Notify change of address, and TM30

[roberta]

I am about to move to a rented condominium in Bangkok.  I have a new non-O visa for retirement, issued by Nonthaburi Immigration, where i have been living.  I have yet to do my first extension, so I am very concerned to follow the letter of the law as much as possible. 

I intend to sign the 12-month rental contract on Saturday and move in at the condo the same day.   I have planned to go to Immigration in Bangkok on the following Monday, after reporting my residence there to the Juristic Person's office at the condo. 

I understand that I will be required to submit form TM28, and presumably they will need to see my passport, and my rental contract as proof of address.  Are there any other documents which I may need to take with me? 

In particular I am uncertain about the form TM30.  Am I responsible for that, or is it the owner, or the condo juristic person office who must submit that form?  I am dealing only with a property agent, and have no contact with the owner.  Anyway I do not see how I could possibly ask him to spend a whole business day to go to Immigration and bring ownership and ID documents just because he happens to have rented to a foreigner!  I have read as many old posts as I can find on this topic and now feel more confused than ever.  So I must appeal here for some help and clarification.   

[jackdd]

A TM28 should not be required.

In other recent threads some people reported that they were fined for a missing TM30, so this seems to be required now.

The title of the TM30 explains who has to submit it: NOTIFICATION FROM FOR HOUSE-MASTER, OWNER OR THE POSSESSOR OF THE RESIDENCEWHERE ALIEN HAS STAYED

One of these persons has to submit the TM30. If the rental contract is in your name you are the possessor of the property, so you can report yourself. The juristic person or the agent (the owner could of course out source it to the agent with a power of attorney, but i doubt he did this) doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

In another post somebody reported that he was required to even show the chanote of the condo when doing his extension.

 

So to be prepared for the future you should insist on getting a signed copy of the chanote, house book and owners id card for immigration purposes.

[roberta]

Thank you very much, Jack for your help.  I have asked the agent to have all those documents ready for contract signing on Saturday, and she will ask the owner to bring them.  I read the thread you quoted and find it shocking that things have changed so much.  I lived here from 2013 until mid 2017 on retirement non-O extensions.  Came back again last November, but old visa expired so have to start over.  I used to notify change of address by simply giving the new address on my next 90 day report.  Never any complaint.  Never had to ask a landlord for anything; rental contract was all I need - if they even asked for it, which was rarely.  

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, jackdd said:

So to be prepared for the future you should insist on getting a signed copy of the chanote, house book and owners id card for immigration purposes.

@robertaTo really cover the worst-case, I would have Chanote and House Book for your condo, ID-Card of Owner and his personal House-Book, plus Rental Contract - everything signed by the owner.  They are demanding these for "based on Marriage to a Thai" applications now at CW, as well as some less-friendly "family-based extension" desks in other offices.

This full list might never be needed for "based on retirement" extensions - but if starting a new lease, best to get it all now (since landlords often don't want to give all this), and be prepared for whatever may come in the future.

[jacko45k]

Crikey, there were complaints that people were being pushed towards using agents, it's that or buying your own condo!

[roberta]

OK, even more things to add to the list.  I am not at all sure that the owner will be both able and willing to provide all that.  I know that if I had a house for rent in my native country and an immigrant wanted to rent it, and asked for all those private documents I would never consent.  I have to wonder why Immigration is doing this.  How does it benefit Thailand?  Retirees are almost all peaceful law-abiding people who bring money from abroad and spend it in Thailand, benefiting the economy.  What reason could they have to want to deter people such as I who only want settle in a comfortable and affordable country?  Unfortunately, apart than the Philippines, which I have tried and did not like, I cannot think of any other country where I could retire with a long-term or annually renewable visa,  guaranteed by a lump sum rather than a pension income.

[jackdd]

8 minutes ago, roberta said:

I have to wonder why Immigration is doing this.

They do this so you use an agent, when you do your extension through an agent all these documents are not required because the agent pays money to the IO

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, roberta said:

I have to wonder why Immigration is doing this. 

They want it to confirm that the person shown as the owner on the rental agreement is truly the owner. Thai's have to show their ID cards and copies of their house book for manys things.

[from the home of CC]

imo - the law makers here do not really believe that people that live here on a permanent or semi permanent basis are a big benefit to Thailand. There's definitely a lot more to be made by short term tourism  plus they would be dealing with less complaints. If they had thought it was a big benefit to the country they would of streamlined the processes. Could be worse though, if they chose it to be.

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, from the home of CC said:

There's definitely a lot more to be made by short term tourism

You mean like all the Chinese tourists who spend 6000THB on their whole trip while leaving a bad impression for visitors from other countries so that these people probably go somewhere else in the future? ????

