12 hours ago, Sheryl said:

No matter what rules are developed, agents can circumvent them - but only if corrupt IOs and/or bank staff cooperate.

 

The solution is not hard to understand, there is just no political will to implement it.

 

1. Outlaw Visa agents and enforce this.

 

2. Dismiss corrupt IOs.

 

 

Perfectly said.

 

Besides a few who might get tossed under the bus for the sake of press, nothing will happen to agents or IOS. As soon as the dust settles it will be business as usual, but perhaps a little more expensive.

 

If your current agent isn’t able to help you now, start talking to other agents. The better ones will have a solution soon if not already.

 

You can always count on corruption here. Sometimes it works against you, but most of the time it works in your favor, so use it. It makes life so much easier.

13 hours ago, sumrit said:

So, if you don’t agree with Immigration's methods, what would you do to stop all the illegal extension applications, both income based and money in the bank options???

The British Embassy charged £52 for an income letter, based on submitted proof. If they'd insisted on it, I would have gone to the embassy by appointment, opened my Internet banking in front of them and showed them a live statement history. It's quite pathetic that they claim they were unable to verify the credibility of their own nationals' income sources. 

6 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I couldn't even get an appointment to see Immigration about a VISA extension the last two times I tried in Chiang Mai. Unless I was prepared to queue all night, or use an agent.

Before that when they had online appointment bookings, they would make me wait 2-3 hours even though I was the first one on that day with an appointment.

Did I mention the VISA agents walking straight in with piles of 10-20 applications, while I was waiting.

 

The few times I did have to go to immigration, I used an agent and they told me to be there at a certain time, so I showed up and they walked me right to a desk (no waiting), we did our thing and I walked out. 3 - 5 mins tops and cut in front of everyone. 

 

No questions from the IO and no hassle. That’s what you’re paying for.

 

But it’s rare I even have to go. They do everything for me. Worth every baht, which actually isn’t much.

1 hour ago, dcnx said:

The few times I did have to go to immigration, I used an agent and they told me to be there at a certain time, so I showed up and they walked me right to a desk (no waiting), we did our thing and I walked out. 3 - 5 mins tops and cut in front of everyone. 

 

No questions from the IO and no hassle. That’s what you’re paying for.

 

But it’s rare I even have to go. They do everything for me. Worth every baht, which actually isn’t much.

Does that make you feel smug or important? It's people like you that cause the problems that we're now facing. Long term expats will now have to leave, breaking up families, because of the likes of yous. Maybe what we need is a corruption hotline where we can report 'Immigration Fraud'? 

8 hours ago, JackThompson said:

#3.  The applicant has all the required finances, etc - but the IOs refusing to processes his honest application want the agent-money.  That was my experience - twice in a row - Non-O stamp, then marriage-extension.

 

And how do you get an IO who is being paid-off not to look at the seasoning, and his boss, and his bosses' boss on up, to actually look at the seasoning? 

Wear a bodycam on your next visit to TI.

15 hours ago, offset said:

There is no paper trials for any body to check the bank account paperwork after a extension is given. The requirement is a copy of the front page and the page the 3 months is shown but there is nothing to show the page for the 3 months is the same book as the front page with the name on (can just issue a book with the name on it and copy any bodies 3 month page) so it is not easy to do a check at a later date

 

The way round this would be a requirement of bank statements with the name and account number on it and signed off by the bank

You make a good point. Only the applicants certifying signature (original)  ties them together. I usually take the actual passbook with me but it doesn't get asked for. 

14 hours ago, stanleycoin said:

1,900 baht  sounds better to me.

and get people to do there jobs,  they are paid to do.

 

Why, they have found more lucrative employment.

10 hours ago, KittenKong said:

12 hours ago, offset said:

Kbank does not show number on any page only need 1 bank not to have it for a loop hole

 

10 hours ago, KittenKong said:

It must at least show the book number, surely.

All passbooks follow an industry wide standard format of having the account number on the front (title) page and then a book serial number which appears on every page, including the front page.

It's just one more Thailand, smoke and mirrors trick.

Falangs did it. No

Agents did it,  No

Immigration officers did it, Yes

 

55 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

Does that make you feel smug or important? It's people like you that cause the problems that we're now facing. Long term expats will now have to leave, breaking up families, because of the likes of yous. Maybe what we need is a corruption hotline where we can report 'Immigration Fraud'? 

