Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[vogie]

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

6 minutes ago, aright said:

Customs Unions are all part of closer political integration...……...We don't want that

Thank you for sharing with us what you don’t want. Why should anyone give a damn about it though? 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Labour hasn't a clue what it wants, some want this, some want that, when Alistair Campbell (from Keighley incidentally) was asked if the Labour Party are split, he replied, "no, they are divided".

 

 

But more of a problem is that the Tory party is just the same and they are the party in power.

[aright]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Thank you for sharing with us what you don’t want. Why should anyone give a damn about it though? 

It was a reply to Grouse's question what's so bad about the CU

You need to be less aggressive and keep up.

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Norway is in the SM and not the CU.

 

So please tell us what is your definition of Norway+?

 

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Norway is in the SM and not the CU.

 

So please tell us what is your definition of Norway+?

 

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Norway is in the SM and not the CU.

 

So please tell us what is your definition of Norway+?

No argument with that. You are conflating 2 different matters

 

N+ is EEA/EFTA with CU bolted on. I would compromise, reluctantly, on that.

 

However I am interested in what Brexiters dislike so much about CU because this alone fixes the Ireland problem and large scale manufacturing issues (roughly; lets not get in to minutae.)

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, tebee said:

But more of a problem is that the Tory party is just the same and they are the party in power.

It's just politicians being politicians - and looking after their own interests.

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, aright said:

It was a reply to Grouse's question what's so bad about the CU

You need to be less aggressive and keep up.

I wasn’t aggressive. You need to get a thicker skin. 

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Thank you for sharing with us what you don’t want. Why should anyone give a damn about it though? 

I think he means "we" being the collective majority, as counted in the 2016 referendum. "Anyone", which I assume means you, and the remainers, certainly give a damn about that, don't you? 

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Really?

 

You genuinely need it explaining to you why MPs and civil servants should not be allowed to profit from consultancies/directorships in big business once they have left their post?

Generally, I have no problem with that. It is a much smaller issue that active MPs taking consultancies

 

I would not object to say a 12 month gap for example. In some ways this is similar to none compete clauses in employment contracts. They are illegal. You can not stop people using what they know.

[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, aright said:

Customs Unions are all part of closer political integration...……...We don't want that

 

The unification of Germany in the 19^th Century was preceded by the 1834 customs union known as the Zollverein. The Zollverein was explicitly conceived as an instrument of German political unification, which occurred a generation later.

 

 

Hilarious! Appreciate the response but nah! BS.

[aright]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Hilarious! Appreciate the response but nah! BS.

I must say, not the most constructive argument, more like I hadn't thought of that.

[melvinmelvin]

grouse san, with due respect,

 

I have been struggling to understand your messages this morning/lunch

(yes yes - I know that English is not my 1st language, but I understand some English - me thinks)

 

you throw

CU

SM

N and N+

into the debate - but without any hint of context

 

your preference is to remain, read you loud and clear, well understood

 

then you shout N+,

what exactly is the legal context of that? EFTA/EEA + CU or smth else?

please clarify

 

you opine strongly, CU at least, what is wrong with that?

my response; context Grouse? CU in what legal context?

there is no CU in a vacuum, context is omni important.

 

arrangements must be set against a legal background, they don't fly in thin air like farts

 

[dick dasterdly]

54 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

It is, at the very least, unethical and may well be illegal. I'll ask that nice Mr Bercow.

 

Do you see why?

 

This is not the USA

 

"Based on our evidence, the Committee has concluded that MPs should not undertake outside employment as a Parliamentary strategist, adviser or consultant, as this can lead to MPs having
a privileged relationship with one organisation,
and therefore bring undue influence to bear on Parliament."

 

 

Only seems to be a problem with CON MPs. How surprising.

 

As this was only recently published, no doubt the law will be updated.

 

It seems to be a problem that some MPs do not understand what UNETHICAL actually means.. 

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And the same should apply after they have left their MP (edit - and civil servant) jobs.

 

36 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why? Explain your logic!!

 

If they are no longer an MP, they no longer have privilege and they can no longer vote!

 

21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Really?

