Regulators ground the Boeing 737 Max 8, but not in Thailand

[Date Masamune]

A technical article about the MCAS Boeing flight control agumentation system suspect as faulty.

Pilots are trained to immediately turn the main and backup trim switches OFF and then fly manually without autopilot for the remainder of the flight as a result to certain conditions listed or this MCAS can nose down the 737 MAX 8 into the ground. In Ethiopia the co-pilot had 200 hours total experience reported. I have more than 200 hours experience picking my nose. The plane is probably safe if you have experienced grayhair ex-military pilots and well seasoned sharp copilots but having such a built in hazard may be a big problem for Boeing going forward. 

 

http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm?fbclid=IwAR2WMqx6PI5wwKhSgM99taq_MhjoOBES6GcBjw7qaohKiCRp8XHWYhZ48v4

Edited March 13, 2019 by Date Masamune

[worgeordie]

10 hours ago, stevenl said:

Yes, they grounded after I reacted to his nonsense. So far Thailand has been following, let's see what happens tomorrow with both FAA,  European regulators and Thai reaction. My guess is Thailand will keep following, when they should be more active. Main mistakes were imo made by Boeing and FAA.

"let's see what happens tomorrow " lets hope its not a crash by Thai lion Air,

that would be a disaster. 

regards Worgeordie

[fantom]

In a further development a number of countries have banned all Boeing 737 Max aircraft from operating in their airspace. Countries include UK, Germany, Ireland Australia Singapore.

Aircraft enroute to these countries are being turned back.

Edited March 13, 2019 by fantom

[IAMHERE]

Why haven't more of these planes crashed?  Why did it take so long before the first one crashed ?  I think there is something more to this than just the planes avionics.

[gk10002000]

3 hours ago, DoctorG said:

I have heard that too. Makes sense. If trouble appears get some height to give you time to react and rectify.

Remember that Egypt Air or French air flight I think it was?  As I recall the maintenance crew had taped over the air data ports so the pilot were getting crazy and inconsistent speed data.  The pilot, who thought he was a know it all, actually knew nothing about the airplane's basic flying characteristics.  He kept throttling back the engines.  He had no "feel" for how fast he was really going.  He had no understanding of what speed or throttle setting it took for the engine to maintain altitude.  Even when the stick shaker got activated indicating near stall speed, he still would not throttle up.  Any first year aviation cadet should have some understanding of their aircraft's basic flying characteristics.  They should know that their aircraft can not maintain altitude with the engines set to idle!  That to me was a horrible example of pilot lacking knowledge and understanding of how his aircraft works.

Edited March 13, 2019 by gk10002000
add

[CGW]

2 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

That to me was a horrible pilot lack knowledge and understanding of how his aircraft works.

The worrying thing is how many more of these incompetents are at the "wheel" now? The airline industry has grown immensely in recent years, has pilot training kept up with the growth ????

[Bezdomny]

If Boeing were Russian would be grounded all around globe already.

[billd766]

11 hours ago, wayned said:

 Thai regulators have not grounded the Max 8 since it seems to have the potential of grounding itself so why do the paperwork.

But it is a hell of a way to get the aircraft onto the ground.

[Date Masamune]

Your clueless. Every airline on the planet has a first officer that is hired with zero hours on type. How do you think it could be any different? They are trained in simulators before being placed under captain supervision

200 hours total flight time not on Boeing is what I read.

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post and a reply has been removed. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 hours ago, stevenl said:

I will not fly 737 Max.

 

You're claiming Thailand thinks it knows better than the world, when at the same time US and Europe do the same as Thailand.

You call it 'no Thai bashing', but it clearly is. And sometimes Thai bashing is justified, here it clearly is not.

 

Your post was simply incorrect, nonsense.

 

Since your posts above, last night local time, the EU announced it was temporarily grounding the aircraft. And, the former head of the U.S. NTSB was in the media saying, despite the FAA, that he believed the jets should be grounded in the U.S. as well until the accident investigations sort out what's gone wrong, one way or the other.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

12 hours ago, Youlike said:

Thailand is still not on that list while loads of Asian countries are....

