BREAKING NEWS Thai immigration reveals new requirements for retirement, marriage extensions (visas)

[elviajero]

32 minutes ago, wobalt said:

they say it is to support the family (see announcement)
This is the reason my wife had decided since 1988 to live mostly in Germany


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

"They" are wrong.

[DaRoadrunner]

I am not clear, is there still the option of a fixed Thai bank deposit of 400K or 800K as an alternative, same as exists now?

 

Basic problem with the Thais is they come up with these new rules without considering if they will work or not. I am tired of having no stability or surity of Visa with the Thais.

 

One can always consider other countries but they all have restrictive Visa rules, so where does one go?

 

 

 

 

[zydeco]

2 minutes ago, DaRoadrunner said:

I am not clear, is there still the option of a fixed Thai bank deposit of 400K or 800K as an alternative, same as exists now?

 

Basic problem with the Thais is they come up with these new rules without considering if they will work or not. I am tired of having no stability or surity of Visa with the Thais.

 

One can always consider other countries but they all have restrictive Visa rules, so where does one go?

 

 

 

 

Mexico or Central America.

[Bo Lindblad]

Can't see any differece from before?The possibility to combine money in the bank and pension is not menthioned at all?

[colinneil]

11 minutes ago, mirage said:

Is there a cost benefit having the pension paid every 13 weeks as opposed to every 4 weeks ?.

Well mate i asked for 13 weeks thinking it would save me money on the transfer costs, only having 4 a year.

[elviajero]

12 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

so now you have no choice but to transfer money, not leave it in the home country and transfer only what you need. hardly helping some people is it? 

Of course it is if the choice is; no embassy letter = no extension OR no embassy letter but you can show transfers into your bank every month instead!

 

Without this change NONE of the expats from the 4 countries could get an extension based on income. At least some/most still can.

[atyclb]

4 hours ago, moto77 said:

They'll likely lose their wealthiest retirees with this nonsense. I don't have a pension. I have a business in the US and take draws of well over 500K THB a month. Of course I'm not going to put that in a Thai bank. LOL

I don't really care anymore because I dropped my retirement visa two years ago and decided to spend more time in other places just due to the other nonsense going on in Thailand. I suspect more will follow with silly rules like this. ???? 

 

its as if thai banks are in collusion with immigration to force people to transfer funds to thai banks where the interest paid is a pittance.  why should it matter where you have money as long as you have it?

 

it is very unjust for those that bought houses for their wives and themselves to live in thus used their funds already and may not have sufficient money to transfer in every month.  so will the husbands need to leave thailand and pay rent somewhere else while their wives/family remain in thailand?

 

others bough condos straight out and have been living well on much less than 65000 baht/month.

[elviajero]

14 minutes ago, ginjag said:

My point being scrap the bank deposits /income.   CHARGE a yearly fee for retirement visa 60,000 baht.   with guarantee residence /deeds and maybe medical insurance.  think of the massed income Thai immigration would inherit and TAT more than happy with extra tourism

 

Great idea if they want to get rid of most of the expats, which they don't. Who's side are you on?

[Rob1706]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Most people I know don't pay tax in Thailand on income earned outside or received outside of Thailand, regardless of whether or not it eventually ends up getting deposited into a Thai bank account.

 

Dutch tax laws are different, you have to show you are fiscal person liable to pay tax in Thailand due to Tax treaty to avoid double taxation.

[mirage]

3 minutes ago, colinneil said:

Well mate i asked for 13 weeks thinking it would save me money on the transfer costs, only having 4 a year.

Does it save money ?. I ask because I will have to make this decision in a few months.

[elviajero]

9 minutes ago, Delight said:

 Suspect that this option may have finished.

It is impossible to 'fiddle ' the new rules

Money in the bank for 3 months  can be achieved via a 3 month loan from friend

IT HAS NOT FINISHED!

[nasa123]

18 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

If your embassy is still issuing income letters, then that alone should suffice for financial proof.

 

But if they aren't or you don't want to go that route, you now can also document monthly income via monthly deposits into a Thai bank account, showing Immigration that history in your Thai bank book,, and getting a letter from your Thai bank confirming that you had the required monthly deposits coming from outside Thailand.

 

Norwegian Ambassy still issuing income letter and thanks TGJBKK ????????

[tracy3eyes]

Many expats relying on pension or other incomes will be impacted by this change

 

Letters from embassy could specify gross incomes in order to be able to meet the 40K or 65k requirement. And many pension incomes are insufficient anyway.

