Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[bomber]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Don't presume to tell me what to think or why. Is that you in the photo?

i was thinking he's more your type,a brexit fan

[baboon]

1 minute ago, bomber said:

after the brexit destruction we will  have corbyn to continue the destruction,good luck

And whose fault is that...?

[nauseus]

27 minutes ago, bomber said:

i was thinking he's more your type,a brexit fan

You'll get a headache doing that.

[bomber]

31 minutes ago, baboon said:

And whose fault is that...?

before brexit corbyn was history,so for me brexit is to blame,the tories have also played into his hands

[aright]

German anger builds over dangerous handling of Brexit by EU ideologues

A group of top German economists has told the EU to tear up the Irish backstop and ditch its ideological demands in Brexit talks, calling instead for a flexible Europe of concentric circles that preserves friendly ties with the UK.

Brussels must “abandon its indivisibility dogma” on the EU’s four freedoms and come up with a creative formula or risk a disastrous showdown with London that could all too easily spin out of control...………………..

The report implicitly rebuked the European Commission for mishandling its negotiations with Britain and for trying to use the legal advantage of the Article 50 process to dictate a harsh settlement, with little regard for long-term strategic and diplomatic interests. “Since 2000, the United Kingdom paid a net contribution to the EU budget of €76bn. One may argue that this fact alone merits a fair treatment of the second-largest European economy,” it said.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/01/31/german-anger-builds-dangerous-handling-brexit-euideologues/

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

Any readers of German msm here?

 

Did the above make the headlines/frontpages? Or is it just a view from the side?

 

Would be interesting to hear how it was presented (if at all) in German msm.

 

 

[Loiner]

German anger builds over dangerous handling of Brexit by EU ideologues

A group of top German economists has told the EU to tear up the Irish backstop and ditch its ideological demands in Brexit talks, calling instead for a flexible Europe of concentric circles that preserves friendly ties with the UK.
Brussels must “abandon its indivisibility dogma” on the EU’s four freedoms and come up with a creative formula or risk a disastrous showdown with London that could all too easily spin out of control...………………..
The report implicitly rebuked the European Commission for mishandling its negotiations with Britain and for trying to use the legal advantage of the Article 50 process to dictate a harsh settlement, with little regard for long-term strategic and diplomatic interests. “Since 2000, the United Kingdom paid a net contribution to the EU budget of €76bn. One may argue that this fact alone merits a fair treatment of the second-largest European economy,” it said.
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/01/31/german-anger-builds-dangerous-handling-brexit-euideologues/
 
 

Dummkopfs. Ve let you run zee club and you pizz off the third biggest contributor. Vere ist your 39 bn now? Ve vill not be paying it.

It’s taken far too long for EU and particularly German business to tell their commission what to do. Probably because they also underestimated the strength of feeling in UK and the intransigence of the commissioners. As we slide to No Deal they can see there will be negative effects on their exports to UK.

Of course trade will go on, regardless of what the elites and europhiles wail about. As that new BMW price increases a few percent the sales-vital fleet buyers will look around and maybe settle on UK produced vehicles.


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[nauseus]

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

Any readers of German msm here?

 

Did the above make the headlines/frontpages? Or is it just a view from the side?

 

Would be interesting to hear how it was presented (if at all) in German msm.

 

 

The German MSM seems to have been mainly put to heel over the last few years by a "PC" regime that is also rarely critical of the EU. Important news items have evidently been suppressed or at least delayed, particularly w.r.t immigrant crimes, so I wouldn't expect any headlines.

 

But the ifo idea is interesting at least:

https://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/presse/Pressemitteilungen/Pressemitteilungen-Archiv/2019/Q1/press_20190131_EconPol-Policy-Brief-12.html

 

But this ECA (customs area) idea may also be unpopular in the UK due to the continued weighting of influence of the ECJ and EU commission in the plan. It's also a bit late in the day. 

[melvinmelvin]

50 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The German MSM seems to have been mainly put to heel over the last few years by a "PC" regime that is also rarely critical of the EU. Important news items have evidently been suppressed or at least delayed, particularly w.r.t immigrant crimes, so I wouldn't expect any headlines.

