What would you do to prevent illegal extension applications???

[sumrit]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

there's another group (to which i belong) who find it quite boring to waste time answering hypothetical questions like yours.

And I see you've also joined the group that reads 14 pages of a thread about a hypothetical question. Hope you secretly enjoyed every single post on here.????

[Airalee]

10 minutes ago, sumrit said:

 

Please note in my post I said it was a comment I'd SEEN recently, I never attempted to suggest it was my idea. Pity you chose not to copy my full quote!!!!

 

Hmmm ????

Well...I hope you enjoy the future health insurance requirements.  They will probably be one of the 3 policy choices that are offered (and required) with the 10 year visa, all of which are so “bare bones” that you’ll need to take out a supplementary policy.  Hoping for something “similar to the Thais (but willing to pay more but not so much as a traditional private health insurance policy) sounds like someone who wants to move to the US and have the Medicare system availed (of course, for a small nominal fee) to them because regular insurance is just too expensive.

 

I wouldn’t doubt that if/when that becomes a reality, there will be some sort of “fixer” who can game the system (for a fee) so that one can remain in Thailand, essentially uninsured.  Will you be leaving at that time?

[sumrit]

6 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

11 hours ago, sumrit said:

Lastly, on a slightly different note, I have seen several comments recently about health insurance. While I agree with the necessity, for most of us ‘over65’s’ private policies are prohibitive and simply out of our reach.

Let's hope they don't introduce rules on this that make it impossible for you to stay. I wonder if you'll still be trumpeting immigration's reform efforts at that time. 

 Don't worry about me, I have private health insurance anyway. The 'us over 65's' comment was simply because, being over 65 myself, I can relate to the problems that some people in that age group tend to have quite often.

 

And yes, I'm not afraid to admit I agree with immigration's reform efforts on preventing people staying in Thailand illegally. And if the changes in the law means it becomes too difficult for me to stay here I'll have to leave. But I won't blame Immigration, I'll blame the illegals and the people who helped them to stay.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, sumrit said:

And yes, I'm not afraid to admit I agree with immigration's reform efforts on preventing people staying in Thailand illegally. And if the changes in the law means it becomes too difficult for me to stay here I'll have to leave. But I won't blame Immigration, I'll blame the illegals and the people who helped them to stay.

Yep. Could be a great new slogan for Thai Immigration:

 

" Illegal obtainers of visa extensions in, pseudo rich, anally retentive, snobs out"

 

It gets my vote of approval.

[lamyai3]

10 minutes ago, sumrit said:

Don't worry about me, I have private health insurance anyway. The 'us over 65's' comment was simply because, being over 65 myself, I can relate to the problems that some people in that age group tend to have quite often.

Clearly you refuse to associate with them though, unless they're also lucky enough to have private health insurance. 

[Airalee]

14 minutes ago, sumrit said:

And yes, I'm not afraid to admit I agree with immigration's reform efforts on preventing people staying in Thailand illegally.

I do not disagree with their efforts either.  It’s their job, and I let them do it.  I don’t however feel a need to get up on my soapbox.

[sumrit]

11 minutes ago, Airalee said:

I wouldn’t doubt that if/when that becomes a reality, there will be some sort of “fixer” who can game the system (for a fee) so that one can remain in Thailand, essentially uninsured.  Will you be leaving at that time?

I don't need a 'fixer', I personally have more than adequate health insurance. This suggestion, which I saw on another thread, was a possible way to help expats on low incomes who haven't got any health care because they can't afford private health insurance. Paying a realistic amount to be able to use the the Thai Government system would at least give them some acceptable treatment if needed. 

[sumrit]

8 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Clearly you refuse to associate with them though, unless they're also lucky enough to have private health insurance. 

But it's because I DO recognise that not all people are lucky enough to have the money to pay for private healthcare (including some good friends of mine) that I picked up on another posters suggestion in another thread that could give adequate treatment for all at an acceptable cost.

Go back and read my post again, please.

[lamyai3]

2 minutes ago, sumrit said:

But it's because I DO recognise that not all people are lucky enough to have the money to pay for private healthcare (including some good friends of mine) that I picked up on another posters suggestion in another thread that could give adequate treatment for all at an acceptable cost.

Go back and read my post again, please.

How very magnanimous of you. If you don't succeed in getting your pipedream healthcare arrangements passed, perhaps you can give your good friends a lift to the airport.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, sumrit said:

And I see you've also joined the group that reads 14 pages of a thread about a hypothetical question. Hope you secretly enjoyed every single post on here.????

i only read your first post who's content was boring. just now i read your "solution" post who's naïveté amused me and i smiled. looking forward to read your solutions for

-changing Thailand's climate to a more moderate one.

-allowing expats to vote.

-teach all Thais (age 6 to 96) to conduct a simple conversation in decent English.

[sumrit]

10 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

How very magnanimous of you. If you don't succeed in getting your pipedream healthcare arrangements passed, perhaps you can give your good friends a lift to the airport.

At least I've offered a suggestion.

 

Tell us please, what would you do to help the expat who is ill and in desperate need of medical care but doesn't have health insurance and doesn't have any money to pay for the care they need???????? 

