Feeling Guilty

[soundman]

I make it a policy in my business to offer financial help to staff members.

This means that if a staff member has been with our business for a certain period of time he becomes eligible to borrow money from the business. We treat this transaction as any financial institution would. They sign a contract that agrees to terms of repayment, interest, and surety.

If they leave the business for any reason the terms of the loan do not change.

Staff who have borrowed money do leave. They do not always go to other jobs. Their payments fall behind. We send the debt collectors after them. (usually a member of the local police force who keeps 30% of the received monies for his after hours work)

So I had two staff who left, fell behind in their payments, and had the police arrive to collect.

These two genius's thought they could raise the money owed by, you guessed it, selling drugs. Today the police busted them, with traficable qty's of yaba. They will probably spend 2 - 5 years in prison.

They have both called my office for assistance.

When working for me they were both reasonable staff members with good de-meanors. (They are both in their late teens, early twenties)

Should I help them?

The bail surety alone is over 200K Baht.

Feelings?

Soundman.

[tingtong]

sorry, why to have feeling for their stupidity? how do you know they didnt sell drugs before?

crime is crime, and have to be panished. should they pay, police wouldnt go. and if you have your guarantees, you can claim your money anyway. what else to do here?

[womble]

No you shouldn't.

They have fallen behind in their payments, that means it's very likely they won't repay you this time. How do you know they were dealing drugs to pay you back? they probobally took you for a mug before, thought they could get away with it, now they use this as an excuse in the hope you will bail them out.

I don't know them but from what you have said they are certainly of dubious charactor, they don't repay their loans and they deal drugs.

I wouldn't help them at all and I certainly wouldn't feel guilty about it.

Rice groul and a sore doot for the next few years.

Som num nah!

[Prakanong]

I would say no.

Does time served on remand count as part of the sentence as in the UK?

If so they will be better getting it over with.

They might skip bail and you would lose the money.

If you feel sympathetic towards them put some money ion their jail account for medicines, extra food etc - that will help a lot.

[alexth]

I would say yes...only if you can have an assurance that you'll get your money back. If you have this kind of money available without having to sacrifice other things, you should do it. I would. Sometimes we make mistakes or even BIG mistakes while young and need help. I for one, would do it.

[soundman]

Thaks for all the input.

I agree with all arguments put forth.

They are studip & therefore they deserve their punishment.

They are only young & maybe deserve a second chance.

I will go to see them in lockup today & have a chat with them. If they both seem very repentant i will consider writing them a decent reference for their court appearance, which, hopefully will count for something with police & the sitting judge.

Thanks again,

Soundman.

[solo siam]

If its drugs I wouldn't get involved in any way, it might falsely give the impression you are involved somehow. You certainly don't want questions arising about how a farang is involved with these drug dealers, also I'm not sure legally where you lie on the whole lending situation.

You are charging interest and making people sign contracts for lending, I'm not sure how it works here but wouldn't you need a license of sorts to professionally lend money (you are charging interest).

[p_brownstone]

I would not get involved in this at all.

Worst case – you turn up at the Police Station and some greedy Officer sees an easy way to make money by persuading the two culprits to say that they got involved with selling drugs because you made them do it in order to get your money back (or some other reason). The 2 chaps will probably jump at the opportunity if offered a deal by the police.

The Police then have YOU – a rich Farang who has far more to lose by going to prison and then being deported – and you will end up paying a LOT of money to either fight the charges or, more likely, as they originally intended, to pay off the Police.

Stay away would be my firm advice.

Patrick

[nonthaburial]

I make it a policy in my business to offer financial help to staff members.

This means that if a staff member has been with our business for a certain period of time he becomes eligible to borrow money from the business. We treat this transaction as any financial institution would. They sign a contract that agrees to terms of repayment, interest, and surety.

If they leave the business for any reason the terms of the loan do not change.

Staff who have borrowed money do leave. They do not always go to other jobs. Their payments fall behind. We send the debt collectors after them. (usually a member of the local police force who keeps 30% of the received monies for his after hours work)

So I had two staff who left, fell behind in their payments, and had the police arrive to collect.

These two genius's thought they could raise the money owed by, you guessed it, selling drugs. Today the police busted them, with traficable qty's of yaba. They will probably spend 2 - 5 years in prison.

They have both called my office for assistance.

When working for me they were both reasonable staff members with good de-meanors. (They are both in their late teens, early twenties)

Should I help them?

The bail surety alone is over 200K Baht.

Feelings?

Soundman.

Soundman, please accept my comments are not an attempt to flame, but I question your man management skills.

You recently posted another piece about how your staff were ripping you off etc etc, now this thread, again on ways you were getting ripped off financially.

You are obviously a well meaning and kind hearted person, but unfortunately, here in Asia 98% of your staff will see you as a patsy and use you as so !.

In my 25 years working throughout Asia, I think I could count on one hand the staff I met who could budget their salary. Believe me a lot of staff members are down to their last baht long before pay day gets around again.

Your generosity is likely seen by your staff as a weakeness and guaranteed you will be exploited.

As for these two idioits who have been caught drug dealing stay away, you gave them your help and trust and they <deleted> on you. Learn your lessons fast or you will be the next asking to borrow money !

[taxexile]

Your generosity is likely seen by your staff as a weakeness and guaranteed you will be exploited.

As for these two idioits who have been caught drug dealing stay away, you gave them your help and trust and they <deleted> on you. Learn your lessons fast or you will be the next asking to borrow money !