 

But we all know how the Thai think about safety...that's not thai bashing but the truth...

 

I believe the local safety manual here is one page and has big pictures of a roll of duct tape and a can full of black paint.... 

[VocalNeal]

1 hour ago, IAMHERE said:

Why haven't more of these planes crashed?  Why did it take so long before the first one crashed ?  I think there is something more to this than just the planes avionics.

Temperature? Both the crashed one's (so far) have been in between 6 to 8 degrees from equatorial sunshine and temperatures?

[zydeco]

17 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

I got to tell you that as an engineer that tests and has tested avionics software for 20 years, including the 787, X-47B, CH-53, Global Hawk and numerous other programs, I don't' like Boeing's answer to the issue and the directive and instructions the FAA issued earlier for a "fix" or procedural work around.  Angle of Attack (AOA) is not something to monkey around with.  Fly by wire systems have tons of advantages, but I am still old school and want a lot of manual over ride available.  Many aircraft have crashed in recent years due to pilot confusion, misunderstood data and displays, etc.

As someone who has no knowledge in your field whatsoever, I can only comment on appearances.  And it appears that the MAX is a flying Tesla.

[gk10002000]

14 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Would you honestly fly in a Boeing 737 max 8 aircraft until they 

have rectified the problems that the aircraft reportedly has,until

Boeing fixes the problem,I think,as well as more and more carriers

that the planes should be grounded,but Thailand does not,nothing

to do with Thai bashing,just common sense.not too common here

with regards to safety,on roads,air and on the water.not bashing, fact. 

 

regards worgeordie

 

 

 

 

I won't fly on a 787.  I worked at Moog in Salt Lake City Utah and was one of the tester on the Flight Control Actuator Software/System.  Based on what I saw, I quit the job, sent a letter to the FAA and made an online complaint on the FAA website.  I also sent emails to Moog officials. 

[chainarong]

I'm not overly joyed by the events in Ethiopia nor Indonesia , however there are two switches above the captains head that isolate this stall safe computer , now two things come to mind, was the plane in such a state that the captain couldn't reach those switches or as in other cases,  you never turn off switches unless instructed.  

[sqwakvfr]

I have been a pilot for over 30 years and I believe as a precaution the 737 MAX should be grounded.  But on the other hand Southwest Airlines operates 34 MAX 8’s and so far they have not reported any serious operations issues.  The FAA’s current position is “The Data does not justify grounding”.  Of course I would avoid a MAX8 for now and hopefully on my next trip with Silk Air will be on a 737-900..  

[stevenl]

6 hours ago, JAG said:

Umh - if I may quote:

"Thailand’s aviation regulator has scoffed at Chinese regulator’s lead in grounding the Chinese Boeing 737 Max 8."

 

"Another case of Thailand knows better than the rest of the World."

 

To accuse "Worgeordie" of Thai bashing based on that rather perceptive observation, and using pedantry based upon an unfolding scenario, with new nation's and agencies adding bans on the aircraft almost hourly, to justify that accusation is frankly silly, and naive.

 

God forbid there is another crash, Thailand’s aviation regulator (and you) will look...

 

 

So Europe, US and others are not part of 'the rest of the world'.

His remarks were simply incorrect, nonsense.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Since your posts above, last night local time, the EU announced it was temporarily grounding the aircraft. And, the former head of the U.S. NTSB was in the media saying, despite the FAA, that he believed the jets should be grounded in the U.S. as well until the accident investigations sort out what's gone wrong, one way or the other.

 

Yes, and I agree with that.

So does that justify 'thailand knows better' when clearly at that point Thailand was doing the same as US, Europe and others?

 

But I've had enough of this.

Edited March 13, 2019 by stevenl

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Yes, and I agree with that.

So does that justify 'thailand knows better' when clearly at that point Thailand was doing the same as US, Europe and others?