Do you feel more important?

And no, it is mostly people who have been complaining that have cause the problems we are now facing.

 

You seem very naïve and actually it is just the opposite.  I know several lower income "families" in the CM area who use agents and/or have been getting the income verifications letters by lying.

Time to wise up and realize the truth.

7 hours ago, johnwf1963 said:

Primary requirement if I was running the show;-

 

1. Immigration officers and offices should have no place in receiving funds in anyway. They should only create the payment requirement online, that in turn should be in turn given at random to a section in a commercial or government bank. The common link would just be a reference number as a primary key in the database. It's then just a banking function, the sections in the banks can easily rotate staff with minimal training. Immigration offices would not know where the payment is being handled, so no networking with bank staff. If networking with bank staff was attempted, easy to deter with random Audits. 

 

2. For Customers, all payments to immigration should be via the bank, in branch, online or easy through ATM prompt pay. Receipt and reference to the customer, just like online shopping. . (Immigration gets almost instant confirmation, on their office terminal, so they can tick the box).

 

Nobody should be going into an immigration office with more cash than they need e.g. for transport a coffee and curry and rice at CW!

 

After all it is 2562, come on let's make progress.

That covers the extension fee, now what about the agent?

14 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Do you feel more important?

And no, it is mostly people who have been complaining that have cause the problems we are now facing.

 

You seem very naïve and actually it is just the opposite.  I know several lower income "families" in the CM area who use agents and/or have been getting the income verifications letters by lying.

Time to wise up and realize the truth.

1. Do you feel more important? About what?

2. it is mostly people who have been complaining that have cause the problems we are now facing. You have that in a link?

3. You seem very naïve and actually it is just the opposite. In English please.

4.  I know several lower income "families" in the CM area who use agents and/or have been getting the income verifications letters by lying. Congratulations.

5. Time to wise up and realize the truth. I did 15 years ago when I came here. And I've been hoping for the last 15 years that Immigration will one day be cleaned up. Hopefully this is the start. Get yer airfares ready they're coming.

4 hours ago, dcnx said:

Perfectly said.

 

Besides a few who might get tossed under the bus for the sake of press, nothing will happen to agents or IOS. As soon as the dust settles it will be business as usual, but perhaps a little more expensive.

 

If your current agent isn’t able to help you now, start talking to other agents. The better ones will have a solution soon if not already.

 

You can always count on corruption here. Sometimes it works against you, but most of the time it works in your favor, so use it. It makes life so much easier.

Counting on corruption, that is precisely the problem.

Not to mention ill conceived policy on the run, and officers who are not sufficiently briefed regarding the changes.

 

5 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

Not to mention ill conceived policy on the run, and officers who are not sufficiently briefed regarding the changes.

 

They do not have to be 'briefed' cuz at the end of the day the rules are open to the IO discretion. And the rule book is open to interpretation.

My retirement to Thailand has been brief, Things are not informed about firstly beyond the 90 day reporting. (a)requirement neither the Embassy here nor anyone else informed me that even with a one year Visa I would have to repeatedly show funds in a Thai bank account at the 90 day reporting period I had already ( I thought) established my financial credentials, when being granted the 12 month visa.

(2) Difficulty in attempting opening a Thai bank account, tried several branches of several banks, all different rulings and requirements, including having to show 12 month lease of condo ( had only taken out a 6 month lease to keep options open) , outrageous fees to access own funds. Lack of internet banking options,( we are in the internet age for gosh sake) 

 

I was prepared to use significant funds into the local economy to lead a reasonable life in LOS, alas this will not

occur.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

They do not have to be 'briefed' cuz at the end of the day the rules are open to the IO discretion. And the rule book is open to interpretation.

By discretion I am assuming you are referring to a process of  which I refuse  to be party to.

 

Does everyone fail to remember what we preach?  This is not, and never will be, our country!!!!  they can change everything, make us "happy" and then change it all back.......or take everything, or do anything.  we have zero voice.  we have lots of rights (hopefully) in the country on our passport.  you want rights, go there.  

