British lawmakers defy May to reject no-deal Brexit, to vote on three-month delay

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

As these politicians won't respect the referendum result and two party manifestos, a GE should be called. 

 

I can't see this happening, as so many would be shown the door and the EU won't want that, as a brexiteer could lead the house. As reported yesterday on Sky news a dozen Farages (very conservative IMO) could be elected too. No these gutless MP's will continue to thwart democracy and save their own bacon, for as long as they can.

 

Can you show where any manifesto declared Britain would exit with No Deal please?

 

The piss poor Cameron cocked it up, and the even poorer May has made it worse with her useless meddling and attempts to manipulate Britain's constitutional representative democracy.

 

As Grousy said, the smart thing would have been to respect the people's advice and then thoroughly explored, debated and voted on all options before triggering Article 50.

 

But no that would have meant the useless MP's having to actually work and do the job they are paid to do; and May has delusions of power in wanting to decree what deal people must accept. All this nonsense needs to be stopped and decisive action taken. May still clinging to threatening it's her deal or no deal exit and the inept Corbyn floundering and showing more and more why he can't ever lead the country.

 

 

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, samran said:

That’s the whole point of a parliamentary democracy isn’t it, to make a considered decision based on all the facts on behalf of those who’s interests you represent (facts not printed on the side of busses).

 

If they then don’t like your decisions, they can vote you out.

 

 

 

That's exactly the point in why the UK's representative parliamentary democracy evolved. So those elected could take a rational view and avoid knee jerk decisions based on emotion, untruths and manipulated public sentiment; and to ensure fair representation of all not just a small majority's opinion imposed on all.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Oh dear another original response and a bus. Ingenious.

 

There was a democratic referendum, There was also a GE. Regardless of peoples opinions or facts. Anyone who can say that it is a fact that this will happen after leaving the EU is quite frankly a fool, as we have not left yet. Suggestions and forecasts yes but facts, no they can't. Many MPs are going against their constituents wishes, as many are openly saying. How superior they are.

 

Here is just one example.

 

http://www.ukpol.co.uk/margaret-beckett-2017-speech-on-withdrawing-from-the-eu/

May I say at once that although I deeply regret the decision made by the British people, including in my constituency, to leave the EU, I do not seek to challenge it?

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8548383/brexit-mps-ignoring-leave-voting-constituents/

 

 

 

No one suggests the advisory referendum was undemocratic. But it was advisory, as stated in the act than enacted it into law and according to the constitution in which referendums have no legal bearing.

 

Parliament are sovereign in the UK not the people. It's not, never has and hopefully never will be a simple absolute democracy. 

 

If people don't like how their elected representative is representing them they can vote them out at the next election. 

 

Btw - May refused to debate with other party leaders on TV and concentrated on Brexit at the last election. Corbyn campaigned on many more issues and did better than anyone thought he might. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Baerboxer

[Laughing Gravy]

Just now, Baerboxer said:

Can you show where any manifesto declared Britain would exit with No Deal please?

I never said that No deal was in the manifestos. if i did please show me.

 Don't forget we were all continually informed by the Leader of the reamain campaign DC ,that leaving the EU meant no CM, SM or ECJ. The reason No deal was there because MP's did not like the result that leave won. Which if promises were kept would have meant leaving the above. so it would seem the MP's who represent the country no better than the people and will not deliver as promised. That is where we are today.

 

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

As Grousy said, the smart thing would have been to respect the people's advice and then thoroughly explored, debated and voted on all options before triggering Article 50

I disagree as a smart thing. Grouse supports a Norway + deal which is not what leaving the EU was promised, so see above.

 

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

But no that would have meant the useless MP's having to actually work and do the job they are paid to do

If this was the case they would have supported the deal. Either way a remainer MP and remainer parliament are going to do their very best to keep Britain remaining in the EU.

 

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

May still clinging to threatening it's her deal or no deal exit and the inept Corbyn floundering and showing more and more why he can't ever lead the country.

I agree she should go. Corbyn is not only a fool but a hypocrite having voted against every EU initiative, since he was elected as an MP.