 

It will be interesting to see with the U.S.  There's a lot of domestic political and other pressure building for the FAA to take the same step as the EU, but will they?

 

As I said in a prior post, the FAA when push comes to shove often sides with the industry it's supposed to be regulating, especially in times when the Republican business interests are appointing the FAA administrator and senior leadership, such as at present.

 

Heck, the FAA right now doesn't even have an official administrator, but only an acting one, like much of the rest of the Trump Admin. A guy who's a veteran aviation aerospace industry representative and, as well, a former American Airlines pilot.

 

 

[stevenl]

12 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

It will be interesting to see with the U.S.  There's a lot of domestic political and other pressure building for the FAA to take the same step as the EU, but will they?

 

As I said in a prior post, the FAA when push comes to shove often sides with the industry it's supposed to be regulating, especially in times when the Republican business interests are appointing the FAA administrator and senior leadership, such as at present.

 

Heck, the FAA right now doesn't even have an official administrator, but only an acting one, like much of the rest of the Trump Admin. A guy who's a veteran aviation aerospace industry representative and, as well, a former American Airlines pilot.

 

 

If they don't van today, Wednesday, they won't ban.

[xtrnuno41]

18 hours ago, realfunster said:

UK just joined the club as well. 

Holland joined as well

[jollyhangmon]

15 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Holland joined as well

 

... actually Eurocontrol closed EU-airspace now for this kind of 'beta-testing'.

 

Interesting read ... :

 

https://www.philly.com/business/boeing-max-pilots-complained-suspected-safety-flaw-20190312.html

 

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/the-world-pulls-the-andon-cord-on-the-737-max/

 

 

 

[Humpy]

Other countries that have grounded the 737 Max 8 simply have to ban other 737 MAX 8s from entering their airspace.

[Date Masamune]

I'm not overly joyed by the events in Ethiopia nor Indonesia , however there are two switches above the captains head that isolate this stall safe computer , now two things come to mind, was the plane in such a state that the captain couldn't reach those switches or as in other cases,  you never turn off switches unless instructed.  

This isn’t true. There no switches above the captains head related to this system why would you post something you just made up off the top of YOUR head? Maybe you heard it from another person who does not know what they are talking about?

Link to the document below. At the bottom there is a clear picture of “the switches“ located below the engine power levers. Pilots are trained to turn these switches OFF in case of such flight control problems.

http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm?fbclid=IwAR2WMqx6PI5wwKhSgM99taq_MhjoOBES6GcBjw7qaohKiCRp8XHWYhZ48v4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gerritkaew]

There are some country's where the Max can fly, off course the US, Boeing is made in there.. A phone Coll from CEO Dennis Muilenburg to Donald Trump did helped.

When its an Airbus they would ground it 100% !!

[MaxLee]

20 hours ago, Artisi said:

Of course, flying is different in Thailand - Farangs don't understand. 

What are you talking about, Thailand is Number 1 in Safety,..... in FACE Safety 

[Jim P]

Is it a software issue, there are witness reports that the Ethiopian jet was on fire before it hit the ground.

[Peasandmash]

23 hours ago, toenail said:

??? ????Can we trust what FAA says about the Boeing 737 Max 8 being safe??? The head administrator, Daniel Elwell,(appointed by clueless Trump), once worked as a senior vice president at Airlines for America (A4A), the largest lobbyist group serving the airline industry? What side of the fence would  he be on? Safety first or supporting Boeing? 

 

Yes, good thinking. You're right.. oops.. I didn't mean you're right (clearly). Anyways, you can go back to watching CNN.  They're now reporting a 737 MEGA has fallen on Jussie Smollett.

[Will E Vormer]

Looks more and more likely that the plane has a serious software issue. But also a design flaw caused by position of engines. I'm not sure if the designers worked around this issue or it was discovered during testing and they then tried to add the safety system on top.

Either way, I cant see how they can still keep flying them in the US. Thailand is obviously profit before anything else..

Edited March 13, 2019 by Will E Vormer