What is your legal status and consequences if failing to meet a post seasoning bank book check?

[Jingthing]

This seems to be massively consequential issue and yet I don't think I've read it being seriously discussed here even once.

 

I'm talking about the new rules for bank account based extension applications.

 

Let's say you got a recent retirement extension after March 1 (effective date of the new rules) based on 800K in a Thai bank seasoned, and you were given a notice that you must return in 90 days to show your bank book to verify you haven't gone one baht under the 800k (which is based on the new rules saying that there is now required PRE seasoning and also the new required POST seasoning).

 

To add, you are also not allowed to go under 400K after that until your next year's 800K baht seasoning period begins. Will there be additional checks throughout the year to show bank books AGAIN to verify not going under 400K? Optimists will say no. But do they know? I think not. 

 

There were many optimists saying, calm down, take a chill pill, don't you worry your pretty little retired oldster heads, this isn't really going to be enforced until you need to come in for your next year's renewal application,. 

 

Well, sometimes the optimists are right and sometimes they are wrong.

 

In this case, we already know, sadly, they were wrong.

 

In multiple offices already people applying starting March 1 (and I think in some cases even before) people have been given the dreaded notice. Come in in 90 days to show your bank book.

 

OK, clear enough of what you need to do if you get that notice. Don't go under the 800K during that first post seasoning period.

 

All that build up to this important question.

 

WHAT IF YOU FAIL!?!

What if you go under?

 

An article in Phuket skirted around this question by saying -- just don't do it.

 

Well, great, that is really helpful.

 

But let's get real for a moment -- for whatever reasons some people are going to go under.

 

So then what?

 

So you go in for your 90 day post seasoning show your bank book thing and you're under 800K.

What are the consequences. I mean exactly. People really need to know the answer. This could potentially be a life and death situation for some of the retired expats here.

 

I can only guess the consequences, but I don't know. 

 

Does anyone actually know?

When is immigration going to tell us?

 

Or do we need to wait for a report from an unfortunate person that goes under?

 

Here is my guess. Only a guess. Your one year extension would be stamped as cancelled. You would be given one week to leave the country.

 

Just a guess. If nobody knows, what do you think? Does immigration even know yet? If they know, what haven't they told us?

 

Do other people agree with me this is a massively important thing for people to know?

 

Maybe it means you're on overstay from the day you went under. Maybe you'll be immediately put into immigration prison, deported and blacklisted.  (No worries I suppose if you have large assets in Thailand to sell and can no longer enter the country.) Again, I don't know, but that wouldn't really surprise me. Would it surprise you?

 

I am not posting this to get people upset. This a real thing. These new rules are real. They are enforcing them. I think we have a vital need to know what it actually means for those that fail to meet the bank book checks. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Jingthing

[Gweiloman]

Nothing will happen. You are just scaremongering. 

 

The new rules are rules regarding applying for an extension the following year i.e. that you will need 800k seasoned for 3 months after a successful application followed by 7 months of 400 k and another 2 months of 800 k

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Nothing will happen. You are just scaremongering. 

 

The new rules are rules regarding applying for an extension the following year i.e. that you will need 800k seasoned for 3 months after a successful application followed by 7 months of 400 k and another 2 months of 800 k

Sorry but I can tell you with confidence that you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. We already have multiple credible reports from multiple offices of people getting their extensions after March 1 being EXPLICITLY ORDERED to show up at immigration 90 days AFTER to show their bank books.

Scare mongering? Depending on the consequences, perhaps people need to wake up and get more scared. 

 

Of course, the more facts the better. Maybe it won't be that bad.

But it sounds to me like it will be quite bad if you fail.

Why do I think that?

Because if there aren't serious consequences (guessing again, at least instantly cancelling your annual extension to stay) then why would they be ordering people to come in 90 days AFTER the extension? Not for their health I reckon and certainly not for our health either for the unfortunate ones that have failed bank books. 

 

Again, does anybody KNOW? I am not expecting that anyone here does. At least yet. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Jingthing

[luckyluke]

We can only presume for the moment. 

Maybe one day Immigration will let us know. 

In the meantime one can only approach this problem in a optimistic or pessimistic way. 