 

But the ifo idea is interesting at least:

https://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/presse/Pressemitteilungen/Pressemitteilungen-Archiv/2019/Q1/press_20190131_EconPol-Policy-Brief-12.html

 

But this ECA (customs area) idea may also be unpopular in the UK due to the continued weighting of influence of the ECJ and EU commission in the plan. It's also a bit late in the day. 

thanks

without thinking deeply; this ECA construct seems a bit farfetched to me

 

(Commission fronting EU member states in WTO hasn't worked too bad.

 One should exercise prudence when repairing stuff that isn't broken.

 

 Are the expected benefits from ECA great?)

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

59 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The German MSM seems to have been mainly put to heel over the last few years by a "PC" regime that is also rarely critical of the EU. Important news items have evidently been suppressed or at least delayed, particularly w.r.t immigrant crimes, so I wouldn't expect any headlines.

Far-right conspiracy theory hogwash. Stop spreading such nonsense. 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The German MSM seems to have been mainly put to heel over the last few years by a "PC" regime that is also rarely critical of the EU. Important news items have evidently been suppressed or at least delayed, particularly w.r.t immigrant crimes, so I wouldn't expect any headlines.

 

But the ifo idea is interesting at least:

https://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/presse/Pressemitteilungen/Pressemitteilungen-Archiv/2019/Q1/press_20190131_EconPol-Policy-Brief-12.html

 

But this ECA (customs area) idea may also be unpopular in the UK due to the continued weighting of influence of the ECJ and EU commission in the plan. It's also a bit late in the day. 

"The German MSM seems to have been mainly put to heel over the last few years by a "PC" regime that is also rarely critical of the EU. Important news items have evidently been suppressed or at least delayed, particularly w.r.t immigrant crimes, so I wouldn't expect any headlines."

 

Unfortunately this appears to be the case - but not only in Germany.....

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

"The German MSM seems to have been mainly put to heel over the last few years by a "PC" regime that is also rarely critical of the EU. Important news items have evidently been suppressed or at least delayed, particularly w.r.t immigrant crimes, so I wouldn't expect any headlines."

 

Unfortunately this appears to be the case - but not only in Germany.....

Far-right conspiracy theory hogwash. Stop spreading such nonsense. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

9 hours ago, aright said:

German anger builds over dangerous handling of Brexit by EU ideologues

A group of top German economists has told the EU to tear up the Irish backstop and ditch its ideological demands in Brexit talks, calling instead for a flexible Europe of concentric circles that preserves friendly ties with the UK.

Brussels must “abandon its indivisibility dogma” on the EU’s four freedoms and come up with a creative formula or risk a disastrous showdown with London that could all too easily spin out of control...………………..

The report implicitly rebuked the European Commission for mishandling its negotiations with Britain and for trying to use the legal advantage of the Article 50 process to dictate a harsh settlement, with little regard for long-term strategic and diplomatic interests. “Since 2000, the United Kingdom paid a net contribution to the EU budget of €76bn. One may argue that this fact alone merits a fair treatment of the second-largest European economy,” it said.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/01/31/german-anger-builds-dangerous-handling-brexit-euideologues/

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Loiner said:

Dummkopfs. Ve let you run zee club and you pizz off the third biggest contributor. Vere ist your 39 bn now? Ve vill not be paying it.

It’s taken far too long for EU and particularly German business to tell their commission what to do. Probably because they also underestimated the strength of feeling in UK and the intransigence of the commissioners. As we slide to No Deal they can see there will be negative effects on their exports to UK.

Of course trade will go on, regardless of what the elites and europhiles wail about. As that new BMW price increases a few percent the sales-vital fleet buyers will look around and maybe settle on UK produced vehicles.


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Did you and other Brexiteers actually bother to read what those economists say in detail? Or was just one clickbaiting headline from the Telegraph enough to make jump and clap your hands in excitement? 

 

To save you some time reading long texts that contain more information than your typical yellow press headline, they seem to propose a sensible Brexit-model that would require compromises, something we know doesn’t work with Brexiteers because “Brexit means Brexit” and “BRINO” and all..

