CONFIRMED: Here is exactly what’s needed for retirement & marriage extensions (income method) from 2019

[skatewash]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

It really depends on the individual U.S. banks/CUs or brokerages that you may have accounts with, as the fees for traditional international wire xfers can vary quite widely from place to place. Pib's post above was a very good overview and recap.

 

But in my experience, these days, I've seen some U.S. financial institutions charging much more, up to $50 to $65 for an international xfer. I'm not saying that's the average. I'm saying that's the high end of the range that some banks are actually charging these days.

 

For whatever reason, individual international fund transfers out of U.S. banks are treated like some kind of rare and unusual breed of transaction that the U.S. banks figure none of their customers really typically do. And they price their fees for doing those international xfers accordingly.

 

So, especially if someone is going to be doing 12 of them per year because of Thai Immigration and the U.S. Embassy's cockup, then it really pays to shop around and find the best deal available to you -- $20 to $25 per international wire transfer is probably the low end of the fee range, but there probably a few places that will do international xfers for free, but those are rare, and often not offered as part of generally available accounts.
 

I used Fidelity for this wire transfer to Kenya. It was completely free to me. If you do it through Vanguard, it costs only $10; the fee is waived if you are a Flagship customer (having $1 million or more in Vanguard funds and ETFs at Vanguard). By comparison Bank of America charges $45 for an international wire transfer sent in U.S. dollars. Credit unions aren’t necessarily better. Alliant Credit Union charges $50 for an international wire.

 

Of course, right now, AFAIK, there's also every expectation that much less expensive Transferwise transfers to BKK Bank "should" be OK in meeting Thai Immigration's requirement because they've been getting properly coded as international transactions.

 

 

4

 

Maybe the following will be helpful advice for those who find  themselves needing to send monthly international transfers from the US to Thailand:

 

Quote

When you need to send an international wire transfer, doing it through a brokerage account typically costs you less than doing it through a bank or credit union.

I used Fidelity for this wire transfer to Kenya. It was completely free to me. If you do it through Vanguard, it costs only $10; the fee is waived if you are a Flagship customer (having $1 million or more in Vanguard funds and ETFs at Vanguard). By comparison Bank of America charges $45 for an international wire transfer sent in U.S. dollars. Credit unions aren’t necessarily better. Alliant Credit Union charges $50 for an international wire.

 

-- https://thefinancebuff.com/free-international-wire-transfer-fidelity-vanguard.html

Edited January 10, 2019 by skatewash

[BertM]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

(Fidelity, BTW, has among the lowest intl xfer fees for their clients that are available in the U.S., IIRC).

 

Also, if you don't have a Fidelity account, Chase Bank waives its international wire xfer fees if you maintain Private Client status of > $250k or more. I was going to set up a Fidelity wire xfer last time I was home in Dec, but the wire authorization form requires a Medallion signature guarantee, so I didn't bother. I use Chase.

Edited January 10, 2019 by BertM

[DogNo1]

Fidelity wire transfers are free for me but the Medallion Signature Guarantee is a problem   I wonder if the guarantee could be done at a branch of a US bank here.  I also wonder whether there is a US bank branch at the embassy or in the MAC compound.

[JLCrab]

4 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

I wonder

https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resources-of-u-s-citizens/notaries-public/signature-medallion-guarantees/

[jacko45k]

8 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

BS. It is explicitly Thailand you need your glasses checked

 

 

 

 

That mention of Thailand refers to the 'letter of certification', ie the letter from the bank. My post was regarding the required 'bank statement', showing money transfer etc. The prior discussion I quoted was more about the bank statement portion, and others were discussing showing evidence from the originating source, as Thai bank statements did not always show transfers as foreign.

I was actually putting forward my view that only Thai bank account statements will be accepted, not other supporting paperwork. A view that seems to match yours.

 

Sometimes one needs a brain behind the glasses and to read the post quoted and context, before passing a dim, attacking comment. Have a good day.

Edited January 10, 2019 by jacko45k

[steve73]

12 hours ago, Olmate said:

If using Swift to ensure transfers are acceptable, what would a ball park figure be for the cost of 12 x 65k? Is it worth the added work for these other workarounds?Depends on each bank I know but a guesstimate .Sorry if it’s been asked previously.

I posted the following comparison for a UK bank yesterday on the other currently running TW/Kasikorn thread..

 

It may help.

 

 

19 hours ago, steve73 said:

I've just done some comparisons between using TW or a direct bank transfer from UK Nationwide (GBP20 for SWIFT) to Kasikorn for the 65,000 bt/mon.