 

until they give you a Thai passport, forget it.  yes, times are changing.  you can change too!!!  just look on the map and go where you are welcome.  everyone is welcome here, but not forever if you are not rich.  

 

no house, wife, kids, and money in your home country's bank.....relative freedom.  you want a house and wife in a country that isn't your own.  problems multiply.  we know this......don't we?  so take your wife back home.....except most don't have money to do this.  well, then if you poor....see above.  you are not welcome.  

 

i'm not upset about it at all....if poor people came to my community back home and wanted to change immigration policies to suit them....LOL

I'd make things much simpler. I'd replace the retirement visa by a generic "long stay for leisure" visa. No minimum age, but the foreigner has to post a bond for the duration of their stay that could match the current 800,000 baht. No yearly immigration visits, no silly 90 days reporting. Just report when you actually move to another residence.

 

That should free up valuable police resources that can be used to investigate those who violate the terms of their visa, while all the others should be left alone as much as possible.

 

Unfortunately, it will also require a professional police force. So most current police officers, immigration or otherwise, will need to be gone. Otherwise they'll just keep accepting bribes from those who shouldn't be allowed to stay, while making life difficult for others. No change in the visa rules alone can address this.

My home country is the UK.  I have no voice there either.  The UK government change things on a whim, the civil servants are incompetent idiots.  I am certainly no worse off here in Thailand than I would be in the basket case that is the UK, except perhaps that they couldn't throw me out.  

  
 
i'm not upset about it at all....if poor people came to my community back home and wanted to change immigration policies to suit them....LOL


100% agree!!!



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4 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

By discretion I am assuming you are referring to a process of  which I refuse  to be party to.

 

Discretion whereby an officer is having a bad day so can't be bothered. I took 2 bank account books to the IO showing I had the correct funds to get my extension. The officer dealing with me leant over the table, and in a raised voice, demanded from my wife why I had 2 accounts. He then stood up and accused my wife of messing him around. He then threw the bank books in front of her and stormed out. That kinda discretion.

2 minutes ago, puukao said:

Does everyone fail to remember what we preach?  This is not, and never will be, our country!!!!  they can change everything, make us "happy" and then change it all back.......or take everything, or do anything.  we have zero voice.  we have lots of rights (hopefully) in the country on our passport.  you want rights, go there.  

 

until they give you a Thai passport, forget it.  yes, times are changing.  you can change too!!!  just look on the map and go where you are welcome.  everyone is welcome here, but not forever if you are not rich.  

 

no house, wife, kids, and money in your home country's bank.....relative freedom.  you want a house and wife in a country that isn't your own.  problems multiply.  we know this......don't we?  so take your wife back home.....except most don't have money to do this.  well, then if you poor....see above.  you are not welcome.  

 

i'm not upset about it at all....if poor people came to my community back home and wanted to change immigration policies to suit them....LOL

I arrived with ( and still have) sufficient funds for a good life, independence and ability to contribute financially as well as on a community level, once my language skills improved. Unfortunately the changing goal posts, the lack of  reliable credible information are factors which contribute to a rethink.

Lack of transparency on so many levels. The giving of "half" information about matters of importance.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

Discretion whereby an officer is having a bad day so can't be bothered. I took 2 bank account books to the IO showing I had the correct funds to get my extension. The officer dealing with me leant over the table, and in a raised voice, demanded from my wife why I had 2 accounts. He then stood up and accused my wife of messing him around. He then threw the bank books in front of her and stormed out. That kinda discretion.

Lack of professional standards, and no reporting mechanism which would give you a sense of safety to make a report.

I feel for your experiences.

2 hours ago, dcnx said:

You can always count on corruption here. Sometimes it works against you, but most of the time it works in your favor, so use it. It makes life so much easier.

It only works "for" you if you don't qualify for the service/extension.  For the rest of us, who do qualify, it means the IO is working "against us," unless we pay them off.

 

1 hour ago, Rally123 said:

It's people like you that cause the problems that we're now facing.

No.  Immigration arranged all this.  Agents are now the only permitted form of self-defense for many who legally-qualified, previously. 

 

1 hour ago, Rally123 said:

Long term expats will now have to leave, breaking up families, because of the likes of yous. 