 

Here are some details if you’re interested:

 

”(1) The Backstop provision in the Withdrawal Agreement is dropped.
(2) The United Kingdom permanently delegates all trade policy matters in goods to a newly created European Customs Association (ECA) in which the EU (and, why not, Turkey) is also a member. Neither the EU nor the UK pursue independent trade policies, and the ECA represents them the World Trade Organization (WTO) in the same way as the EU has done until now for all 28 EU
members.
(3) The UK has voting rights in the ECA, as do all other member states. Together with the other members of the ECA it mandates the EU Commission to negotiate trade agreements with third parties.
(4) Decisions are taken with double majority as defined in the Lisbon Treaty, and the European Court of Justice (in extended form including all participating countries) continues to supervise all law- and policy making in the field of trade.
(5) TheECAcoversall“classical”areasoftradepolicy,suchastariffs,quotas,rules of origin, trade defense, et cetera. On these issues, the EU has exclusive competence.
(6) Areas in which the EU has no exclusive competence and in which countries have veto rights (trade in services, intellectual property, direct foreign investment, audiovisual and cultural services, and social, educational and health services), should not fall under the ECA. During a transition period, the pertinent provisions in the EU treaties continue to apply. For the future, arrangements in these areas are made by means of one or several supplementary bilateral agreements.
(7) In existing trade agreements with third parties, provisions pertaining to “classical” areas or areas covered by bilateral agreements continue to apply to the UK, as well as those currently or in future negotiated.”

 

 

[Loiner]

Far-right conspiracy theory hogwash. Stop spreading such nonsense. 

Sorry, he must have forgotten that only left wing sky-will-fall-in lies are allowed by some of you.

Looks like a reasonable assessment of German MSM to me.


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[Loiner]

Don’t bother. After Trump and Brexit, do you really think anyone is going to believe your lies and conspiracy theories anymore?

“Lies, lies, they’re all lies I tell you.”
Conspiracy theory or not, there appears to be more people that agree with me - the majority Leave voters and majority Trump voters. Probably all those damned populists in Europe too but I’m not aware of how many of those.
Shall I tell you again what I think will happen to those under the Lisbon Treaty?


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[aright]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

 

Did you and other Brexiteers actually bother to read what those economists say in detail? Or was just one clickbaiting headline from the Telegraph enough to make jump and clap your hands in excitement? 

 

To save you some time reading long texts that contain more information than your typical yellow press headline, they seem to propose a sensible Brexit-model that would require compromises, something we know doesn’t work with Brexiteers because “Brexit means Brexit” and “BRINO” and all..

 

Here are some details if you’re interested:

 

”(1) The Backstop provision in the Withdrawal Agreement is dropped.
(2) The United Kingdom permanently delegates all trade policy matters in goods to a newly created European Customs Association (ECA) in which the EU (and, why not, Turkey) is also a member. Neither the EU nor the UK pursue independent trade policies, and the ECA represents them the World Trade Organization (WTO) in the same way as the EU has done until now for all 28 EU
members.
(3) The UK has voting rights in the ECA, as do all other member states. Together with the other members of the ECA it mandates the EU Commission to negotiate trade agreements with third parties.
(4) Decisions are taken with double majority as defined in the Lisbon Treaty, and the European Court of Justice (in extended form including all participating countries) continues to supervise all law- and policy making in the field of trade.
(5) TheECAcoversall“classical”areasoftradepolicy,suchastariffs,quotas,rules of origin, trade defense, et cetera. On these issues, the EU has exclusive competence.
(6) Areas in which the EU has no exclusive competence and in which countries have veto rights (trade in services, intellectual property, direct foreign investment, audiovisual and cultural services, and social, educational and health services), should not fall under the ECA. During a transition period, the pertinent provisions in the EU treaties continue to apply. For the future, arrangements in these areas are made by means of one or several supplementary bilateral agreements.
(7) In existing trade agreements with third parties, provisions pertaining to “classical” areas or areas covered by bilateral agreements continue to apply to the UK, as well as those currently or in future negotiated.”

 

 

So ????? Leavers have always been in favour of a sensible Brexit .

Why don't you address the criticisms of the EU and the Commission rather than staying in your dogmatic comfort zone?

You consistently slag off the UK and its leave ambitions but when the shoe is on the other foot and an informed report criticises the EU you go schtum ??????

[Loiner]

Did you and other Brexiteers actually bother to read what those economists say in detail? Or was just one clickbaiting headline from the Telegraph enough to make jump and clap your hands in excitement? 
 