 

Using the current rates quoted by both TW and Kbank at the same instant, a bank to bank SWIFT is 39.76 GBP more expensive, or 477 GBP over the year.

If you need to send in 2 tranches each month the additional cost is almost double (71/mon or 850/yr).  If you receive 3 separate pensions and cannot wait to consolidate them then it'll be more again.

 

One thing to bearing mind though, is that TW quote a fixed rate which allows you to send EXACTLY 65,000bt.  Using the bank-to-bank SWIFT, the rate is only fixed when the cash arrives (and the receiving bank decides to convert it) which could result in a lower rate being applied.  Since you don't want less than 65,000bt to arrive, it would make sense to send perhaps an extra 1% or so. 

 

Clearly there are significant savings and other benefits in being able to use Transferwise (or a similar low cost system), and if this means opening a new account with BBL to receive these funds then I think it's worth doing, if you need to rely on this method.

 

Note:  UK bank fees for SWIFT varies from around 5 to 25 GBP, so my example above may not apply to all...  YMMV.

[gk10002000]

On 1/8/2019 at 7:16 PM, jacko45k said:

Well, transfers made 12-1 months previous certainly do not prove income for the next 12 months that the extension will be valid for. Having funds for that would surely need to be a lump sum, or checked for each month as they come in! But let us be thankful for TI offering some variety of ways to get extensions.

They had a variety of ways before.  This new method is crap and the Thais should not be congratulated for this

[JLCrab]

10 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

They had a variety of ways before.

Yes -- whether you had the required monthly income or not.

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

They had a variety of ways before.  This new method is crap and the Thais should not be congratulated for this

Yes-I agree- on the surface it seems simple but when one gets into the details it becomes onerous-

-Can't really use transfer wise unless one has a Bangkok Bank Account and then one transfers that goes through TMB bank shows as a domestic transfer

-Have to contact US/UK/AU Bank each month to make the transfer-watch the exchange rate- watch the date.

-Make sure you take the book each month to update as some banks won't provide more than a 6 month record.

-Make sure you plan your travel around certain dates so you can make sure you can do your transfer of funds on time

-Make sure you visit your bank to get your bank letter and explain to your branch the requirements when they have no idea what you are talking about.

-Make sure you get an Immigration Officer who knows what the new income method is and instead says only money in the bank.

-Make sure you also carry your proof of income source since some IO's will ask for it.

 

Can I do it- yes.  Will it be pleasant- No.  Does any of it prove Income stream- No.  

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Yes -- whether you had the required monthly income or not.

You still don't need the required income.  The only thing they have done is make life more difficult for the honest people 

[JLCrab]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

You still don't need the required income. 

Well if the Thai IMM folks haven't figured that out yet, that's their problem.

[Olmate]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Yes-I agree- on the surface it seems simple but when one gets into the details it becomes onerous-

-Can't really use transfer wise unless one has a Bangkok Bank Account and then one transfers that goes through TMB bank shows as a domestic transfer

-Have to contact US/UK/AU Bank each month to make the transfer-watch the exchange rate- watch the date.

-Make sure you take the book each month to update as some banks won't provide more than a 6 month record.

-Make sure you plan your travel around certain dates so you can make sure you can do your transfer of funds on time

-Make sure you visit your bank to get your bank letter and explain to your branch the requirements when they have no idea what you are talking about.

-Make sure you get an Immigration Officer who knows what the new income method is and instead says only money in the bank.

-Make sure you also carry your proof of income source since some IO's will ask for it.

 

Can I do it- yes.  Will it be pleasant- No.  Does any of it prove Income stream- No.  

And the cost of all of this is way too much, some said the stat dec was pricey!

[mtls2005]

12 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Kevin, I can't remember, is that signature requirement just a one-time initial setup thing with Fidelity, or are they going to require one or the other every time someone goes to do a new transfer to a repeat recipient?

 

I had thought it was only a one-time initial setup requirement for any particular transfer recipient.  (Fidelity, BTW, has among the lowest intl xfer fees for their clients that are available in the U.S., IIRC).