 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

We can only presume for the moment. 

Maybe one day Immigration will let us know. 

In the meantime one can only approach this problem in a optimistic or pessimistic way. 

 

Back to that Phuket quote, when he was asked about this and he said just don't do it, when the question was obviously EXACTLY what I'm asking, what will happen, it seems to me that indicates that he didn't know either. So if that theory is correct and immigration doesn't know either, then there can't be any answers about this unless/until we get our first actual report of an unfortunate bank book criminal. 

[luckyluke]

And as usual this will prove nothing, as it can be different from one office to another, even from one officer to another. 

We can only hope their will be a clear written statement by Immigration, with no possibility of interpretation. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

Let's get back at least to the gist of my guesses.

Think about it.

How could it mean anything other than the end of your legal stay in Thailand based on your current "annual" extension?

I think that's a fair assumption. 

In other cases like that, what happens? 

I already said the range of my guesses (from bad to worse).

Surely they won't just tell people everything is still OK now. 

 

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Nothing will happen. You are just scaremongering. 

 

The new rules are rules regarding applying for an extension the following year i.e. that you will need 800k seasoned for 3 months after a successful application followed by 7 months of 400 k and another 2 months of 800 k

You do not know that. If that were the case, there would be no reason whatsoever to ask someone to return with their bankbook after 3 months.

The new rules, as I read them, refer to the current extension. Ie 2 months before, 3 months after and then 6-7 months at 400,000, again after. No mention of next years application there.

 

Myself, I kinda think you would be a bit of a schmuck to go to immigration with a bankbook showing under 800k after the post 3 months. Perhaps do on-line 90 day reporting, see the year out, and go agent or Visa from home country. 

[Peterw42]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Sorry but I can tell you with confidence that you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. We already have multiple credible reports from multiple offices of people getting their extensions after March 1 being EXPLICITLY ORDERED to show up at immigration 90 days AFTER to show their bank books.

Scare mongering? Depending on the consequences, perhaps people need to wake up and get more scared. 

 

Of course, the more facts the better. Maybe it won't be that bad.

But it sounds to me like it will be quite bad if you fail.

Why do I think that?

Because if there aren't serious consequences (guessing again, at least instantly cancelling your annual extension to stay) then why would they be ordering people to come in 90 days AFTER the extension? Not for their health I reckon and certainly not for our health either for the unfortunate ones that have failed bank books. 

 

Again, does anybody KNOW? I am not expecting that anyone here does. At least yet. 

Have there been actual cases where people have been given a date to return ? Maybe I havnt read all the threads but I have only seen a "you may" get a call to come in. Lots of threads where people are still saying it will be checked at 90 day report etc, and mixing up the two different 90 days.. 

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

Have there been actual cases where people have been given a date to return ? Maybe I havnt read all the threads but I have only seen a "you may" get a call to come in.

A couple of reports from Jomtiem from people who have recently done retirement extensions. 

[Peasandmash]

I've had over 800k in a fixed Thai Bank account continuously since 2013. In the past I've taken the interest payment, but now I think I will let it ride (haha) as I'm sure in the near future more money will be needed to continue to live in this beautiful country.

 

Anyway, when I do go to Immigration to renew my retirement visa I'll be curious to see if anyone makes any comment to me whatsoever about checking my balance in 90 days.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Peasandmash

[Peterw42]

OP, Any failure would most likely apply to your "next" extension not your current extension (that you already qualified for). The requirements are basically for your next extension, the rules etc dont mention cancelling an exsisting.

 

[baansgr]

No one can know until after 1st June, maybe be reports then of what is said by I.O. I did my extension in February but certainly wouldnt qualify under the rules so for me 2021 will be crunch time.

[Kenny202]

Friend of mine renewing his retirement visa this week at Khon Kaen IO. He previously was using letters from the UK embassy which are no longer obtainable. He explained to them he will only have 6 months 65k deposits from abroad wen he renews his extension expecting leniency per Immigration press releases. No go. No 12 months history no extension

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[ubonjoe]

I have cleaned out several abusive, inflammatory and baiting posts along with the replies to them.

No further notice will given when whty are removed from now on.

If it persists this topic will be closed.

