Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[aright]

31 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Hilarious! Appreciate the response but nah! BS.

I am not alone!  ……..Michael Jackson?

Customs Unions – Some Lessons From Turkey and Elsewhere

 

Have you ever thought about why, among the world’s many preferential trade agreements, there are only a handful of customs unions around the world, whereas there are hundreds of bilateral or regional free trade agreements?

 

https://uktradeforum.net/2018/01/15/customs-unions-some-lessons-from-turkey-and-elsewhere/

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

That was a grouse quote, not mine. I have seen how animals are transported to and from the EU.

The forum is obviously 'playing up' again , and I apologise for quoting you incorrectly.

 

But my point remains that factory farming of animals is still the 'norm' in both the uk and eu.....

[bomber]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Tony Blair wanted £250,000 + £80,000 expenses for a speech on save the planet and it wasn't too long ago you were lauding him because he supported remain. A tad selective?

Blair was a yankee crawling idiot,cost the UK 1000s of dead and billions in wars,something a EU army wouldnt of

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The forum is obviously 'playing up' again , and I apologise for quoting you incorrectly.

 

But my point remains that factory farming of animals is still the 'norm' in both the uk and eu.....

Yes I know it's the norm, YouTube is full of live animals being transported between EU countries, no water given to them for days on end, totally inhuman. We don't have to travel as far as Nigeria to find these barbaric practises.

[bomber]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

All wrong except (3).

i will ask you the same question mr spoonie was asked for about the 5th time on here,what EU laws have offended you in your life time

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, bomber said:

Blair was a yankee crawling idiot,cost the UK 1000s of dead and billions in wars,something a EU army wouldnt of

I think you're missing the point of my post, are you in spoonies? The EU don't have an army, not yet anyway.

[bomber]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes I know it's the norm, YouTube is full of live animals being transported between EU countries, no water given to them for days on end, totally inhuman. We don't have to travel as far as Nigeria to find these barbaric practises.

a debate on leaving the EU and the transport of animals in africa has been raised,WHY?

[vogie]

Just now, bomber said:

a debate on leaving the EU and the transport of animals in africa has been raised,WHY?

Don't join a debate half way through and start asking questions, start from where you left off yesterday, it might give you more understanding. Duh

[bomber]

Just now, vogie said:

I think you're missing the point of my post, are you in spoonies? The EU don't have an army, not yet anyway.

True but i think you know what my point was,EU for me any day over uncle Sam and i think most of the UK would agree

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, bomber said:

a debate on leaving the EU and the transport of animals in africa has been raised,WHY?

Because some posters think the eu ensures that all animals (produced for food) within the eu are treated humanely .

[bomber]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

Don't join a debate half way through and start asking questions, start from where you left off yesterday, it might give you more understanding. Duh

yes Boss,whoops sorry "master" is your favourite term

[bomber]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Because some posters think the eu ensures that all animals (produced for food) within the eu are treated humanely .

things like this and fishing have helped brexit has dragged on,MPs in the commons bringing up every little industry into play,its obvious whats needed is a party to form that will put all the interests of leave supporters into one basket,they have 17 million voters to build on so why not do it,Ukip joining up with EDL with farage as leader and bojo deputy,tommy as foreign secretary,i would like to hear tommys view on the transportation of animals.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Because some posters think the eu ensures that all animals (produced for food) within the eu are treated humanely .

No, wrong again

 

JRM says CU is bad

 

So Brexiters say CU is bad BUT they don't know why

 

I would be happy to retain CU

 

Protects the Irish border issue

 

Protects large scale manufacturing

 

Protects farmers (and their livestock) from uncontrolled and far less humane competition from outside the EU.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Yes I know it's the norm, YouTube is full of live animals being transported between EU countries, no water given to them for days on end, totally inhuman. We don't have to travel as far as Nigeria to find these barbaric practises.

If it happens it's against the rules 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/practice/transport_en

 

And it's bad practice 

 

If you don't feed and water an animal on a long journey it will lose weight - most animals are sold by weight, so you are effectively throwing money away 

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, aright said:

Customs Unions are all part of closer political integration...……...We don't want that

 

The unification of Germany in the 19^th Century was preceded by the 1834 customs union known as the Zollverein. The Zollverein was explicitly conceived as an instrument of German political unification, which occurred a generation later.

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zollverein

 

Just to revisit this.

 

Alright, I spoke rather to quickly and harshly. Reading has clarified the issue for me.

 

In fact this Prussian customs union was instrumental in spurring growth but failed to Bring other nations closer to the center.