 

[ocddave]

1 minute ago, jackdd said:

You mean like all the Chinese tourists who spend 6000THB on their whole trip while leaving a bad impression for visitors from other countries so that these people probably go somewhere else in the future? ????

Makes you wonder, because I think I spent over 1,000,000 baht in my first month here....LOL

[JackThompson]

15 hours ago, jackdd said:

You mean like all the Chinese tourists who spend 6000THB on their whole trip while leaving a bad impression for visitors from other countries so that these people probably go somewhere else in the future? ????

 

Yes, when a free or discounted VOA makes a visitor's trip possible, it is clear that the average longer-staying (visa-trip every 3 mo) farang is spending far more, and will much less infrastructure overhead.

 

The tour-buses jam-up traffic horribly (often gridlocking intersections) and tear up the roads, costing big money to put in "highway grade" roads designed for heavy truck-traffic, where this would normally not be required.  Then you have the crowding which drives away others, the extra staff to process large-numbers of low-spenders, etc.

 

17 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

imo - the law makers here do not really believe that people that live here on a permanent or semi permanent basis are a big benefit to Thailand. There's definitely a lot more to be made by short term tourism  plus they would be dealing with less complaints. If they had thought it was a big benefit to the country they would of streamlined the processes. Could be worse though, if they chose it to be.

There seems to be divided opinion in the ranks on this.  Some see us as a benefit, and where they control the amphoe, entry-point or office, there are few problems.  Others see us as something from "nusance" (to use a nicer word) and/or "extortion-target" - which is where we get the bad-reports. 

 

If there were a consensus on us, it would already be worse - and the worst-practices would be made official-law/rule/policy, and consistently applied everywhere.

[JackThompson]

17 hours ago, roberta said:

OK, even more things to add to the list.  I am not at all sure that the owner will be both able and willing to provide all that.  I know that if I had a house for rent in my native country and an immigrant wanted to rent it, and asked for all those private documents I would never consent. 

Yes, immigration know this.  If they wanted to find out this info, they could get it directly from the land-office.  It is nothing to do with the veracity of our extension-request.

 

17 hours ago, roberta said:

I have to wonder why Immigration is doing this.  How does it benefit Thailand? 

Corruption doesn't benefit a country.  Not only does it undermine faith in, and respect for, govt institutions - but every one of us who is driven away takes several Thai-job-salaries out of the country, denying opportunity to the citizens.

 

17 hours ago, roberta said:

Retirees are almost all peaceful law-abiding people who bring money from abroad and spend it in Thailand, benefiting the economy.  What reason could they have to want to deter people such as I who only want settle in a comfortable and affordable country? 

From their angle, why do we "deserve" to live as we do?  In some cases - xenophobia on the surface, to justify their jealousy/resentment of our financial-situation (they don't see how we worked/struggled when younger - sacrificing comfort to save, etc), which may be the underlying psychological rationale for extorting us.

 

There is also the factor of Thai/Western relationships, where a person of low-status can marry a foreigner and obtain a higher standard of living, without coming from the "right bloodline to deserve" a higher standard of living (from a twisted perspective).  Meritocracy is not a universal perspective, and upward-mobility can be threatening to those who know their status was not earned through hard-work combined with ability.

 

17 hours ago, roberta said:

Unfortunately, apart than the Philippines, which I have tried and did not like, I cannot think of any other country where I could retire with a long-term or annually renewable visa,  guaranteed by a lump sum rather than a pension income.

In Cambodia - no income or lump-sum needed.  In Vietnam or Laos, its the usual "visa from an agent" bit (same as offered here for those who either don't meet the financials, or get caught in an IO's tea-money-trap).  Whether any of those suit, personally, is another question though. 

[roberta]

I move tomorrow, and have just realized that I am still not really clear about what I must do.  I have downloaded a TM.30 form.  Who must complete it?  I, or the landlord?  If the landlord must do it, can I take the form to Immigration and have it accepted?  

[asiaexpat]

Roberta, tell your agent you expect them to comply with Immigration regulations and submit a TM 30 and require that they give you a copy of the receipt (you may need that later.) Also, complete a TM 28 Change of address and mail or take it to CW as soon as you sign the lease. While CW has in the past been lax on this rule the new head of Immigration is keen on knowing where foreigners live. My resent contacts with CW indicate they are following the rules to the letter.