 

You genuinely need it explaining to you why MPs and civil servants should not be allowed to profit from consultancies/directorships in big business once they have left their post?

 

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Generally, I have no problem with that. It is a much smaller issue that active MPs taking consultancies

 

I would not object to say a 12 month gap for example. In some ways this is similar to none compete clauses in employment contracts. They are illegal. You can not stop people using what they know.

Sorry for quoting so many posts - but it clearly does need to be explained to a few (non-intelligent) people why politicians and civil servants being allowed to take up very lucrative consultancies and directorships after they've left their jobs is a very bad idea indeed.....!

[welovesundaysatspace]

35 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I think he means "we" being the collective majority, as counted in the 2016 referendum.

There was no referendum in 2016 about CU or political integration. There was a referendum about EU membership of the EU. Yet somehow some people, especially Brexiteers, seem to feel entitled to have a say in all those questions concerning the post-leave UK, and to tell the people what they want and not want post-Brexit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

Good response Vogie, thanks

 

I would have preferred your opinion but his Lordship will do

 

Main reason is to get cheaper food and cheaper foods

 

And for that we should put the GFA at risk and damage most of our major manufacturing industries? I don't think so.

 

Plus, I want to PROTECT our footwear manufacturers. I don't want the cobblers brought low by Vietnamese peasant wages

 

I want to PROTECT our farmers (UK AND EU) from having to compete with appalling slave labour and cruel animal husbandry standards in Africa. I want them to keep our green and pleasant land green and pleasant.

 

Rees Mogg of course doesn't give a damn. Probably favours child labour to boot!

 

Nothing wrong with CU and it saves much grief.

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

 

No argument with that. You are conflating 2 different matters

 

N+ is EEA/EFTA with CU bolted on. I would compromise, reluctantly, on that.

 

However I am interested in what Brexiters dislike so much about CU because this alone fixes the Ireland problem and large scale manufacturing issues (roughly; lets not get in to minutae.)

I'm not conflating anything and certainly did not conflate it in triplicate!

 

Your definition is what I thought. So Norway + (CU) = virtual EU = BRINO PLUS.

 

So why go on about Norway when it's the CU you are so keen on?

 

 

 

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

grouse san, with due respect,

 

I have been struggling to understand your messages this morning/lunch

(yes yes - I know that English is not my 1st language, but I understand some English - me thinks)

 

you throw

CU

SM

N and N+

into the debate - but without any hint of context

 

your preference is to remain, read you loud and clear, well understood

 

then you shout N+,

what exactly is the legal context of that? EFTA/EEA + CU or smth else?

please clarify

 

you opine strongly, CU at least, what is wrong with that?

my response; context Grouse? CU in what legal context?

there is no CU in a vacuum, context is omni important.

 

arrangements must be set against a legal background, they don't fly in thin air like farts

 

You are quite correct

 

I am still 100% pro remain

 

N+ is shorthand for a unique solution based on EEA with CU bolted on. I might compromise on that.

 

CU with the EU solves the most pernicious problems that we face. We can go into CU in detail if that would be of interest. But we need a CU such that no border is required in Ireland and no real tariff issues for major manufacturers

 

By all means set the legal contest for us. Not my area...

 

 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Good response Vogie, thanks

 

I would have preferred your opinion but his Lordship will do

 

Main reason is to get cheaper food and cheaper foods

 

And for that we should put the GFA at risk and damage most of our major manufacturing industries? I don't think so.

 

Plus, I want to PROTECT our footwear manufacturers. I don't want the cobblers brought low by Vietnamese peasant wages

 

I want to PROTECT our farmers (UK AND EU) from having to compete with appalling slave labour and cruel animal husbandry standards in Africa. I want them to keep our green and pleasant land green and pleasant.

 

Rees Mogg of course doesn't give a damn. Probably favours child labour to boot!

 

Nothing wrong with CU and it saves much grief.

I know you would have prefered my opinion, but Jacob and myself share the same brain, unfortunately he never lets me have a go, besides how eloquent is that man. 

 

"I want to PROTECT our farmers (UK AND EU) from having to compete with appalling slave labour and cruel animal husbandry standards in Africa. I want them to keep our green and pleasant land green and pleasant."