[mfd101]

Two fairly obvious responses to the OP's question & subsequents: (1) The POINT of the post-reasoning constraint is to catch out those who, in the past, didn't have the money & borrowed it from a so-called 'agent' & paid it back the next day ie cheats. This does imply that there won't be much interest in your bank balance AFTER the 1st 90 days and until the next extension of stay. (2) There's a pretty good chance noone on the Thai side of the desk has thought past that. Forward planning is not a strength in this culture (think preps for monsoon, preps for drought, safety & risk concepts ... ).

[glegolo]

I haven´t read ALL the posts yet, but me for one, have read somewhere that if you fail and go under the 800K or the following 400K you will suffer from it during your NEXT application for a new extension the following year. That is what I have read anyhow.

 

Good luck to you the "4 unlucky ones".....

 

glegolo

Edited March 16, 2019 by glegolo

[graemeaylward]

Friend of mine renewing his retirement visa this week at Khon Kaen IO. He previously was using letters from the UK embassy which are no longer obtainable. He explained to them he will only have 6 months 65k deposits from abroad wen he renews his extension expecting leniency per Immigration press releases. No go. No 12 months history no extension

 

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Perhaps when he goes back to do his extension, he should take a copy of the "leniency" letter from BJ with him. He should be able to find something by doing a search on Thaivisa. No-one can be expected to produce 12 months of statements (unless you have always transferred your money to a Thai bank account monthly as I have done for last 6 years) because the order only applied after December 2018!

 

 

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[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, glegolo said:

I haven´t read ALL the posts yet, but me for one, have read somewhere that if you fail and go under the 800K or the following 400K you will suffer from it during your NEXT application for a new extension the following year. That is what I have read anyhow.

 

Good luck to you the "4 unlucky ones".....

 

glegolo

Technically has the rules are presently written , the conditions for keeping money in the Bank are for the existing extension , not a requirement for future extensions. It is reasonable to assume that immigration would argue that the previous evidence of failure to adhere any conditions give rise to the probability of not fulfilling the requirements attached of any future extension granted.

However if this is to be the case , how long would such a denial of extensions be enforced. It would seem somewhat irrational to deny an extension and then allow a person to immediately obtain non-o with the purpose of restarting the extension process .

 

It should be noted that it presently requires  a senior immigration official to revoke any permission of stay .

 

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by cleopatra2

[smedly]

3 hours ago, Peasandmash said:

I'm sure in the near future more money will be needed to continue to live in this beautiful country.

in real terms (your home currency to baht exch rate) it is already over 20% more from 2-3 years ago - even more if you go back further, so that balance of 800k is costing a lot more in your home currency today. Typically the amount of your home currency needed to meet 800k today would be worth well over 1m baht 3 years ago - go back 10 years and it is half that again

[mokwit]

My guess is it will be 7 days to get out of the country either at interim call in or at 1Y renewal. Why not? Those are officially the terms for someone who has worked here for years but whose job has ended.

 

Good luck retrieving all your stuff and selling a condo.

 

The assumption that there is no reason you cannot go outside Thailand and start the whole process again with Non O and 800k from abroad may be false against a backdrop of 'fortress Thailand'. You may be rejected at the online appointment stage which it seems is coming worldwide. My guess is that some immigration red flags will be hard coded and anyone applying with these in their record will be rejected at online appointment stage. Think about it creates FAR LESS fuss and foreign media attention if people are rejected at application stage rather than at the airport having flown in.

Edited March 16, 2019 by mokwit

[smedly]

3 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, Any failure would most likely apply to your "next" extension not your current extension (that you already qualified for). The requirements are basically for your next extension, the rules etc dont mention cancelling an exsisting.

 

don't agree, I think your current extension would be cancelled and you would not be able to renew (if allowed) for up to 2 months depending on when your balance dropped below 800k 

 

that is a considerable penalty to have to leave the country and start the whole process from scratch by obtaining a new 90 day visa

Edited March 16, 2019 by smedly

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Have there been actual cases where people have been given a date to return ? Maybe I havnt read all the threads but I have only seen a "you may" get a call to come in. Lots of threads where people are still saying it will be checked at 90 day report etc, and mixing up the two different 90 days.