[melvinmelvin]

 

it is often neglected that Germany is, in fact, a federation

of independent states/nations

 

after ww2, as times passed, the degree of true independence diminished, but still . . .

 

(not few are the Germans that did not appreciate the unification taking place after the wall was brought down,

 contrasts are not few and far between in Germany)

 

a challenging country to lead, strong and insightful people needed (Kohl, Merkel),

we will see in a few years if Ms AKK has what it takes to fill the shoes

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

Vogie, this is for you 

 

 

[Grouse]

32 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

it is often neglected that Germany is, in fact, a federation

of independent states/nations

 

after ww2, as times passed, the degree of true independence diminished, but still . . .

 

(not few are the Germans that did not appreciate the unification taking place after the wall was brought down,

 contrasts are not few and far between in Germany)

 

a challenging country to lead, strong and insightful people needed (Kohl, Merkel),

we will see in a few years if Ms AKK has what it takes to fill the shoes

 

 

 

 

I do hope so!

 

Are you old enough to remember Willi Brant?

[melvinmelvin]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I do hope so!

 

Are you old enough to remember Willi Brant?

yes,

also a chap capable of filling sizeable shoes, indeed

 

(I omitted to mention him in my prev post, reckoning most readers wouldn't be able to relate to him)

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

 

An interesting read here. Instead of the EU insisting on the backstop, they could agree a zero tariff FTA with the UK.  That would virtually eliminate the need for customs checks on the NI border, as long as the RoI doesn't join Schengen. 

 

How to fix the Irish border problem

https://capx.co/how-to-fix-the-irish-border-problem/

[melvinmelvin]

31 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

 

An interesting read here. Instead of the EU insisting on the backstop, they could agree a zero tariff FTA with the UK.  That would virtually eliminate the need for customs checks on the NI border, as long as the RoI doesn't join Schengen. 

 

How to fix the Irish border problem

https://capx.co/how-to-fix-the-irish-border-problem/

 

this NI border really hampers a lot and create way more challenges than it deserves, (my view)

it just ain't that important me thinks

 

Interestingly, Varadkar, this week in Davos,

opined that Ireland is prepared to install a hard border between IRL and NI

should UK opt to exit EU with no deal.

interesting times

 

[melvinmelvin]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

 

this NI border really hampers a lot and create way more challenges than it deserves, (my view)

it just ain't that important me thinks

 

Interestingly, Varadkar, this week in Davos,

opined that Ireland is prepared to install a hard border between IRL and NI

should UK opt to exit EU with no deal.

interesting times

 

 

 

A Davos aside

 

more than ever, politicians industrialists investors opinion-formers find it necessary to

offer worried serious remarks re climate CO2 global warming and what have you,

you ain't being taken seriously this year's DAVOS jippo if you don't.

 

in the week that just passed

not less than 1500 private aeroplanes were parked in Davos and nearby airports.

 

crap-gas footprint is taken seriously indeed

 

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, bomber said:

i will ask you the same question mr spoonie was asked for about the 5th time on here,what EU laws have offended you in your life time

The concept of an alien power imposing primary law in the UK, especially Treaty Law, always has offended me. The Roman type of law followed by continental Europe is alien to the British culture and way of life; the UK staying in the EU would eventually mean the loss of right to habeas corpus. which would be replaced by corpus juris. There are so many things about EU membership that I don't like but IMO the legal aspect is the most important.

 

Also, I particularly don't like:

 

- EU Climate Change and other Environmental Regulations - unrealistic and unachievable - the HSE progress in the UK was fine pre EEC and we should regulate ourselves. Certainly don't need EU help!

- The CFP and the CAP.

- QMV meaning that the UK can be outvoted and forced to accept rules we don't want.

- The EU VAT minimums imposed. 

 

I don't have time for more but there are many.

 

[vogie]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Vogie, this is for you 

 

 

Thanks for that grouse, I am a big fan, I thought he was pretty neutral to be honest.

[melvinmelvin]

another aside, no not really, relevant to Brexit and immigration control

 

Right now, the Italian PM is in the process of filing criminal charges against

the captain of, the ship, and the owners of the ship

a Dutch flagged rescue ship that has picked up refugees in the Med and wants to land them in Sicily

 

Italian PM says firmly nee way that you can enter an Italian port.

(the ships is idling just a tad off shore)

 

wow, to say the least,

what do we see here? failure of EU and immigration guidance

Italy and Greece have had to carry a way too heavy a burden, they are totally pissed off, to put it mildly.

 

(I am afraid that we now just see the beginning of large scale immigration to Europe,

 next 10 years this will become a lot worse.)