 

The solution for TM to resign and get a new brexiteer leader in. Also besides locking them all in the Tower of London. A general election. Not ideal as it is kicking the can down the road but at least, it will give people to get rid of these parasites.

 

 

 

[Jonah Tenner]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

No, I criticising you

 

Canada

Norway

Switzerland

Norway has a second class membership, all the obligations without any influence. It would have been better for Norway to have no deal at all.

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Can you show where any manifesto declared Britain would exit with No Deal please?

 

The piss poor Cameron cocked it up, and the even poorer May has made it worse with her useless meddling and attempts to manipulate Britain's constitutional representative democracy.

 

As Grousy said, the smart thing would have been to respect the people's advice and then thoroughly explored, debated and voted on all options before triggering Article 50.

 

But no that would have meant the useless MP's having to actually work and do the job they are paid to do; and May has delusions of power in wanting to decree what deal people must accept. All this nonsense needs to be stopped and decisive action taken. May still clinging to threatening it's her deal or no deal exit and the inept Corbyn floundering and showing more and more why he can't ever lead the country.

 

 

BB, would it be fair to say that by the 500 MPs that triggered art 50 were indeed voting for a deal, or if a deal wasn't agreed, the no deal option was default. If they didn't agree with the rules of art 50 they should not have signed it.

[Laughing Gravy]

2 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

No one suggests the advisory referendum was undemocratic

Why are you and others still using this advisory term? We were all told that the result would be respected. It is not.

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

Similarly, the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result.

 

[puck2]

In a nutshell:   

Brexit, a chaos of fraudulent and empty promises and clueless politicians.

 

What do they, the politicians, expect now?  Postpone, postpone .... and postpone, but no real idea to find a solution to which the majority is able to agree? Idiotic. An unworthy spectacle of democracy(z)y. Democracy means to do and represent what the people want - now, after having been enlightened about the EU.

.

Edited March 14, 2019 by puck2

[Baerboxer]

7 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I never said that No deal was in the manifestos. if i did please show me.

 Don't forget we were all continually informed by the Leader of the reamain campaign DC ,that leaving the EU meant no CM, SM or ECJ. The reason No deal was there because MP's did not like the result that leave won. Which if promises were kept would have meant leaving the above. so it would seem the MP's who represent the country no better than the people and will not deliver as promised. That is where we are today.

 

I disagree as a smart thing. Grouse supports a Norway + deal which is not what leaving the EU was promised, so see above.

 

If this was the case they would have supported the deal. Either way a remainer MP and remainer parliament are going to do their very best to keep Britain remaining in the EU.

 

I agree she should go. Corbyn is not only a fool but a hypocrite having voted against every EU initiative, since he was elected as an MP.

 

The solution for TM to resign and get a new brexiteer leader in. Also besides locking them all in the Tower of London. A general election. Not ideal as it is kicking the can down the road but at least, it will give people to get rid of these parasites.

 

 

 

1. Read the second sentence in your post I originally replied to. In which you refer to 2 parties' manifestos. The whole point of Britain's representative democracy is exactly that - to elect people (hopefully) with the knowledge and skills to make informed decisions, which mat not be what everyone wants or likes, but which they deem best for the nation. Constituencies are designed to try to give fair representations to all. It's not, never has and never will be an absolute democracy. Referendums are no more than advisory. The government and parliament had a duty to explore the advice expressed in the referendum before voting on it.

 

2. I didn't comment on the make up of any deal. I said it would have been smart to have thoroughly investigated all the options, deals and no deal, understood the consequences and debate them before triggering Article 50 and putting a time pressure on. Due diligence rather than jumping in without a clue.

 

3. They might be lazy and self interested, but not stupid. Very few think May's deal is acceptable as demonstrated by her record loss when she put it to the vote!

 

4. No one voted for a hard Brexit and those politicians that supported it have in the main demonstrated they have no plan, no idea what to do, and can only snipe and criticize. We are still waiting for their long promised Plan B. And you want to put one in charge of the government? Maybe you should widen your vision. Governing is more than just Brexit.

 

 

 

 

[Baerboxer]

17 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Why are you and others still using this advisory term? We were all told that the result would be respected. It is not.