[Peterw42]

On 2/4/2019 at 5:11 AM, JLCrab said:

Yes and this is also clearly stated in the Immigration Act as linked above re Section 35 which is the Section pertaining to issuing of extensions of stay Page 38:

 

(3) Application for extension of temporary stay in the Kingdom under Section 35, per person, each time 2,000 baht

 

So why are agents asking sometimes 10 times that amount or more for the same thing?

I used an agent a couple of years ago, I still got back (with my extension) a receipt from immigration for 2,000 baht, even though I paid the agent 20k.

So as far as official records/receipts are concerned, immigration only collected 2,000 baht and issued a receipt.

Hypothetically, later that evening the agent possibly passed money to an IO at the local karaoke bar, nothing to do with the official fee of 2,000 baht.

An army of investigators/auditors would find nothing more than an extension (without seasoning) approved by an immigration officer (who legally can) and the standard fee and receipt applied.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Peterw42

[lamyai3]

5 minutes ago, sumrit said:

At least I've offered a suggestion.

 

Tell us please, what would you do to help the expat who is ill and in desperate need of medical care but doesn't have health insurance and doesn't have any money to pay for the care they need???????? 

Go fund me sometimes works in a pinch. For your good friends who aren't yet sick but would be unable to qualify for potential future health insurance requirements, maybe an agent could help. 

[sumrit]

3 minutes ago, Naam said:

i only read your first post who's content was boring. just now i read your "solution" post who's naïveté amused me and i smiled. looking forward to read your solutions for

-changing Thailand's climate to a more moderate one.

-allowing expats to vote.

-teach all Thais (age 6 to 96) to conduct a simple conversation in decent English.

So you read the OP then went straight to my response half way down page 14 without reading another single post.......WOW, that's a brilliant party piece, just do you manage to do that??????

 

As for:

 

-changing Thailand's climate to a more moderate one........... Wait for the start of the next ice age

-allowing expats to vote...........Happens in other countries already, watch this space

-teach all Thais (age 6 to 96) to conduct a simple conversation in decent English..........Employ you as their English teacher

 

As you thought up these hypothetical questions what would your solutions be???????

 

[bbi1]

"The new extension rules, designed to stop people obtaining illegal extensions, has created various threads on Thai Visa in the last few weeks, running to a few thousand posts in total, most of which are negative ones by what appears to be a lot of unhappy expats.

 

Some expats, using false affidavits to declare income and using agents to falsify the money in the bank system, were not only illegal, they became a major problem that Immigration felt they needed to address."

 

Seems like there are a lot of dodgy illegal foreigners living in Thailand who will be kicked out soon as their illegal methods of staying here will be closed. Out with the dodgy foreigners. Thailand doesn't want those ones. Guess we'll start seeing half the number of grey nomads living here very soon.

[sumrit]

5 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Go fund me sometimes works in a pinch. For your good friends who aren't yet sick but would be unable to qualify for potential future health insurance requirements, maybe an agent could help. 

' GO FUND ME or BEG FROM FRIENDS'

 

A typical response from somebody who expects other people to pay for something that is YOUR responsibility. 

And an agent is only there to scam money from you, he certainly won't pay any of your medical bills.????

 

[JLCrab]

19 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

An army of investigators/auditors would find nothing more than an extension (without seasoning) approved by an immigration officer (who legally can) and the standard fee and receipt applied.

An army of investigators would find nothing amiss? Horse manure.

[5633572526]

How about just the maintenance of a minimum monthly balance in a Thai account for the past 12 months for the annual extension. Logically this would be 65,000 or 40,000 depending on whether you have a retirement or marriage visa. You simply print out your last 12 months statements or could get a letter from the bank stating you maintained the minimum balance.

this eliminates the large lump sum you can’t touch in the bank and also deters the use of agents using fraudulent temporary deposits. 

For the initial visa they could still require an initial lump sum which they could also require you show an international transfer from your home country also deterring agents. 

If you value contributions legitimate expats make to your society why not try to help them stay legitimately instead of making it more complicated in an effort to thwart the corruption in your system.

[JackThompson]

5 minutes ago, bbi1 said:

"The new extension rules, designed to stop people obtaining illegal extensions, has created various threads on Thai Visa in the last few weeks, running to a few thousand posts in total, most of which are negative ones by what appears to be a lot of unhappy expats.

 

Some expats, using false affidavits to declare income and using agents to falsify the money in the bank system, were not only illegal, they became a major problem that Immigration felt they needed to address."

 

Seems like there are a lot of dodgy illegal foreigners living in Thailand who will be kicked out soon as their illegal methods of staying here will be closed. Out with the dodgy foreigners. Thailand doesn't want those ones. Guess we'll start seeing half the number of grey nomads living here very soon.

Perhaps someone will explain why making honest in-person applications more difficult with increased seasoning requirements will get rid of the Actual Problem they claim to want to fix, which is agent-applications not being subject to any seasoning-requirements at all.

 

If the problem is as they claim, all they had to do was enforce the existing 3-mo seasoning.