 

this immigration shit is an area where Europe as a whole has failed completely

(no, it is not EU's or Merkel's fault)

the importance of this is way above Brexit

 

 

[7by7]

22 hours ago, bomber said:

still better than what they get elsewhere,i know they were treat like royalty 10-20 years ago maybe we have awoken a little to this but the word on the street was the UK is the place to be compared to the rest of the EU

As far as I am aware from nearly 20 years of taking an interest in all UK immigration matters, asylum seekers in the UK have never been "treated like royalty." They have always been given the same sort of financial and accommodation help as they receive now; unless you can prove me wrong with something stronger than hearsay.

 

Because the word on the street you quote is wrong; even though it may also be the word on the street in Kabul Mogadishu etc.. Many asylum seekers, especially the false ones, are bitterly disappointed when they arrive in the UK and find that they wont be given the house and large pot of cash the people smugglers promised them!

[vogie]

5 hours ago, tebee said:

If it happens it's against the rules 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/practice/transport_en

 

And it's bad practice 

 

If you don't feed and water an animal on a long journey it will lose weight - most animals are sold by weight, so you are effectively throwing money away 

Hi tebee, sorry for not replying earlier but have been out for Sunday evening dinner. We all know the theory side of things, but in reality animals are being mistreated very badly. Why transport an animal thousands of miles to kill it, the suffering that the animals must go through is unimaginable, is there any reason that animal cannot be slaughtered before the journey, what is the point of transporting animals alive, what purpose does it serve? I have a video of the suffering these animals go through, but I am very reluctant to post it as it is so barbaric. Check out Youtube, there are many examples of the practices that is going on in the EU. A law that permits live animals to be transported needs immediately changing.

 

[melvinmelvin]

32 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The concept of an alien power imposing primary law in the UK, especially Treaty Law, always has offended me. The Roman type of law followed by continental Europe is alien to the British culture and way of life; the UK staying in the EU would eventually mean the loss of right to habeas corpus. which would be replaced by corpus juris. There are so many things about EU membership that I don't like but IMO the legal aspect is the most important.

 

Also, I particularly don't like:

 

- EU Climate Change and other Environmental Regulations - unrealistic and unachievable - the HSE progress in the UK was fine pre EEC and we should regulate ourselves. Certainly don't need EU help!

- The CFP and the CAP.

- QMV meaning that the UK can be outvoted and forced to accept rules we don't want.

- The EU VAT minimums imposed. 

 

I don't have time for more but there are many.

 

some comments

 

habeas corpus is quite common in Europe, me thinks

 

you talk about EU imposing primary/treaty law in the UK

 

I see this somewhat differently.

 

EU can NOT impose treaty stuff on the UK - this I don't understand

EU can not force the UK to ratify a treaty.

 

EU imposes legal stipulations,

it is, so far, up to the UK how these are implemented, primary law or secondary law,

or administrative practice if well documented and guided by law.

 

 

 

 

[sanemax]

Just now, 7by7 said:

As far as I am aware from nearly 20 years of taking an interest in all UK immigration matters, asylum seekers in the UK have never been "treated like royalty." They have always been given the same sort of financial and accommodation help as they receive now; unless you can prove me wrong with something stronger than hearsay.

 

Because the word on the street you quote is wrong; even though it may also be the word on the street in Kabul Mogadishu etc.. Many asylum seekers, especially the false ones, are bitterly disappointed when they arrive in the UK and find that they wont be given the house and large pot of cash the people smugglers promised them!

One of the gripes of British people was that Asylum seekers arrive in the UK , usually with a family and they get priority council housing , well , they get pushed to the top of the list because their needs are greater , they have children  

[7by7]

22 hours ago, nontabury said:

Therefore you are now admitting that you were incorrect, in your original post, regarding the E.u and especially Airbus, dealing with none E.u countries, that do not have a trading agreement with the E.u.

 So again thank you for proving me correct, and at the same time proving that you are as quite often, completely wrong.

 Although I must give you credit, for the way you dribble around the truth,

did you play for QPR?

 What are you burbling on about?

 

You asked me to confirm that the USA and China had agreements with the EU. Although your snide comment about me then informing the US and Chinese governments obviously showed that you believed such agreements don't exist!

 

Unfortunately fore you, I did show you that the EU has agreements with both countries, the one with China dating back over 30 years!

 

I know you Brexiteers like to spin everything in an effort to prove you are always right, but how can me showing you that both countries have agreements with the EU prove that they don't have agreements with the EU?