It is immigration breaking up families and, generally, trying to drive out Western expats.  Read this report of a lady in immigration at the airport, and how she feels about foreigners getting involved with a Thai lady:

 

Quote

"if you have Thai GF and you love her, take her to your home country and stay there, you are not wanted here"

That came from an elderly (senior) female officer:

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/978329-denied-entry-tr-at-suvarnabhumi-no-stamp-options/

So, yes, there is a clique (apparently growing in power) who want us to Just Leave with our Thai families.

 

1 hour ago, Rally123 said:

Maybe what we need is a corruption hotline where we can report 'Immigration Fraud'? 

But can we trust anyone at the top to be out of corruption-loop?  These new rules (added to previous changes), with little warning, make their attitude towards us clearer than ever. 

 

They went after us, instead of their own staff, who are the root of the problem.  We cannot be too surprised, though - "accountability" being non-existent across offices and entry-points, so why would "fair play" or "consistency" be present?

 

43 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I know several lower income "families" in the CM area who use agents and/or have been getting the income verifications letters by lying.

Will the wives and children be better off with dad booted and paying overhead somewhere else?  These latest changes are for retirement, but it is absolutely insane they would break up families and take away the only consistent breadwinner - even if only brings-home 3 or so typical Thai salaries vs the 4 to 5 immigration wants to see.

 

42 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

it is mostly people who have been complaining that have cause the problems we are now facing.

No, the problems are 100% of immigration's making.  They run the scams, then they "crack down" on us to increase scam-proceeds - rinse and repeat.  The only changes needed to address any problems were inside immigration facilities.

19 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

My retirement to Thailand has been brief, Things are not informed about firstly beyond the 90 day reporting. (a)requirement neither the Embassy here nor anyone else informed me that even with a one year Visa I would have to repeatedly show funds in a Thai bank account at the 90 day reporting period I had already ( I thought) established my financial credentials, when being granted the 12 month visa.

There is no requirement to show your bank book when doing your 90 day reports. That was stated in a false report put out by a radio station.

22 minutes ago, puukao said:

i'm not upset about it at all....if poor people came to my community back home and wanted to change immigration policies to suit them....LOL

They march in the streets with impunity in my country.  I've seem similar in Europe - literal riots over issues like "our free wifi you give us (in our free housing with free food) is too slow." 

 

We are not poor relative to Thais by any stretch, so the comparison is meaningless.  But even if it were, it is Immigration making the changes to long-standing policies which people were relying on to remain consistent.

I didn't post the quote, I was agreeing with the poster.

They march in the streets with impunity in my country.  I've seem similar in Europe - literal riots over issues like "our free wifi you give us (in our free housing with free food) is too slow." 
 
We are not poor relative to Thais by any stretch, so the comparison is meaningless.  But even if it were, it is Immigration making the changes to long-standing policies which people were relying on to remain consistent.

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2 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Wear a bodycam on your next visit to TI.

and record what? sitting down and having your picture taken?

do you imagine that an agent pulls out a wad of 1000's and gives it to the officer in front of a customer?

you are so naive, 

Bin the agents and set up a system that attempts for bribes can be reported. Things won't change overnight but aim for evolution, not revolution.

 

Set up cameras inside the public areas of Immigration offices that cover the areas where IOs interface with 'customers'. At present 'customers' cameras are banned in the offices- we all know why. 

 

Encourage an influx of newer IOs and get rid of the corrupt deadwood that sit behind desks at present. Female officers in my experience seem to be less, if at all, corrupt as well (and in most cases are far more pleasing on the eye.

 

Edit: shift the blame culture that puts all the badness on the naughty farangs and doesn't address the archaic and corrput practices by Immigration officials (on that I see 10 have been suspended.)

1 minute ago, Psimbo said:

Bin the agents and set up a system that attempts for bribes can be reported. Things won't change overnight but aim for evolution, not revolution.

 

Set up cameras inside the public areas of Immigration offices that cover the areas where IOs interface with 'customers'. At present 'customers' cameras are banned in the offices- we all know why. 

 

Encourage an influx of newer IOs and get rid of the corrupt deadwood that sit behind desks at present. Female officers in my experience seem to be less, if at all, corrupt as well (and in most cases are far more pleasing on the eye.

there are many cameras in Immigration already

how do you know a female officer is less corrupt?

did you try to bar fine her?