The actual net income being deposit in their home country bank account would be much less so being able to transfer gross amounts likely not possible.

Even if the net income did meet the requirement there maybe commitments in home countries that have to be met each month, particularly for those who maintain a bolt hole thus leaving insufficient funds for transfer to a Thai bank account

This is going to impact a lot of expats who will no longer be able to meet the requirement because the actual requirement has to be transferred each month

 

Another issue: If one is due to renew their extension in Sept 2019, when do they have to start transferring the requirement? Also, how many expats will actually be able to do so because they no longer have sufficient income amounts or need to cover some home country commitments.

 

A friend of mine who has been living in Thailand for 15 years and has used the embassy letter with a genuine pension of 70,000 baht gross a month will now no longer be able to meet the requirement because of the Net income he receives from his pension each month of around 50000 a month and after deducting home country commitments he will have only 40000 a month available for transfer.

 

I do not think that the TI numpties have thought about this and nor do they realise the impact and number of expats that will not be renewing their extensions in 2019!

 

Also so many expats have properties paid for in Thai but only just manage to meet the requirement. Their Chanots should count for something or do they have to sell their homes to be able to meet the requirements. Disgrace.

 

Nutters!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by tracy3eyes

[bluesofa]

2 minutes ago, colinneil said:

Well mate i asked for 13 weeks thinking it would save me money on the transfer costs, only having 4 a year.

And does it save on transfer costs?

Would you like to share any details Colin? - although I've still got five years before I qualify.

Is it paid in arrears, in advance, or perhaps mid-point in the three month cycle?

[elviajero]

9 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

So I posted earlier but what is your take on this:

 

So given the verbiage as in the OP, when will be the first persons who will actually get an extension under the new 65K+ international-sourced monthly deposit scheme?

There is talk that they will phase it in so at this point in time I cant give an answer.

 

The answer I want is how first time applicants are going to be treated. Renewals are no problem, but 3 transfers will be the max a new applicant can make. 

 

My opinion: I wouldn't be surprised if they start accepting new and renewal applications with at least 3 months of transfers in the bank prior to the application.

[Vacuum]

52 minutes ago, rossco1 said:

maybe time too look at moving to another country that welcomes all nationalities

EU has a variety of choises....

[zydeco]

Tired of this crap.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 minutes ago, tracy3eyes said:

Many expats relying on pension or other incomes will be impacted by this change

 

 

Thais are generally not known for their appreciation of the complexities of the world. They're more into simplicity.

 

As in, all they care about is seeing money coming into Thailand, in the form of a large bank deposit or smaller monthly deposits from outside Thailand.

 

They could very well have included some provision about property/condo ownership being a qualifying factor, as it is in some other countries. But they didn't and haven't. Perhaps because they don't actually like the idea of foreigners being able to actually own anything here.... Just spend their money and go and/or eventually die...

 

[ginjag]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Great idea if they want to get rid of most of the expats, which they don't. Who's side are you on?

Think no bank deposits here sitting for NOWT, no hassle from income as most expats only on UK Pension do NOT have the amount paid to them (40,000 a month, UK pension is only 30,000..  To think 1,500 UK pound to stay here hassle free no headaches about income...

Where do you get the idea that it would drive ex pats away,   Pay 60,000 baht and 1 year freedom,   why come out with driving expats away.??? 

[ubonjoe]

41 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Joe, what about proof of income for the income part of the combination method? I haven't used it before but may do so this time. Is the proof of income part for the combo less rigid than for the outright 65K monthly minimum?

No difference between the two other than the income would be less than 65k baht and it would need be totaled up to change it to a annual income to confirm you have enough money in the bank. If it was less sent in for less than a year when you did the application I assume you would have it average what you had got in and multiple it by 12.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Spidey said:

Hasn't been a minimum of 42 years for quite a while. The Labour government dropped it to 30 years, only for the Tory government to push it back up to 35 years, where it currently stands.

I paid in for 44 years.

[JLCrab]

9 minutes ago, elviajero said:

There is talk that they will phase it in so at this point in time I cant give an answer.

 

The answer I want is how first time applicants are going to be treated. Renewals are no problem, but 3 transfers will be the max a new applicant can make.

OK Thanks -- so if someone started making qualifying deposits JAN 2019 by  mid-2019 there should maybe be so solid indication based on actual extensions as to what works and what if any backup might be required.

[mfd101]

2 hours ago, zydeco said:

I hope you are correct. But how do we explain all this to someone at Chaeng Wattana who has no idea of Labor Day or how SS processes payments early for holidays?

