Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I suspect Blair is worth every penny. He must have some good anecdotes.

 

He is not an MP

 

Actually I'm not sure if Davis is an MP or a glove puppet operated by Bamford!

 

You see the difference? Subtle, I know....

 

 

Not so much "subtle" more 'double standards'

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You seriously think that I don't realise that politicians (and big business) are playing their games to remain?

I suspect that most want whatever is least damaging

 

The exceptions are the hardline ERG who want Brexit for personal financial gain and to hell with the consequences

 

What have you PERSONALLY got against CU?

 

I believe that most brexiters have been brainwashed to say what they don't want but they can not tell us what they do want in a rational way.

 

So now's your chance DD. Im not patronising you, please tell us why you against the CU?

 

NO CONFERRING ????

[Grouse]

Just now, vogie said:

Not so much "subtle" more 'double standards'

One more time Vogie, I'm not patronising you, but DD is a sitting MP. TB is not.

 

Do you see the difference?

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You mean actually intelligent even if sometimes you don't give that impression?

 

Sorry! I give up and revert to Topic.

 

I thought you might have been interested in some factual information. Sorry you are too busy to read it....

p.m. sent, as (unlike you), I'm not prepared to 'show off' on a forum - thinking this makes my posts more 'worthy'........

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I suspect that most want whatever is least damaging

 

The exceptions are the hardline ERG who want Brexit for personal financial gain and to hell with the consequences

 

What have you PERSONALLY got against CU?

 

I believe that most brexiters have been brainwashed to say what they don't want but they can not tell us what they do want in a rational way.

 

So now's your chance DD. Im not patronising you, please tell us why you against the CU?

 

NO CONFERRING ????

We used to have far more 'rational' conversation pre-brexit about the reasons why the eu is disliked within the uk.

 

I made it clear as to why I registered to vote, but eventually decided not to do so.

 

You've obviously forgotten, but I haven't.

[dick dasterdly]

Remaining within the CU is far from leaving the eu - as others have pointed out.  Bit odd that remainer posters have forgotten this....

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

p.m. sent, as (unlike you), I'm not prepared to 'show off' on a forum - thinking this makes my posts more 'worthy'........

 

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

We used to have far more 'rational' conversation pre-brexit about the reasons why the eu is disliked within the uk.

 

I made it clear as to why I registered to vote, but eventually decided not to do so.

 

You've obviously forgotten, but I haven't.

Not at all

 

So tell us, what have you PERSONALLY got against CU?

 

You see that fixes the Ireland problem and fixes the problems our major exporting manufacturers have.

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Norway + is not leaving, and that is why you agree with it.

 

 

 

agree with dodgy d,

I am not familiar with the fish and chips aspects but otherwise

dodgy is in my view spot on here

 

I have opined it umpteen times in these threads, that if UK should end up with N+,

UK politicians would absolutely hate it when they after some time discover

and understand what they have done

 

 

 

 

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, Grouse said:

One more time Vogie, I'm not patronising you, but DD is a sitting MP. TB is not.

 

Do you see the difference?

So tell me is it illegal for David Davis to do this, if not, what is your point?

[Basil B]

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The electorate (mostly) vote for whichever party they think (......) represents them.

 

This referendum has shown that many MPs are entirely out of touch with their electorate.

Political allegiance is much like religion, they are Catholic, C of E, Methodist, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, etc, because that how they were brought up.

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Remaining within the CU is far from leaving the eu - as others have pointed out.  Bit odd that remainer posters have forgotten this....

No. Not good enough

 

No good just parroting others

 

What do you think is so bad about CU that you think it worthwhile destabilising Ireland and putting most of our big exporting manufacturers at risk?

 

I can tell you precisely why a CU is a very good thing for us. You?

[Basil B]

28 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Actually I'm not sure if Davis is an MP or a glove puppet operated by Bamford!

May be a hydraulically operated puppet??? 