[roberta]

If I can persuade the owner to fill out the TM.30 and provide signed copies of the title deed, his house book and ID card (as others here have recommended), can I take all this paperwork, together with my TM.28 to CW in person?  I don't think it at all likely that he will agree to go there himself to file the TM.30

 

[ubonjoe]

9 hours ago, roberta said:

If I can persuade the owner to fill out the TM.30 and provide signed copies of the title deed, his house book and ID card (as others here have recommended), can I take all this paperwork, together with my TM.28 to CW in person?  I don't think it at all likely that he will agree to go there himself to file the TM.30

 

Yes you can.

[roberta]

I successfully reported my address this morning.  I had every document the officer asked for, and she asked for every document I had with me. These were as follows:-

 

1. Form TM.30 as completed by the owner of the apartment

2. Copy of title deed of owner to this property

3. Copy of contract for purchase of condo by owner

4. Copy of blue house-book for the condo

5. copy of owner's ID card

6. cc front page of my passport

7. cc page with arrival stamp

8. cc page with current visa and permission to stay

9. cc TM.6 departure card

10. cc Rental Contract - and sight of the original

11. receipt for notification by TM.30 of my previous address.

12.  and of course, my actual passport

 

Without ThaiVisa and the good people who have helped me here with information and advice I cannot imagine how I could have succeeded at the first attempt.  I am grateful to all, and hope this little check-list might prove useful to somebody in the future.

[thailien8]

On 1/14/2019 at 4:40 PM, roberta said:

I successfully reported my address this morning.  I had every document the officer asked for, and she asked for every document I had with me. These were as follows:-

 

1. Form TM.30 as completed by the owner of the apartment

2. Copy of title deed of owner to this property

3. Copy of contract for purchase of condo by owner

4. Copy of blue house-book for the condo

5. copy of owner's ID card

6. cc front page of my passport

7. cc page with arrival stamp

8. cc page with current visa and permission to stay

9. cc TM.6 departure card

10. cc Rental Contract - and sight of the original

11. receipt for notification by TM.30 of my previous address.

12.  and of course, my actual passport

 

Without ThaiVisa and the good people who have helped me here with information and advice I cannot imagine how I could have succeeded at the first attempt.  I am grateful to all, and hope this little check-list might prove useful to somebody in the future.

Roberta, my congratulations!

However, your amazing ability to get all of the required documents does not inspire confidence in my visit tomorrow to Jomtien Immigration.  

I am in the same boat as you were, but mine has more leaks.  Specifically, the owner of the lovely condo that I just moved into yesterday is now traveling abroad, and will not be back in Pattaya for a long time.  Her friend (not the owner) gave me the key, took my money, wrote me a contract and a receipt.  She had no idea how to get required documents 2, 3, 4, or 5.  

 

So so my question is, should I try to get legal with my TM30 at Jomtien Immigration, or would I be better off just letting it slide for 6 months until I am outta here?  

[JackThompson]

8 hours ago, thailien8 said:

Roberta, my congratulations!

However, your amazing ability to get all of the required documents does not inspire confidence in my visit tomorrow to Jomtien Immigration.  

I am in the same boat as you were, but mine has more leaks.  Specifically, the owner of the lovely condo that I just moved into yesterday is now traveling abroad, and will not be back in Pattaya for a long time.  Her friend (not the owner) gave me the key, took my money, wrote me a contract and a receipt.  She had no idea how to get required documents 2, 3, 4, or 5.  

 

So so my question is, should I try to get legal with my TM30 at Jomtien Immigration, or would I be better off just letting it slide for 6 months until I am outta here?  

If you need a service from Jomtien immigration (other than a retirement-extension), they will insist on the TM-30 before providing it.  I am not sure what you use to stay in Thailand, but if you can legally avoid that office for 6-months, that would be ideal. 

Another workaround is to use an agent for the service.  Immigration take a payoff of part of the agent's fee, then don't require most things you would need to get honest, in-person service.  This is what they are hoping for, and why they create all these undocumented, artificial and pointless hurdles to begin with.

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

If you need a service from Jomtien immigration (other than a retirement-extension), they will insist on the TM-30 before providing it. 

I believe those on a retirement extension are not pressed to have a recent or valid TM 30 when attending Jomtiem immigration for other needs too. I have done a residence letter and 90 day reporting recently, re-entry some time ago, and even submitted a TM 30 for a guest at my place, but not for myself! Heaven knows what the criteria is!

[DrJack54]

28 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

I believe those on a retirement extension are not pressed to have a recent or valid TM 30 when attending Jomtiem immigration for other needs too. I have done a residence letter and 90 day reporting recently, re-entry some time ago, and even submitted a TM 30 for a guest at my place, but not for myself! Heaven knows what the criteria is!