 

 

During a trip back home over the holidays, I set up Standing International Wire Transfer orders at Fidelity to both Bangkok Bank (direct, no intermediary) and SCB (Citi is their intermediary), in person at a Fidelity branch, so no need for the Medallion thingy. These took a week to become active (due to the holidays). These require (for me anyway) transfer initiation via a telephone call (I've enrolled in their voice reco program, and use a VoIP number which is associated with my accounts and receives SMSes) with a Live Agent ("transfer specialist"); they need to read you some Dodd-Frank information. I cannot initiate a transfer online as I can with other domestic transfers currently associated with my Fidelity accounts. They do not charge me any fee. I receive an SMS from Fidelity while still on the call. A "Standing" order means it can be used multiple times, I've used it twice so far. I initiated my second order at 06:30 Bangkok time yesterday, and the funds posted at Bangkok Bank ~ 09:30 today, so ~ 27 hours. I received the TT "buy" rate of 31.78 less the 200 baht minimum fee (I transferred $2,200). I received SMSes from Bangkok Bank (on my Thai mobile of record with them) with all the details, (amount, rate, fee, "transferred from abroad"), online it shows as an "International Transfer" and is coded "FTT" in my passbook.

 

I plan to have 800,000 (3 months) as a back-up and try (initially) to go with the 65,000 monthly for my next extension of stay application.

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by mtls2005

[jimn]

3 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

They had a variety of ways before.  This new method is crap and the Thais should not be congratulated for this

I entirely agree with you. There are so many differing views and confused people with this issue. Unfortunately there are going to be many peple especially the older retirees caught out by this. For me personally I intend to use my BE income letter when my extension is due in May 2019. For 2020 I need to start planning because if I am going to transfer 65k monthly I need to start in April/May this year. 

I am however reluctant to do this. Why?

(1) I am only in Thailand 7 months per year, if I transfer my company pension monthly to Thailand what money do I use when in the UK. (2) Even when I am in Thailand I have financial commitments in the UK (Council Tax, Power/Water Bills, insurance etc), as I still maintain a property there. These take up about 15-20% of my pension. (3) Ridiculous pound to baht exchange rate at the moment, caused by Brexit worries. (4) Once one starts transferring UK state pension to Thailand you lose any future increases. 

Yes guys sorry this is so long winded, but I am sure there are bits in here that affect many of you.

Its why for the very first time and I hate to say it, but using an agent in Pattaya for 12,900 baht all in may be my best option.

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, jimn said:

es guys sorry this is so long winded, but I am sure there are bits in here that affect many of you.

Its why for the very first time and I hate to say it, but using an agent in Pattaya for 12,900 baht all in may be my best option.

I also agree--  I have my accounts in the US as I have commitments there  that need to be taken care of monthly.  I cannot transfer all monies each month and then transfer back again. Costly and ridiculous.

The bottom line is none of the new change proves any income and IMO some offices will still ask for individual proof. And if they do continue to ask why not accept it in the first place without all the monthly hassle.

 

 

 

[Robins]

Does pulling at least 65,000 a month out of a Thai bank through a Thai ATM machine count as having money in a Thai bank?

They just don't seem to get it, many pensions will not deposit benefits directly into a foreign bank. 

Unfortunately those thermal printed slips most ATM machines spit out fade and become unreadable within a few months. 

Whether here or at home there is nothing worse than trying to deal with a god damned government bureaucracy.  

Edited January 11, 2019 by Robins

[JLCrab]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The bottom line is none of the new change proves any income

So if you don't have any income to make the deposits in the forthcoming year, then you won't be able to get an extension next year unless you cook the books.

 

It seems for the purposes of this extension method, they want you to have 65K+ baht available each month to spend in the Kingdom not to hear reasons why you don't want or need to have 65K+ baht to spend each month in the Kingdom.

[Pattaya46]

43 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

// The only thing they have done is make life more difficult for the honest people 

If your are talking of your Embassy :

- True 

If you are talking of Thai Immigration :

- False . It would be far worse if they had not made this amendment.

[jimn]

7 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

If your are talking of your Embassy :

- True 

If you are talking of Thai Immigration :

- False . It would be far worse if they had not made this amendment.

Why dont they just say that there has to be 65k in your bank on the 1st of each month. Why the money has to be expensively sent from abroad escapes me. Keep the 800k seasoning method if they want. For me the 7 months I am here I just bring in a load of cash and exchange it weekly as required and use my no fee Haifax Clarity Mastercard for food shopping, cinema and eating out. Thailand is years behind the Western world where cash is gradually being superceeded. Problem is they expect everyone else to be the same.

[Thaidream]

30 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

So if you don't have any income to make the deposits in the forthcoming year, then you won't be able to get an extension next year unless you cook the books.

 

It seems for the purposes of this extension method, they want you to have 65K+ baht available each month to spend in the Kingdom not to hear reasons why you don't want or need to have 65K+ baht to spend each month in the Kingdom.

The prior proof of an income stream was simple and easy- the Embassies- instead of working out a solution- which is what diplomats are supposed to do- took the easy way out- stopping the letters. It is inters sting to note the other 100+ Embassies are happy to provide the letters. 

