cheques in the mail...

[sirineou]

17 hours ago, farcanell said:

Incorrect.

 

and the etc bit is indicative of there being an etc, which is way over the top, as it only misses out on South Korea.

 

so... to correct your list... Japan, South Korea, France.

I  don't understand.

What is incorrect?

[FritsSikkink]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 4:03 PM, Briggsy said:

What do you mean, "not really."

 

I can assure you that the plaintiffs in the case were the deceased's parents and not the U.S. government. There is no "not really" about it. It is a fact.

"These 2 posts seem to suggest the plaintiff was the U.S. government."

I don't think they did. 

[Scott]

19 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

"These 2 posts seem to suggest the plaintiff was the U.S. government."

I don't think they did. 

From the OP :

Warmbier's parents sued North Korea in April over their son's death.

 

It's not the US gov't suing or involved in the suit.  

[FritsSikkink]

7 minutes ago, Scott said:

From the OP :

Warmbier's parents sued North Korea in April over their son's death.

 

It's not the US gov't suing or involved in the suit.  

I never said they did and neither the 2 post that was referred to. The US judge / US justice look silly by awarding 500 + million for 1 death. They aren't that generous when somebody gets killed by a US citizen / government body.

[Scott]

27 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

I never said they did and neither the 2 post that was referred to. The US judge / US justice look silly by awarding 500 + million for 1 death. They aren't that generous when somebody gets killed by a US citizen / government body.

You can pretty much sue anybody, but frivolous suits get thrown out.   It's difficult to know, without a legal brief, what the reasoning was for the judgement and the award.   The courts are not usually generous, per se.  

 

I have no idea what costs were incurred by the family in trying to secure his release, but those would be included.  

[farcanell]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

I  don't understand.

What is incorrect?

North Korea is recognized by Canada, which has a non resident embassy in Seoul... ergo it is incorrect to say Canada does not recognize NK

 

the UN countries that do not recognize NK are japan, South Korea and France.

 

ergo, to say it is not recognized by many countries is also incorrect.

When 190 out of 193 UN countries recognize NK. (and... 5 out of 6 non UN countries recognize NK)

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

I never said they did and neither the 2 post that was referred to. The US judge / US justice look silly by awarding 500 + million for 1 death. They aren't that generous when somebody gets killed by a US citizen / government body.

The original filing was seeking 1 1/2 billion USD, with the court awarding 1/2 billion.

 

this money is roughly split three ways between mum, dad and ottos estate, and is based on pain and suffering plus punitive damages ( mostly punitive ... 90% ish)

 

about 100, 000 is for medical bills, apparently, with no mention of either legal fees or other costs made, although these might be a small consideration. (Unless lawyers were working on a percentage... this is not mentioned)

 

NK, as a country at war with the USA, did not represent itself, although it denies all charges publically, and maintains that the death (of an enemy of the state and convicted criminal) is a mystery. This is compounded by the family not allowing an autopsy to determine the cause of death, which remains open to speculation. (one could factor in third world medical technology here, as well.... with US sanctioning preventing NK medical evolution)

 

the case appears to have been largely determined by emotions, vs fact... the fact being that Otto was returned to the US blind, deaf and comatose... probably due to lack of oxygen to the brain, according to doctors that conducted non invasive examinations only.

 

evidence beyond this was mainly related to his public confession in NK, which was deemed to have been as a result of torture, although this is unproven, as is everything else.

 

so... no cause of death or proof of anything, yet a staggering payout which will be hard to justify on appeal or in an international court, as it lacks precedent, to the best of my knowledge... certainly outside the US.

 

this information is online, including the results of the post mortem non invasive examination, which did not show gross amounts of torture, as is included in the plaintiffs case.... (a look at the heart would have produced much better evidence as to the cause of death, but this was not allowed... and any appeal by NK will undoubtedly demand this... go figure)

[sirineou]

22 hours ago, farcanell said:

North Korea is recognized by Canada, which has a non resident embassy in Seoul... ergo it is incorrect to say Canada does not recognize NK

[farcanell]

32 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Having a consulate in NK does not reflect wether or not a country recognizes NK... the US, for example, uses Sweden as a proxy.

 

UN sources say that three member states (and one non member state) do not recognize NK.

 

heres another map... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_North_Korea