Yes.

Absolutely.

That is a FACT.

The premise of this thread goes forward from that fact. 

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Friend of mine renewing his retirement visa this week at Khon Kaen IO. He previously was using letters from the UK embassy which are no longer obtainable. He explained to them he will only have 6 months 65k deposits from abroad wen he renews his extension expecting leniency per Immigration press releases. No go. No 12 months history no extension

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Your post isn't relevant to this topic. 

This topic is about a VERY SPECIFIC thing.

People doing bank account method.

People that got a paper ORDERING them to come back 90 days AFTER their annual extension to show that their bank book hasn't gone under.

Please people, start from there. 

The question here is WHAT HAPPENS to people if they show up following the order to show banl book after 90 days if they do go under?

This could be devastating for the expats involved.

It's not trivial.

The orders have already happened. 

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I have cleaned out several abusive, inflammatory and baiting posts along with the replies to them.

No further notice will given when whty are removed from now on.

If it persists this topic will be closed.

That is appreciated.

However, as I'm sure you're aware, you specifically are regarded as the top guru here on visa issues.

As the immigration leader in Phuket didn't offer any information on what happens if people show up for their 90 day show bank book thing, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that you know either.

But within that context, I would appreciate to hear from you if you have any theories on what will happen to such people if they should up for the ordered 90 day bank book thing and they have gone under the required post seasoning level.

For example, I can't imagine that their annual extension would still be valid. Do you agree with that assumption? If not, why? If so, then what do you think might happen to the expats at that point, with the cancelled annual extension?

I understand if your only reply to this is I don't know, it's too early to know, and I'm not ready to offer any speculation.

But I am asking.  I think this is a very important issue. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Jingthing

[Peterw42]

.

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Peterw42

[Kenny202]

That is appreciated.
However, as I'm sure you're aware, you specifically are regarded as the top guru here on visa issues.
As the immigration leader in Phuket didn't offer any information on what happens if people show up for their 90 day show bank book thing, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that you know either.
But within that context, I would appreciate to hear from you if you have any theories on what will happen to such people if they should up for the ordered 90 day bank book thing and they have gone under the required post seasoning level.
For example, I can't imagine that their annual extension would still be valid. Do you agree with that assumption? If not, why? If so, then what do you think might happen to the expats at that point, with the cancelled annual extension?
I understand if your only reply to this is I don't know, it's too early to know, and I'm not ready to offer any speculation.
But I am asking.  I think this is a very important issue. 

Your asking someone for an impossible answer to a hypothetical question of how someone can get off the hook if they do something totally stupid.

What happened in these circumstances with the old rules? There is no difference now in that respect

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[Peterw42]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Your post isn't relevant to this topic. 

This topic is about a VERY SPECIFIC thing.

People doing bank account method.

People that got a paper ORDERING them to come back 90 days AFTER their annual extension to show that their bank book hasn't gone under.

Please people, start from there. 

The question here is WHAT HAPPENS to people if they show up following the order to show banl book after 90 days if they do go under?

This could be devastating for the expats involved.

It's not trivial.

The orders have already happened. 

Does anyone have a snapshot/copy of one of the orders ? Would be interesting to see the wording etc.

[Jingthing]

7 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, Any failure would most likely apply to your "next" extension not your current extension (that you already qualified for). The requirements are basically for your next extension, the rules etc dont mention cancelling an exsisting.

 

That is NOT logical for the people that have ALREADY been given a paper ORDERING them to come in 90 days after their annual extension approval.

I know what you're saying was the optimists line BEFORE the 90 day show bank book orders started happening.

That view is now obviously dated and obsolete.

If your theory was correct, they would not be ORDERING people to show up 90 days after to show that their bank books show that they have complied with the required post extension seasoning rule (800K in the account AFTER the extension). 

People -- please focus on the real question here. The orders are real. We do need to know the consequences for people that follow the order to show up and have not complied.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Just now, Peterw42 said:

Does anyone have a snapshot/copy of one of the orders ? Would be interesting to see the wording etc.

This has been well covered on other threads. Please don't post here if you don't accept the FACT that these orders are being issued. It's a total diversion. This topic is BEYOND that.