Of course some people lied- the same people who will continue to lie and get by very easily.  

 

I have never lied and the majority have never lied- I can easily provide proof of income- a few papers.  Now, people are going to have a hassle transferring funds monthly. Those using Transfer wise- need to print out 12 pages of transfers to prove they had an international Transfer. 

My way of proving income with 1 or 2 pieces of paper as opposed to showing 12 transfers in a bank book plus a bank letters and possibly  12 more pieces of paper to prove the transfer were from abroad plus carrying your actual proof anyway doesn't sound  like the KISS principle- keeping it simple.

It sounds like the bureaucratic crap that it is. Am I glad Thai Imm kept the income method- Of course.  However- they haven't kept it simple and they could have very easily.

[JLCrab]

13 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

However- they haven't kept it simple and they could have very easily.

Great -- do you now feel better?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

57 minutes ago, Robins said:

Does pulling at least 65,000 a month out of a Thai bank through a Thai ATM machine count as having money in a Thai bank?

They just don't seem to get it, many pensions will not deposit benefits directly into a foreign bank. 

Unfortunately those thermal printed slips most ATM machines spit out fade and become unreadable within a few months. 

Whether here or at home there is nothing worse than trying to deal with a god damned government bureaucracy.  

 

I would say at this point, there's zero indication that ATM withdrawal slips from machines here in Thailand are going to satisfy Thai Immigration. Because, among various other reasons, you'd still need a Thai bank to issue a letter certifying that you had 12 monthly foreign deposits into your Thai bank account. And ATM withdrawals aren't that!

 

I sympathize with you, agree with your points, and am in the same situation -- my U.S.-based government pension provider also will not direct deposit into ANY non-U.S. account, so I'm in the same boat in that regard. But ATM withdrawal slips aren't going to cut it, under this new TI regime.

 

 

 

[Mango Bob]

18 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The prior proof of an income stream was simple and easy- the Embassies- instead of working out a solution- which is what diplomats are supposed to do- took the easy way out- stopping the letters. It is inters sting to note the other 100+ Embassies are happy to provide the letters. 

Of course some people lied- the same people who will continue to lie and get by very easily.  

 

I have never lied and the majority have never lied- I can easily provide proof of income- a few papers.  Now, people are going to have a hassle transferring funds monthly. Those using Transfer wise- need to print out 12 pages of transfers to prove they had an international Transfer. 

My way of proving income with 1 or 2 pieces of paper as opposed to showing 12 transfers in a bank book plus a bank letters and possibly  12 more pieces of paper to prove the transfer were from abroad plus carrying your actual proof anyway doesn't sound  like the KISS principle- keeping it simple.

It sounds like the bureaucratic crap that it is. Am I glad Thai Imm kept the income method- Of course.  However- they haven't kept it simple and they could have very easily.

I used TW this week to test it.   The money was withdrawn and paid to TW on my bank's transaction.  TW receipt shows the money was transferred to Bangkok Bank.   Bangkok Bank statement in my Saving Account Book shows an international transfer.  I don't know what your problem is but I can do that 12 times a year with more than 65,000 baht with no problem.   It seems only those who got a Retirement or Marriage Visa knew the rules but didn't play the game right and now they are crying about it.   All along it was always 65,000 baht a month but people try to play games and not follow the rules.  So blame it the the Embassy or TI and not you.   It's just too damn bad.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Mango Bob

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, Robins said:

They just don't seem to get it, many pensions will not deposit benefits directly into a foreign bank. 

Discussed many times already 

No need of your pension paid in Thailand; You just need 65k sent monthly. 

So continue to get your pension(s) and/or other revenues paid in your country,

and organize a monthly transfer of at least 65k from your home account.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

30 minutes ago, Mango Bob said:

  All along it was always 65,000 baht a month but people try to play games and not follow the rules.  So blame it the the Embassy or TI and not you.   It's just too damn bad.

 

Except you're WRONG...

 

The rule BEFORE was you had to have 65,000 baht of income, but you didn't have to show it arriving into Thailand each and every month. It could stay entirely in home country accounts and be spent here by ATM withdrawals, debit or credit card transactions, etc etc...  And that was FULLY and HONESTLY complying with the rules.

 

NOW, for those without Embassy income letters relying on monthly income, the money has to be transferred monthly into Thailand and deposited into a Thai bank regardless. Doesn't matter if you need all of that amount or not. Doesn't matter if your pension won't direct deposit to a foreign bank. Doesn't count local spending you may already be doing with home country bank cards or via home country card ATM withdrawals. Doesn't matter if you have home country bills to pay out of your monthly income. Not to mention, for most folks, having to pay a lot of extra international funds transfer fees that never had to be paid before.