To save you some time reading long texts that contain more information than your typical yellow press headline, they seem to propose a sensible Brexit-model that would require compromises, something we know doesn’t work with Brexiteers because “Brexit means Brexit” and “BRINO” and all..
 
Here are some details if you’re interested:
 
”(1) The Backstop provision in the Withdrawal Agreement is dropped.
(2) The United Kingdom permanently delegates all trade policy matters in goods to a newly created European Customs Association (ECA) in which the EU (and, why not, Turkey) is also a member. Neither the EU nor the UK pursue independent trade policies, and the ECA represents them the World Trade Organization (WTO) in the same way as the EU has done until now for all 28 EU
members.
(3) The UK has voting rights in the ECA, as do all other member states. Together with the other members of the ECA it mandates the EU Commission to negotiate trade agreements with third parties.
(4) Decisions are taken with double majority as defined in the Lisbon Treaty, and the European Court of Justice (in extended form including all participating countries) continues to supervise all law- and policy making in the field of trade.
(5) TheECAcoversall“classical”areasoftradepolicy,suchastariffs,quotas,rules of origin, trade defense, et cetera. On these issues, the EU has exclusive competence.
(6) Areas in which the EU has no exclusive competence and in which countries have veto rights (trade in services, intellectual property, direct foreign investment, audiovisual and cultural services, and social, educational and health services), should not fall under the ECA. During a transition period, the pertinent provisions in the EU treaties continue to apply. For the future, arrangements in these areas are made by means of one or several supplementary bilateral agreements.
(7) In existing trade agreements with third parties, provisions pertaining to “classical” areas or areas covered by bilateral agreements continue to apply to the UK, as well as those currently or in future negotiated.”
 
 

Hope you didn’t type all that, because no I didn’t bother reading it.
The fracturing German position when it comes to business, economists and idealist politicians. “The cracks ma’am, just the cracks.”


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[Scott]

Troll, bickering posts and replies removed.

[tebee]

This is how others see us now - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/the-collective-madness-behind-britains-latest-brexit-plan/2019/01/31/48d4d67e-2578-11e9-81fd-b7b05d5bed90_story.html?utm_term=.c737616e2d0f

 

 

Britain is one of the richest and most advanced democracies in the world. It is currently locked in a room, babbling away to itself hysterically while threatening to blow its own kneecaps off. This is what nationalist populism does to a country. 

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

This is how others see us now - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/the-collective-madness-behind-britains-latest-brexit-plan/2019/01/31/48d4d67e-2578-11e9-81fd-b7b05d5bed90_story.html?utm_term=.c737616e2d0f

 

 

Britain is one of the richest and most advanced democracies in the world. It is currently locked in a room, babbling away to itself hysterically while threatening to blow its own kneecaps off. This is what nationalist populism does to a country. 

Thought it might have been genuine opinion from the Americans. But no....Dunt again!

[Spidey]

4 hours ago, aright said:

So ????? Leavers have always been in favour of a sensible Brexit .

Why don't you address the criticisms of the EU and the Commission rather than staying in your dogmatic comfort zone?

You consistently slag off the UK and its leave ambitions but when the shoe is on the other foot and an informed report criticises the EU you go schtum ??????

Just posted this in another thread but think that it's worth reposting here.

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

42 minutes ago, tebee said:

This is how others see us now - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/the-collective-madness-behind-britains-latest-brexit-plan/2019/01/31/48d4d67e-2578-11e9-81fd-b7b05d5bed90_story.html?utm_term=.c737616e2d0f

 

 

Britain is one of the richest and most advanced democracies in the world. It is currently locked in a room, babbling away to itself hysterically while threatening to blow its own kneecaps off. This is what nationalist populism does to a country. 

 

right

deep sheit tebee, UK has some very very severe challenges ahead

 

 

[7by7]

On 1/29/2019 at 1:25 AM, rixalex said:

Can you please stop lying. I have answered this question on multiple occasions, as have others.

 

The quote below being just one example, and it was in direct response to your question and quoted you, so for you to claim that no Brexiteer has answered you on this point, is complete fabrication. Or to put it another way, a lie.

 

 

You have never answered the question, ever. Neither has any other Brexiteer.

 

Even your 'quote below' was just a long winded attempt by you to dodge the question.