Jacko, slightly off topic however Op has a good result. You mentioned obtaining residence certificate. I need one from CW. My worry is I have never done 90 day report (exit los every couple weeks) I did tm30 several yrs ago, by post. Do not have receipt "notification". Every annual extension has been with same lease condo. Am I up for fine or issue when I go cw for residence certificate. Need for drivers license.

Ta

[jacko45k]

19 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Jacko, slightly off topic however Op has a good result. You mentioned obtaining residence certificate. I need one from CW. My worry is I have never done 90 day report (exit los every couple weeks) I did tm30 several yrs ago, by post. Do not have receipt "notification". Every annual extension has been with same lease condo. Am I up for fine or issue when I go cw for residence certificate. Need for drivers license.

Ta

I use Jomtiem so better someone from that office answer. Like me you will simply worry if this time you will be hit with a fine, as we all will one day! ????

[farangx]

On 1/10/2019 at 11:02 AM, jackdd said:

You mean like all the Chinese tourists who spend 6000THB on their whole trip while leaving a bad impression for visitors from other countries so that these people probably go somewhere else in the future? ????

 

Hotels I know like them because they don't complain and can put up with room conditions.  It is also easy to collect from them more than a billion bucks from VOA fees alone in a year.

[thailien8]

11 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I use Jomtiem so better someone from that office answer. Like me you will simply worry if this time you will be hit with a fine, as we all will one day! ????

Yes indeed, I was hit with this fine when I was a tenant in a Pattaya guesthouse in 2017.   When I tried to renew my retirement visa,  I was directed upstairs (this was before the current room at the left) where it was explained to me that my landlord had not reported my stay to Immigration.  So this was somehow now my fault....  

I would need to have my landlord roll on down to Jomtien Immig to register my stay;  if not, a fine would have to be paid!  But by whom?  Well obviously by me, since I was the victim standing there, needing a visa extension based on retirement.  They initially wanted 4,000 baht.  I pleaded poverty and ended up paying 2,000.

For that, I got a hastily written receipt stapled in my passport.

 

This receipt has proved useful, as I have traveled out of Thailand and returned since, without needing to re-affirm my stay at the same guesthouse.

 

Yesterday I moved to a high-rise condo on the beach that I have long fantasized about.  Wanting to avoid problems, I made the within 24-hours journey to Jomtien.  I was given queue ticket #59, when the number up at the special room at the left was #008.

 

I went next door to the lovely hotel with restaurant and pool to order lunch.  Service was slow; I spent over an hour there, luckily returning to Immig when #052 was on the board.  A short wait and I was seated in front of a smiling lady who processed my papers and stapled the new TM 30 receipt in my passport.

 

As a renting tenant, not the owner, my question is why did I feel a strong need to do this, when it is not (theoretically) my responsibility?  And why do I feel a strong relief to have this third piece of paper stapled into my passport, along with my recent 90-day report receipt, and of course my TM6 receipt?

No wonder Jomtien Immigration is a madhouse.

 

 

[JackThompson]

10 hours ago, thailien8 said:

As a renting tenant, not the owner, my question is why did I feel a strong need to do this, when it is not (theoretically) my responsibility?  

If you were in a hotel, you'd be in the clear.  But because you rent a condo on a lease, that shifts the responsibility (according to them / interpretation of terms). 

 

You did the right thing to CYA.  The TM-30 desk there is generally helpful, if you show you are making a good-faith effort to adhere to their dictates. 

 

Of course, a triplicate form of address-verification (TM-30 + 90-day + TM-6) is pointless and inefficient - but at least it is achievable without paying them off via an agent to the tune of thousands of baht (for now, anyway).

[jackdd]

11 hours ago, thailien8 said:

As a renting tenant, not the owner, my question is why did I feel a strong need to do this, when it is not (theoretically) my responsibility?

If you are renting the place in your name you are the "possessor" and thus have the same obligation as the owner.

[Bill Miller]

On 1/11/2019 at 2:57 PM, roberta said:

I move tomorrow, and have just realized that I am still not really clear about what I must do.  I have downloaded a TM.30 form.  Who must complete it?  I, or the landlord?  If the landlord must do it, can I take the form to Immigration and have it accepted?  

I wound up having to pay a fine for not having a TM 30 on file. Some of the requirements were not available as my condo owner is a Thai expat in Europe.
A lady from the Juristic Office did whatever was needed to get that done. I paid the fine plus her requested 500 baht fee to drive the 30 kilometer distance, spend whatever time it took her, and bring me back the stamped receipt. I think I gave a tip as well, as it was a valuable service for a disabled senior. ????
Going to Chiang Mai and/or Mai Hong Son soon for maybe a month or two. Have to work that bit out. In MS we have a policeman friend of the family. Hoping he can handle reporting for me there.