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

Similarly, the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result.

 

 

Because the law that was needed to enact the referendum, and make it legal, clearly describes it as advisory. Added to which, under the UK's constitution, referendum results have no legal force, despite what any shyster politician says, and therefore can only be advisory to parliament.

 

Parliament is the sovereign body in the UK not the people - you do understand that and what it means?

 

Cameron did not have the authority to make that statement. Neither did May although she tried it on by trying to use the Royal Prerogative to avoid parliamentary procedure - and the Supreme Court stopped her.

 

You do understand the difference between the 3 branches of government: the executive, parliament and justice system and that parliament is the sovereign body?

 

If you want to read about this go to the UK Constitutional Law Association where it's explained and debated at some length.

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Oh dear another original response and a bus. Ingenious.

 

There was a democratic referendum, There was also a GE. Regardless of peoples opinions or facts. Anyone who can say that it is a fact that this will happen after leaving the EU is quite frankly a fool, as we have not left yet. Suggestions and forecasts yes but facts, no they can't. Many MPs are going against their constituents wishes, as many are openly saying. How superior they are.

 

Here is just one example.

 

http://www.ukpol.co.uk/margaret-beckett-2017-speech-on-withdrawing-from-the-eu/

May I say at once that although I deeply regret the decision made by the British people, including in my constituency, to leave the EU, I do not seek to challenge it?

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8548383/brexit-mps-ignoring-leave-voting-constituents/

 

 

hanging on in quiet desperation is the english way

[Baerboxer]

26 minutes ago, vogie said:

BB, would it be fair to say that by the 500 MPs that triggered art 50 were indeed voting for a deal, or if a deal wasn't agreed, the no deal option was default. If they didn't agree with the rules of art 50 they should not have signed it.

 

Indeed. One wonders why they were so keen to sign Article 50 and then tread water for so long watching the clock.

 

Maybe it suited various political agendas. One thing seems sure. The current crop of MP's, of all parties, are in the main following their own agendas and schemes and not putting the country and people first.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Why is no deal dead now, last nights vote was only advisory. When Parliament triggered art 50 it became law that we leave with a deal or leave without a deal. The only way to get no deal off the table is to vote for a deal or revoke art 50.

How perspicacious of you. You think parliament will not take whatever action is necessary to avoid no deal now? They will wait and see if postponement is possible. If push comes to shove they will cancel A50. Sorry, but it's over. IT'S OVER!

 

At least for those wanting a hard Brexit....

Edited March 14, 2019 by Grouse

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Please do not categorise us all as you Brits. Maybe the shyster MPs who are self serving and do not give a hoots what the people say. Bring on the next GE and we will see what happens.

Even better, let's agree/assume that the eu will allow an extension - as almost certainly will happen, as no deal is not in their interest.

 

Somehow I 'know' that this extension will fall short of the EMPs election date ????.

 

After EMPs have been elected (without any uk EMPs) the extension will be increased.  IMO obviously.

 

And uk MPs will continue hoping for something to happen that gives them a shot at winning another referendum and retaining their seats.....

[david555]

The only thing has to be done is let tick the clock further and just the E.U. save his own , and refuse any extension as there is anyway no solid plan …. job done... Brexit finalized and trade can be start a new ..as all business like to make money anyway

 

With those hopeless H.O.C.& U.K.Gov. there is no handling 

Edited March 14, 2019 by david555

[Laughing Gravy]

19 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

No one voted for a hard Brexit

Before I say you are talking absolute rollocks, what is your definition of a hard brexit as that term was never mentioned in the referendum.

 

If it as I am guessing staying in the CU or SM or staying in the ECJ then I will definitely say you are wrong.

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, sammieuk1 said:

Just wondering if there maybe any spare generals going later this month or a home grown one to restore some order to this shit shambles???? 

Nah, it will be down to the electorate to sort this mess out - and hopefully they will at the next GE.

[Laughing Gravy]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

hanging on in quiet desperation is the english way

Clearly stating a fact that politicians have stated one thing and now are changing their minds to suit themselves. Well as half English/Irish what the hell has that got to do with your comment.