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

agree with dodgy d,

I am not familiar with the fish and chips aspects but otherwise

dodgy is in my view spot on here

 

I have opined it umpteen times in these threads, that if UK should end up with N+,

UK politicians would absolutely hate it when they after some time discover

and understand what they have done

 

 

 

 

I will give you some leeway because English is not your first language

 

I have been discussing CU specifically on here

 

I understand that the SM is unpalatable to some

 

But N+ seems like a compromise to me even though I would prefer remain

 

CU is the thing that resolves many of the key problems we face

 

I would like Brexiters to tell us specifically and logically what they themselves dislike about a CU?

[melvinmelvin]

39 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How is it an impossible dream? Norway have that deal and they are not in the EU!

that is quite correct Grouse,

 

but Norway's relationship to EU is fairly similar to what is referred to as BRINO here on TVF.

 

[Grouse]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

that is quite correct Grouse,

 

but Norway's relationship to EU is fairly similar to what is referred to as BRINO here on TVF.

 

So what?

 

The ballot paper said to leave the EU

 

Is Norway a member of the EU?

 

We need compromise not continuous pedantry

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

 

Not at all

 

So tell us, what have you PERSONALLY got against CU?

 

You see that fixes the Ireland problem and fixes the problems our major exporting manufacturers have.

Personally?

 

I care about the way salaries/wages are being lowered by the multitude of eastern european workers.

 

I also care about the way the eu is more than happy to waste other peoples' money on their excessive salaries, expenses etc. etc. - and there is no way to stop this from within.

 

I could go on and on about the things I dislike about the eu - whilst at the same time pointing out my concerns about leaving the eu.

 

As I pointed out pre-brexit.

 

The vitriol expressed by remainers against against leavers/the way 'negotiations' ???? have been handled etc. have turned me into a 'just leave' brexiteer'.

 

I used to be 'on the fence' - but the above have turned me into a 'just leave' brexiteer.

[Grouse]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

So tell me is it illegal for David Davis to do this, if not, what is your point?

 

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

So tell me is it illegal for David Davis to do this, if not, what is your point?

It is, at the very least, unethical and may well be illegal. I'll ask that nice Mr Bercow.

 

Do you see why?

 

This is not the USA

 

"Based on our evidence, the Committee has concluded that MPs should not undertake outside employment as a Parliamentary strategist, adviser or consultant, as this can lead to MPs having
a privileged relationship with one organisation,
and therefore bring undue influence to bear on Parliament."

 

 

Only seems to be a problem with CON MPs. How surprising.

 

As this was only recently published, no doubt the law will be updated.

 

It seems to be a problem that some MPs do not understand what UNETHICAL actually means.. 

 

 

[nauseus]

38 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How is it an impossible dream? Norway have that deal and they are not in the EU!

No they don't. Labour want some version of the SM and the CU. Norway is not part of the CU. The CU is the main issue with NI. If Norway +/- might solve the Irish backstop bullshine, then I might agree.  

[bomber]

7 hours ago, nauseus said:

Just to demonstrate how unified the Union has become these days.

if you call one minor remark from one MP the start of the end of the union then you need help,watching the commons even before the brexit farce was like watching spitting image but worse,no other nation will be leaving the EU in your lifetime.

[dick dasterdly]

29 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

It is, at the very least, unethical and may well be illegal. I'll ask that nice Mr Bercow.

 

Do you see why?

 

This is not the USA

 

"Based on our evidence, the Committee has concluded that MPs should not undertake outside employment as a Parliamentary strategist, adviser or consultant, as this can lead to MPs having
a privileged relationship with one organisation,
and therefore bring undue influence to bear on Parliament."

 

 

And the same should apply after they have left their MP (edit - and civil servant) jobs.

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No they don't. Labour want some version of the SM and the CU. Norway is not part of the CU. The CU is the main issue with NI. If Norway +/- might solve the Irish backstop bullshine, then I might agree.  

I'm glad you are paying attention

 

I am asking specifically about CU. ONLY CU

 

What is SO BAD about keeping the CU? I would be interested in genuine responses from Brexiters.

 

My compromise, if there is no majority for remain would be N+

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

BBC have stated that David Davis, the super efficient Brexit point man is in fact a consultant for JCB on 3,000 GBP per hour!