 

So stop accusing people here of playing games and not following the rules in the past. Lots of people followed the rules exactly in the past, and now, are getting screwed over because the rules have changed and been made much more onerous. And that has nothing to do with people not having enough income to qualify either before or now.

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Olmate]

9 minutes ago, Mango Bob said:

I used TW this week to test it.   The money was withdrawn and paid to TW on my bank's transaction.  TW receipt shows the money was transferred to Bangkok Bank.   Bangkok Bank statement in my Saving Account Book shows an international transfer.  I don't know what your problem is but I can do that 12 times a year with more than 65,000 baht with no problem.   It seems only those who got a Retirement or Marriage Visa knew the rules but didn't play the game right and now they are crying about it.   All along it was always 65,000 baht a month but people try to play games and not follow the rules.  So blame it the the Embassy or TI and not you.   It's just too damn bad.

Who will you blame when one of your monthlies gets knocked back at extension time for incorrect coding error? Oh my mistake too bad!

[JackThompson]

14 minutes ago, Mango Bob said:

I used TW this week to test it.   The money was withdrawn and paid to TW on my bank's transaction.  TW receipt shows the money was transferred to Bangkok Bank.   Bangkok Bank statement in my Saving Account Book shows an international transfer.  I don't know what your problem is but I can do that 12 times a year with more than 65,000 baht with no problem.   It seems only those who got a Retirement or Marriage Visa knew the rules but didn't play the game right and now they are crying about it.   All along it was always 65,000 baht a month but people try to play games and not follow the rules.  So blame it the the Embassy or TI and not you.   It's just too damn bad.

Did you bother to read all the reports of others (across multiple threads) saying they did TW transfers that Did Not show up as foreign-xfers - or did sometimes, but not other times? 

 

The "game players" are the IOs and agent-buddies - set to make a killing every time someone's monthly-xfer has a problem, so they "don't qualify" - even though they Do Have the Required Income.

 

1 hour ago, jimn said:

Its why for the very first time and I hate to say it, but using an agent in Pattaya for 12,900 baht all in may be my best option.

That was immigration's plan, all along.  But I cannot say I blame you one bit - especially as a part-time person here. 

 

Since you do go back to the UK every year, you could consider the Non-OA Visa, also - though still could be more trouble/hassle than immigration's "my agent buddy" offer.

[JLCrab]

8 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Doesn't matter if you need all of that amount or not. Doesn't matter if your pension won't direct deposit to a foreign bank. Doesn't count local spending you may already be doing with home country bank cards or via home country card ATM withdrawals. Doesn't matter if you have home country bills to pay out of your monthly income. Not to mention, for most folks, having to pay a lot of extra international funds transfer fees that never had to be paid before.

So it seems what they have decided is that, for purposes of this extension, they want you to have 65K+ baht each month cash in a Thai bank account to spend in Thailand -- and if you prefer not to do that, they I guess will say just put 800K baht in the Thai bank account.

[JLCrab]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The "game players" are the IOs and agent-buddies - set to make a killing every time someone's monthly-xfer has a problem, so they "don't qualify" - even though they Do Have the Required Income.

Farang 1: How many farang does it take to change a light bulb?

Farang 2: I don't know -- I'll ask my agent and get back to you

[Moonlover]

15 minutes ago, Olmate said:

16 minutes ago, Mango Bob said:

I used TW this week to test it.   The money was withdrawn and paid to TW on my bank's transaction.  TW receipt shows the money was transferred to Bangkok Bank.   Bangkok Bank statement in my Saving Account Book shows an international transfer.  I don't know what your problem is but I can do that 12 times a year with more than 65,000 baht with no problem.   It seems only those who got a Retirement or Marriage Visa knew the rules but didn't play the game right and now they are crying about it.   All along it was always 65,000 baht a month but people try to play games and not follow the rules.  So blame it the the Embassy or TI and not you.   It's just too damn bad.

 

15 minutes ago, Olmate said:

Who will you blame when one of your monthlies gets knocked back at extension time for incorrect coding error? Oh my mistake too bad!

Firstly Olmate, it will be the bank, with their letter that confirms that the credits are from a foreign source, not TI interpreting the myriad different codes.

 

Secondly a T/W transaction can easily be verified as a foreign credit by presenting the transaction slip.

 

Sorry, your point null and void.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Moonlover