Perhaps they just wanna see ze monee in ze bank every month, not on ze same day every month.

[KhaoYai]

7 hours ago, Groodman said:

The 40000/65000 Baht has to be from a pension so rental income or over income from the UK cannot be counted. I hope I am wrong in my understanding.

I know someone who has always used rental income from the UK and hopefully will still be able to do so.  The current translation states pension but it also says ' Letter of certification from a Thai bank supported by bank statements showing a pension being transferred to the pensioner’s bank account every month for at least 12 months.'  Other than you telling the bank its pension income, I don't see how a bank could certify that the funds are from a pension.  I suspect that in practice, all they want is the bank to confirm that the cash is received every month.

 

I don't know what happens with international transfers but when I transfer money between UK bank accounts there is an option to include a reference.  If I enter 'pension' as that reference, that's what is stated when the money arrives in the other account - hopefully that will also work with international transfers.

 

Retirement extensions are available for those over 50 so given that in the UK a private pension cannot be drawn until you are at least 55 and state pensions coming in at 65 - which presumably T. I. are aware of - I think you will find that as long as the required amount is received from a bank outside Thailand every month, that will be sufficient.

 

At the end of the day, all they want is to make sure that foreigners living in Thailand can support themselves.  I think you are worrying too much - the final version in English will probably have very similar wording but I would be very surprised if, when you make the application for an extension, you are asked to prove the income is actually from a pension.

 

Also, what is the definition of a 'pension'? I for example, never took out a private pension. I decided that I wanted to be in control so I invested in property instead - property that now provides me with an income.  I regard that as my 'pension'.

Edited January 6, 2019 by KhaoYai

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

me that you're joking that you don't know the meaning of a question mark.

His point was that the question and answers to it were repeatedly posted already. While it's unlikely anyone is going to read through all the posts in this lengthy thread, that issue was raised and answered on the first page and then over and over again.

 

Since the announcement and the point of the thread is changes to what was formerly known as the income method when applying for annual extensions of stay, the money in the bank method was not restated. There is no reasonable assumption that it would be changed since it would be unaffected by the issue of embassy income verification.

 

There was also no mention of O or O-A visas or 90 day reports or filing T.M. 30s since they were unaffected and there is no assumption that they no longer exist simply because they weren't mentioned.

 

it seems the only relevant thing not mentioned was the combination of income and money in the bank method.

 

 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, inwardglee said:

I see people worrying so much that the faster I read the more comments I see, it is not even possible to follow reading. 

 

I have decided to not worry. It is never useful to worry before a difficult situation has happened already. It is early enough to be angry or sad when the bad event has happened, but not just expecting it. 

 

And even if an unpleasant situation has occurred, no use to get mad. Just accept and adapt and do the next swing in life. 

Me too.

 

I have adopted Ubonjoe's way of doing it.

 

Wait until it is official written down from Immigration and see what it is like then.

 

[sambum]

24 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

its as if thai banks are in collusion with immigration to force people to transfer funds to thai banks where the interest paid is a pittance.  why should it matter where you have money as long as you have it?

 

it is very unjust for those that bought houses for their wives and themselves to live in thus used their funds already and may not have sufficient money to transfer in every month.  so will the husbands need to leave thailand and pay rent somewhere else while their wives/family remain in thailand?

 

others bough condos straight out and have been living well on much less than 65000 baht/month.

Agree with what you say except you wouldn't get much interest if your money was in a bank in the UK at the moment - I think it's about 0.5% in most cases! (Obviously someone out there can give me details of accounts in the UK with better rates, but I'm talking in general terms!)

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, carken said:

one year I attempted to point out that 40,000 Baht a month equaled 480,000 a year (12 months X 40,000Baht) so my 39.5000monthly/474,00 yearly was over the 400.000 Baht amount needed to legally meet income requirements ... Thai Imm Officer said no no no you need 40,000 Baht a month and got furious when I tried to explain for a second time the math of 39,500 X 12 months was 74,000 over the yearly income requirement of 400,000 ... I learned my lesson quickly, shut up and paid the tea money so I wouldn't be sent home

Yes, don't point out their rules don't add-up and/or are pointless to begin with - that tends to tick them off even more than not paying an agent to pay them off in the first place.  At some locations, they are already cussing that you are showing up instead of your agent, even before you get started.  Try not to make it worse.