 

If you had said you wanted to rid the world of all known diseases as well, you might have won me over, as it is, no, but I am filling up as it is.

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

 

 

Sorry for quoting so many posts - but it clearly does need to be explained to a few (non-intelligent) people why politicians and civil servants being allowed to take up very lucrative consultancies and directorships after they've left their jobs is a very bad idea indeed.....!

So, explain

 

I am a consultant as it happens and use expertise gleaned in previous employment all the time.

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I'm not conflating anything and certainly did not conflate it in triplicate!

 

Your definition is what I thought. So Norway + (CU) = virtual EU = BRINO PLUS.

 

So why go on about Norway when it's the CU you are so keen on?

 

 

 

Because CU alone is not enough for me personally

 

The Labour position would just about cover my position. I posted this previously.

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

So, explain

 

I am a consultant as it happens and use expertise gleaned in previous employment all the time.

You may well be a fine consultant, Grouse. But it is evident that few MP's ever learn anything, about anything, except the dubious arts and skills of BS and CYA.

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

I know you would have prefered my opinion, but Jacob and myself share the same brain, unfortunately he never lets me have a go, besides how eloquent is that man. 

 

"I want to PROTECT our farmers (UK AND EU) from having to compete with appalling slave labour and cruel animal husbandry standards in Africa. I want them to keep our green and pleasant land green and pleasant."

 

If you had said you wanted to rid the world of all known diseases as well, you might have won me over, as it is, no, but I am filling up as it is.

So you support the cobblers! Good!

 

I prefer to use tariffs to enable farmers to make a decent living and get the environmental benefits to boot

 

JRM wants the lowest possible food prices so he can pay the lowest possible wages.

 

We can't sort out the entire world but we can build an equitable society in our region.

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

I know you would have prefered my opinion, but Jacob and myself share the same brain, unfortunately he never lets me have a go, besides how eloquent is that man. 

 

"I want to PROTECT our farmers (UK AND EU) from having to compete with appalling slave labour and cruel animal husbandry standards in Africa. I want them to keep our green and pleasant land green and pleasant."

 

If you had said you wanted to rid the world of all known diseases as well, you might have won me over, as it is, no, but I am filling up as it is.

'Factory farming' of animals is still the 'norm' in both the uk and eu......

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You may well be a fine consultant, Grouse. But it is evident that few MP's ever learn anything, about anything, except the dubious arts and skills of BS and CYA.

Indeed and that is why I don't see a problem with MPs taking jobs after they cease to be an MP (or even after a compulsory gap) BUT taking consultancy payments from large manufacturers while still a sitting MP is beyond the pale.

[dick dasterdly]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So, explain

 

I am a consultant as it happens and use expertise gleaned in previous employment all the time.

Were you an MP or civil servant capable of influencing uk or eu policy during your time of employment with them?

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

'Factory farming' of animals is still the 'norm' in both the uk and eu......

That was a grouse quote, not mine. I have seen how animals are transported to and from the EU.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

'Factory farming' of animals is still the 'norm' in both the uk and eu......

I'll post a video of beef production in Nigeria. Do you want that? No food or liquids for 12 hours before.....

 

For dessert we have Indonesian husbandry standards

 

I abhor factory farming and we need to strive for continuous improvement

 

Pate de fox gras should be illegal.

 

Removing tariffs on food imports will not help!

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Because CU alone is not enough for me personally

 

The Labour position would just about cover my position. I posted this previously.

The Labour position promises so much that it cannot truly"accept the referendum result", as claimed in their 2017 GE manifesto, in any meaningful way. 

[bomber]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

The electorate vote for the best people to represent them

 

Most MPs favour remain

 

Does that tell you something?

 

Think about it!

 

Actually they are trying to give you what you were screaming for but stopping you cutting your throats at the same time. Clever eh! Parents! Bless!

dont forget leave voters want to hand back all power away from brussels and the EU  to our superior patriotic MPs that will do whats best for the UK,well as 80% want to remain lets get it on,job sorted 

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

The Labour position promises so much that it cannot truly"accept the referendum result", as claimed in their 2017 GE manifesto, in any meaningful way. 

leave EU. Thats it.