 

How does that fit with your sense of troughs and snouts DD? Sounds like a truffle hunter to me.

 

The Irish Times state he was also paid 18,000 Euro for a speech in Dublin for PwC! [I wonder if he brought any notes?]

 

What amazes me is that so many peasants vote for their feudal lords and masters rather than a more cooperative alternative! How moronic is that?

 

 

18,000 Euro. Bargain! Much better value than Lionel Blair. 

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I will give you some leeway because English is not your first language

 

I have been discussing CU specifically on here

 

I understand that the SM is unpalatable to some

 

But N+ seems like a compromise to me even though I would prefer remain

 

CU is the thing that resolves many of the key problems we face

 

I would like Brexiters to tell us specifically and logically what they themselves dislike about a CU?

language is always a challenge, leeway is always needed

 

when you say "I have been discussing CU specifically on here"

I kinda feel that we talk about slightly different issues/scenarios/themes

 

When people say N+, I understand that as EFTA/EEA + CU

 

my view pt is that such a framework would be a disaster for the UK and lead to great unhappiness

and endless frustration

(this is honest and well meant, and not because I don't want to see UK in EFTA)

 

been over the dodgy tape again, think he is quite right

(leaving fish and chips out - can eat it but don't know anything about it)

 

 

 

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And the same should apply after they have left their MP jobs.

Why? Explain your logic!!

 

If they are no longer an MP, they no longer have privilege and they can no longer vote!

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

language is always a challenge, leeway is always needed

 

when you say "I have been discussing CU specifically on here"

I kinda feel that we talk about slightly different issues/scenarios/themes

 

When people say N+, I understand that as EFTA/EEA + CU

 

my view pt is that such a framework would be a disaster for the UK and lead to great unhappiness

and endless frustration

(this is honest and well meant, and not because I don't want to see UK in EFTA)

 

been over the dodgy tape again, think he is quite right

(leaving fish and chips out - can eat it but don't know anything about it)

 

 

 

Remaining in CU would resolve Ireland and large scale manufacturing

 

I have no problem with keeping in CU

 

I am asking Brexiters what they personally object to about CU

 

ONE way of achieving this would be an N+ type deal. That is an option I would consider. It's the Nash equilibrium solution.

 

There are many other options.

 

Being anti N+ does not specifically exclude CU!

 

Why is CU a red line for May?

 

Most of DD's points refer to SM

[dick dasterdly]

34 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Political allegiance is much like religion, they are Catholic, C of E, Methodist, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, etc, because that how they were brought up.

Up until this referendum, I think you're right to a large extent.

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, bomber said:

an italian MP having a swipe at france and germany,hardly going to cause the break up of 26 nations,but its about all leave fans can find at the moment,another one on here today was predicting  economic woe for germany,well if they get it bad the UK will get it harder for sure

PM not MP! Rather more significant I think. Mine was a comment on the ever-fading unity of this so-called "European Union". I did not say 'break up'. You did. 

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'm glad you are paying attention

 

I am asking specifically about CU. ONLY CU

 

What is SO BAD about keeping the CU? I would be interested in genuine responses from Brexiters.

 

My compromise, if there is no majority for remain would be N+

 

Norway is in the SM and not the CU.

 

So please tell us what is your definition of Norway+?

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why? Explain your logic!!

 

If they are no longer an MP, they no longer have privilege and they can no longer vote!

Really?

 

You genuinely need it explaining to you why MPs and civil servants should not be allowed to profit from consultancies/directorships in big business once they have left their post?

[aright]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'm glad you are paying attention

 

I am asking specifically about CU. ONLY CU

 

What is SO BAD about keeping the CU? I would be interested in genuine responses from Brexiters.

 

My compromise, if there is no majority for remain would be N+

 

Customs Unions are all part of closer political integration...……...We don't want that

 

The unification of Germany in the 19^th Century was preceded by the 1834 customs union known as the Zollverein. The Zollverein was explicitly conceived as an instrument of German political unification, which occurred a generation later.