 

 

 

[7by7]

On 1/29/2019 at 1:54 AM, Loiner said:

Sorry me old love. You are not the ringmaster in this circus and I don’t jump through your hoops.

Hope you didn’t waste too long typing all that.


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At least rixalex made an attempt, albeit a feeble attempt, to answer the question put to him.

 

You can't even manage that; no surprise there.

 

After all, the 'facts' you posted are not 'facts' at all!

 

That the 'source' you gave for those 'facts' makes absolutely no mention of them at all plus your comment above establishes that on the balance of probabilities you made them up yourself.

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

At least rixalex made an attempt, albeit a feeble attempt, to answer the question put to him.

 

You can't even manage that; no surprise there.

 

After all, the 'facts' you posted are not 'facts' at all!

 

That the 'source' you gave for those 'facts' makes absolutely no mention of them at all plus your comment above establishes that on the balance of probabilities you made them up yourself.

Welcome back 49. Where have you been hiding?

[7by7]

12 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Welcome back 49. Where have you been hiding?

Was off work sick, not any longer.

 

Family, social life and work all come before posting here.

[rixalex]

10 hours ago, 7by7 said:

You have never answered the question, ever. Neither has any other Brexiteer.

 

Even your 'quote below' was just a long winded attempt by you to dodge the question.

 

 

 

I have answered the question, it's just that your mind is totally closed to any answer that deviates from your deeply entrenched belief that the only possible reason someone could have to objecting to a second referendum must be that they fear it, as evidenced by the fact that the only way you can phrase the question, is "why do you fear a second referendum?", in spite of me and others telling you that we don't fear it, rather we don't believe it should happen -  firstly because a second referendum ensures a bad deal from the EU, as they know that the worse they make the deal, the greater the chance there is of the UK voting to remain, secondly, because if you promise to enact the result of the first vote, but then don't follow through on the promise, it's pointless having any more votes because the precedent is set that they can be ignored. Those are the two main reasons. There are others.

 

Please stop lying by saying that your question hasn't been answered. It has. By all means say that you don't agree with the answer, but don't lie and say that it hasn't been answered. Doing so is trolling.

[Loiner]

Welcome back 49. Where have you been hiding?

A special place in Remainer hell. The circle next to Brexit.


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[7by7]

7 hours ago, rixalex said:

<snip>

Please stop lying by saying that your question hasn't been answered. It has. By all means say that you don't agree with the answer, but don't lie and say that it hasn't been answered. Doing so is trolling.

Ah, I see you have resorted to the trolling accusation; the last resort of those with arguments built on sand.

 

Saying that you don't fear a second referendum, only that you don't want one is not answering the question; no matter how much you try to spin it otherwise.

 

But I will stop asking it, not just because you keep dodging it, but also because the answer is obvious.

[rixalex]

Ah, I see you have resorted to the trolling accusation; the last resort of those with arguments built on sand.
 
Saying that you don't fear a second referendum, only that you don't want one is not answering the question; no matter how much you try to spin it otherwise.
 
But I will stop asking it, not just because you keep dodging it, but also because the answer is obvious.

I've "resorted to the trolling accusation" because the definition of trolling is posting inflammatory and off topic remarks with the intention of provoking anger that derails discussion. Claiming that a question you asked hasn't been answered, when it demonstrably has, multiple times, purely because you don't like or agree with the answer, IS trolling, and is the last resort of a person who can't, for whatever reason, engage in the debate.

Let me give you some help overcoming this trolling tendency of yours.

So, one of my reasons, as you know from my repeated mentions of it, for not wanting another referendum, is that if the 2016 referendum isn't enacted first, as was promised, the precedent is set that referendum results need not be implemented. The moment any future referendum result is announced, the losing side can simply block and obstruct the decision being enacted and call for another vote. A stupid thing to do of course, not accepting the result, but validated and justified by the fact that it has happened already thanks to the wishes of people like you, unable to accept the 2016 vote.

Now, rather than lying and saying your question hasn't been answered, have a go at completing this line of argument, if you can...

"Thank you rixalex (and others) for answering my question. The reason why I disagree with you on the point you made that all future referendums will be undermined and therefore pointless, if we don't enact the 2016 vote first, before having another referendum, is I think that......"

Alternatively just lie again and claim your question hasn't been answered. Up to you.

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