 

4 hours ago, carken said:

Since wife and I have joint bank account In Dec we opened a seperate bank account in my name only and we are now depositing into it 41,000 a month ... I went to Embassy last month and got my last "Income Affidavit" which I will use in April 2019 and after 16 months of depositing 41,000 Baht a month in Apr 2020 I will go for my new NON "O" marraige visa using only my bank book showing monthly deposits of 41,000 Baht ... if things don't work out I could now be spending my last 16 months with my Thai wife and kids in our own home ... or I may be forced go the agent route, which I don't want too .. but Que Sera Sera

I hope those are foreign-sourced deposits.  If so, you will probably be Ok.  If not, consider making it so they are, in the future.

 

Don't forget the Non-O-ME Visa option.  Currently available in some locations w/o financials.  And even if they start asking for financials, you may be able to use an income-affadavit from Your Embassy, in the country where the Thai Embassy is located (they still offer them elsewhere - just not in Thailand any more).

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

It is simply an internal document clarifying the change to the proof of income options. I do not see why anything will be published in the Royal Gazette. The current police orders do not specify how income is proven; that choice appears to be down to immigration/the authorities to decide.

 

This type of notice is often issued to offices whenever clarification is required for the documents required for processing an extension application.

You are right, past Police Orders and Immigration Bureau Orders regarding the criteria and documentation requirements for extensions of stay were apparently only published on the website of the Immigration Bureau. If the document of 26 December 2018 is merely an internal guideline, it may not necessarily be published on the immigration website but hopefully it will be. At the moment it is not on https://www.immigration.go.th/order

[JackThompson]

16 minutes ago, zydeco said:

23 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The goalposts have been moved from a specified "monthly income" (gross income) to "income remitted to Thailand monthly."

Right about that. It's going to be big change for some people. It will push some on the edge to being pushed off the cliff.

Lets focus on helping those folks find ways to pay their home-country bills, while accommodating the new system.  Issues / Solutions include:

• Switch CC payments to one's Thai debit-card(s) (MC/Visa - Bangkok Bank is offering the MC option, now, vs the "union pay" of limited utility in the West).
• Dee-Money for transfers out of Thailand
• Quick international transfers using Crypto currencies (not "buy and hold" as a risky investment - buy from one account and sell immediately to another)
• Rules limiting remittance of money sent to Thailand to other countries to cover overhead costs there
• Tax-implications due to monthly xfers - depending on the type of income, earned current-or-last year, dual-tax treaties, etc

Of course, much depends on how the new rules are actually implemented at local offices - but I intend to continue trying to warn folks of where the "bad apples" are, and how to work around them to stay. 

 

18 minutes ago, watso63 said:

The Embassy letters that were issued on evidence of Pension Income only took into account the gross income so for those that paid tax on that income source, the net amount will be less so having to deposit the minimum 65,000/month in hard cash will be more difficult. The full UK new pension barely makes 30,000 at a 40 baht exchange rate. Tough times ahead methinks.

Assuming the taxes are taken-out before you get your hands on the money, the workaround would be to send over more to cover the tax, the first month, then send the "tax bill" amount back to offset the taxes paid on the next month, etc.  The larger the buffer of cash one has in their foreign account, the less frequently "send back to offset taxes" will be necessary. 

 

Many "passport-country bills" will need to be handled by sending money back due to the nature of the new system.

 

21 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

That's a not insignificant change, particularly for those who don't need to spend 65K per month every month in Thailand, and/or prefer to keep their funds in higher earning investments in their home countries.

Returning some portion to invest it would not violate the rules, which specify the need for an "income of" x - but does not specify how it should/must be spent.

 

3 hours ago, waxpro said:

what is the case if a foreigner living here, married and father of 4 Thai kids,

but his job as international broker, affiliate marketing where his earning come from online,

he has the stable financial statement and supporting his family comfortably,

how to deal with salary and tax receipts, from who or to be paid to who? and for what reason?

Tax issues are involved, if you are remitting income from the year earned.  If you have 400K to park in a Thai bank for 3 months (2 mo before applying and 1-mo approval-period), do that.  If not, you need to get 40K Baht/mo coming into your Thai bank account somehow. 

 

If you can do this out of savings from prior year earnings, that avoids tax issues, and you are set.  If not, then there may be tax implications, but setting that aside, can you get 40K/mo+ coming in "net" every single month?  If so, pay your expenses where ever your business is located, and bring in the 40K/mo+.  But, if your "net" is insufficient, you are looking at bringing in 40K of income before expenses, then remitting some of those expenses back out of your Thai account.