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How perspicacious of you. You think parliament will not take whatever action is necessary to avoid no deal now? They will wait and see if postponement is possible. If push comes to shove they will cancel A50. Sorry, but it's over. IT'S OVER!

 

At least for those wanting a hard Brexit....

You are telling me just what I told you, 'agree a deal or revoke art 50.' 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Give us more was the cry

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

"Please Mrs Bumble, can I have some more" said Oliver Twist.

[welovesundaysatspace]

44 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

We were all told that the result would be respected.

No, you were not. The law explicitly told you the exact opposite: that the referendum is only advisory. 

 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

"Please Mrs Bumble, can I have some more" said Oliver Twist.

 

[evadgib]

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

hanging on in quiet desperation is the english way

Ironically written by Roger Waters before we entered the EU. 

[dick dasterdly]

28 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

1. Read the second sentence in your post I originally replied to. In which you refer to 2 parties' manifestos. The whole point of Britain's representative democracy is exactly that - to elect people (hopefully) with the knowledge and skills to make informed decisions, which mat not be what everyone wants or likes, but which they deem best for the nation. Constituencies are designed to try to give fair representations to all. It's not, never has and never will be an absolute democracy. Referendums are no more than advisory. The government and parliament had a duty to explore the advice expressed in the referendum before voting on it.

 

2. I didn't comment on the make up of any deal. I said it would have been smart to have thoroughly investigated all the options, deals and no deal, understood the consequences and debate them before triggering Article 50 and putting a time pressure on. Due diligence rather than jumping in without a clue.

 

3. They might be lazy and self interested, but not stupid. Very few think May's deal is acceptable as demonstrated by her record loss when she put it to the vote!

 

4. No one voted for a hard Brexit and those politicians that supported it have in the main demonstrated they have no plan, no idea what to do, and can only snipe and criticize. We are still waiting for their long promised Plan B. And you want to put one in charge of the government? Maybe you should widen your vision. Governing is more than just Brexit.

 

 

 

 

"to elect people (hopefully) with the knowledge and skills to make informed decisions, which mat not be what everyone wants or likes, but which they deem best for the nation."

 

And that's precisely where the concept falls down, as they only care about themselves. Plus, they only have knowledge and skills in certain areas (like everyone else) - and I repeat, they only care about themselves!

 

"They might be lazy and self interested, but not stupid. Very few think May's deal is acceptable as demonstrated by her record loss when she put it to the vote!"

 

Quite, they realised that the may/eu deal was not going to work with the electorate - and so took the self-interested route, trying to stop brexit another way - hoping that the electorate wouldn't notice....

[Basil B]

5 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

leaving the EU without a transition agreement in place is the equivalent of leaping off a tall building and planning for a landing on the way down.

"leaping off a tall building and planning for a landing on the way down". That's Brexit for you,

Edited March 14, 2019 by Basil B

[persimmon]

Amazing how the politicians have colluded to thwart the democratic will of the people.

[evadgib]

3 hours ago, mickymouse1 said:

Europe's  Laughing Stock, thanks to David Cam..May is a real classic tory????????????????????????????????

Unfortunately no she isn't.

I have no idea where this is going but I recon these'll be selling out between Sunderland & Westminster in the next fortnight despite Farage stating as recently as yesterday that the demo will be peaceful.

Edited March 14, 2019 by evadgib

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are telling me just what I told you, 'agree a deal or revoke art 50.' 

You think our MPs should revoke art 50?

[Laughing Gravy]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

No, you were not. The law explicitly told you the exact opposite: that the referendum is only advisory. 

 

Oh dear the remainiac club are out in force today.

 

For those who are physically challenged with their eyes and ears and have their heads in the sand. I have to say I can't believe you are still banging on about this. Most sensible people have moved on..

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/david-cameron-says-he-will-ask-eu-leaders-for-clear-legally-binding-commitment-to-exempt-uk-from-a6728181.html

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/david-cameron-european-union-referendum-pledge

 

This is what Jezza said after the result. seems to have changed his mind again.

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

You think our MPs should revoke art 50?

I certainly hope not but these self serving clowns, nothing would surprise me.