[sumrit]

1 minute ago, JackThompson said:

 

If the problem is as they claim, all they had to do was enforce the existing 3-mo seasoning.

And enforce the 'must apply in person' which is also a requirement

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, 5633572526 said:

If you value contributions legitimate expats make to your society why not try to help them stay legitimately instead of making it more complicated in an effort to thwart the corruption in your system.

In that question, is your answer.  In my view, the clique pushing these changes (and other policy-shifts with regard to foreigners with their own money to spend) do not want to help us stay by "legitimate" means, much preferring tribute-payments, and fewer of us in general.  Contributions which don't line their pockets "don't count," in their calculus.

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, sumrit said:

And enforce the 'must apply in person' which is also a requirement

Reports indicate this is being done - a quick "show up with the agent for a picture" visit, though.  I still see "by mail" agent-offers out there, but even those using an agent would be wise to choose one where a visit to the office is required, as it is a way to know the extension stamp they receive is valid.

[lamyai3]

1 minute ago, sumrit said:

' GO FUND ME or BEG FROM FRIENDS'

 

A typical response from somebody who expects other people to pay for something that is YOUR responsibility. 

And an agent is only there to scam money from you, he certainly won't pay any of your medical bills.????

 

Congratulations, you missed the irony 100%. Unless you're willing to pay your friends' medical expenses out of your own pocket, you might as well recommend go fund me.

 

As to the agent idea, I was just suggesting an alternative you might want to mention to your good friends who failed to meet the financial and insurance requirements. You could float it while driving them to the airport, assuming they don't warm to your earlier explanation that immigration really had their best interests at heart all along. 

[Peterw42]

17 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

An army of investigators would find nothing amiss? Horse manure.

How would they ? The file would show an extension without seasoning, approved by an officer who can over-ride the seasoning and the correct fee paid. I dont think they would be writing "bogus extension via an agent" on the file.

 

I did a legal extension a few years ago and due to my own mistake, I was 1 day short of the 90 day seasoning. The IO explained that the boss will need to approve it, I watched my file go into the bosses office, get stamped then come back. I got an extension without correct seasoning. Extensions via an agent are no different so far as the legality or immigration fee.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Peterw42

[sumrit]

1 minute ago, JackThompson said:

5 minutes ago, sumrit said:

And enforce the 'must apply in person' which is also a requirement

Reports indicate this is being done - a quick "show up with the agent for a picture" visit, though.  I still see "by mail" agent-offers out there, but even those using an agent would be wise to choose one where a visit to the office is required, as it is a way to know the extension stamp they receive is valid.

An agent isn't necessary for any part of the extension application. I and many others do it successfully by ourselves and we can all guarantee our extension stamp is 100% valid.

[sumrit]

11 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

I was just suggesting an alternative you might want to mention to your good friends who failed to meet the financial and insurance requirements.

I never said my friends failed to meet the financial and insurance requirements. They all qualify legally for their respective extensions, and without the use of an agent.

As for insurance, that's not even a requirement at the moment.

Edited February 5, 2019 by sumrit

[JLCrab]

17 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

How would they ?

There is no way for the agent to pull this scenario off without keeping a phony set of books.

Edited February 5, 2019 by JLCrab

[lamyai3]

1 minute ago, sumrit said:

I never said my friends failed to meet the financial and insurance requirements. They all qualify legally for their respective extensions, and without the use of an agent.

As for insurance, that's not a requirement at the moment.

To expand on your earlier question, if your friends did get sick under the previous arrangements, for nine months of the year at least they'd have had 800,000 that they could have liquidated immediately for a medical emergency without in any way invalidating their extension. 

 

The tightening noose of immigration could very easily extend to compulsory health insurance, and this in turn could lead to the rise of agents being willing to facilitate these arrangements for the less than insurable. Would you be so willing to take such a pro immigration stance then? 

[smedly]

On 2/2/2019 at 4:11 PM, Peterw42 said:

The extensions are not always fraud, a high level immigration officer can approve an extension without funds or seasoning, "legally".

Access to the high level officer, via an agent, is corruption etc but its still a legal extension if the officer is empowered.

 

and the bribe he gets makes it illegal, if a person was in a coma then that might be regarded as compassion (without the bribe)

 

There is no solution to this problem unless the big boss views every extension application personally, while local IO's continue to make tons of money through taking bribes to ignore stuff this will never stop.

 

The current proposed rules are a waste of time, they would be no more effective than a simple check by Immigration 3 months after extension approval showing what happened to the 800k someone was supposed to have that was only in their account for a few hours.

 

A possible solution might be for the head of immigration to set up a small team of trusted people that are able to contact Expats who have received a 12 month Extension and review the application and evidence, if they are found to have violated the rules through an agent then the extension is then cancelled and the agent and IO officer involved prosecuted - that would work

[JLCrab]

I will make a general comment here: A high ranking IMM officer may or may not be able to under authority of the Thai IMM Act 2522 waive parts of regulations established by Ministerial or Police Order.

 

However, the Immigration Act itself was enacted in 2522 by HM the King and no officer has the right to override parts of that.

Edited February 5, 2019 by JLCrab