Worst case – you turn up at the Police Station and some greedy Officer sees an easy way to make money by persuading the two culprits to say that they got involved with selling drugs because you made them do it in order to get your money back (or some other reason). The 2 chaps will probably jump at the opportunity if offered a deal by the police.

they brought all this down upon their own heads , they must have known the risks involved , stay away from them , dont get involved with the police or courts , dont post bail , and dont visit them whilst they await trial.

all it would take is one scheming policeman on the make to get you horribly involved in all this

if you still feel the need to help them , then write off the original debt , but stay away from them.

[womble]

Your generosity is likely seen by your staff as a weakeness and guaranteed you will be exploited.

As for these two idioits who have been caught drug dealing stay away, you gave them your help and trust and they <deleted> on you. Learn your lessons fast or you will be the next asking to borrow money !

Worst case – you turn up at the Police Station and some greedy Officer sees an easy way to make money by persuading the two culprits to say that they got involved with selling drugs because you made them do it in order to get your money back (or some other reason). The 2 chaps will probably jump at the opportunity if offered a deal by the police.

they brought all this down upon their own heads , they must have known the risks involved , stay away from them , dont get involved with the police or courts , dont post bail , and dont visit them whilst they await trial.

all it would take is one scheming policeman on the make to get you horribly involved in all this

if you still feel the need to help them , then write off the original debt , but stay away from them.

Sound advice.

IT only takes one scheming policeman, of which there are many.

Do not get involved.

[soundman]

I make it a policy in my business to offer financial help to staff members.

This means that if a staff member has been with our business for a certain period of time he becomes eligible to borrow money from the business. We treat this transaction as any financial institution would. They sign a contract that agrees to terms of repayment, interest, and surety.

If they leave the business for any reason the terms of the loan do not change.

Staff who have borrowed money do leave. They do not always go to other jobs. Their payments fall behind. We send the debt collectors after them. (usually a member of the local police force who keeps 30% of the received monies for his after hours work)

So I had two staff who left, fell behind in their payments, and had the police arrive to collect.

These two genius's thought they could raise the money owed by, you guessed it, selling drugs. Today the police busted them, with traficable qty's of yaba. They will probably spend 2 - 5 years in prison.

They have both called my office for assistance.

When working for me they were both reasonable staff members with good de-meanors. (They are both in their late teens, early twenties)

Should I help them?

The bail surety alone is over 200K Baht.

Feelings?

Soundman.

Soundman, please accept my comments are not an attempt to flame, but I question your man management skills.

You recently posted another piece about how your staff were ripping you off etc etc, now this thread, again on ways you were getting ripped off financially.

You are obviously a well meaning and kind hearted person, but unfortunately, here in Asia 98% of your staff will see you as a patsy and use you as so !.

In my 25 years working throughout Asia, I think I could count on one hand the staff I met who could budget their salary. Believe me a lot of staff members are down to their last baht long before pay day gets around again.

Your generosity is likely seen by your staff as a weakeness and guaranteed you will be exploited.

As for these two idioits who have been caught drug dealing stay away, you gave them your help and trust and they <deleted> on you. Learn your lessons fast or you will be the next asking to borrow money !

Appreciate all the comments - not feeling "flamed" at all.

We have a staff of about 40 in this particular business, however, it is still run as a family business & is managed by thai's (family members) - who incedently own a number of other businesses. (petrol station, supermarket, road building / civil construction). i am the engineer - technical advisor in our business.

Wit a large staff base like this, you tend to have more problems playing the %'s. Have three staff - one might steal once per year. Have 300 staff - 100 might attempt to steal once per year.

We have good relations with all the local police & by writing references for our staff would be in no way implicated or in line for any "black mail" from the police. The family actually make a yearly donation to the local police end of year party, & that seems to cover most police service for the year. (quick response in emergency, security patrols more regulary than other business's etc.)

As to the two idiots caught with drugs. They were both good staff members whilst working for me. Both pleasant to be around & liked by their co-workers. Being young they probbably do deserve a little help, if they are serious about reforming their ways.

I am not about to shell out for their bond. Some time inside the box will probably make them think a lot about what they have done.

As to generosity, alot of that actually comes from the thai side of the business. It might be consrued as some as being weakness, but only the stupid ones. My family over here are very wealthy, & the money has been made in a generation & a half. To make money & keep it(especially in thailand) one is definately not stupid. So on a lot of these issues I defer to their way of thinking.

Forum consesus so far:

They were stupid, don't become involved, let them sit in jaol.

Once again appreciate the comments.

Soundman.

[taxexile]

let your thai family deal with it , they will know the correct "procedure" according to local custom should they wish to help in any way.

[toptuan]

I agree with most of the posters, that if you bail them out of this mess, you reinforce the negative notion that you can always escape the consequences of bad/wrong decisions in life.

You seem like a very decent and generous person as an employer in Thailand. I would propose another route...

To show your generosity and goodwill, there are a lot of opportunities to do this after they are sentenced. Thais in jail need a lot of outside assistance to make their prison time survivable.

Just a few visits (no risk to you after they have been sentenced and remanded to jail), and occasional small donations for their needs (a place to sleep on the floor, something to eat beyond the basic gruel and soup, bargaining power for small rights and privileges, etc.) would go a long way to show your concern and generous heart. Quite possibly, you'll do more good on the tail end of this process than in the middle of it.

For a wonderful up-to-date primer on young Thais in jail, check out this website: http://www.thaiprisonlife.com/ Much advice is available there on how to help, in a significant way, someone behind Thai bars to survive the experience. (...and possibly come out a better person, not embittered with life, physically and emotionally intact, etc.)

[soundman]

I agree with most of the posters, that if you bail them out of this mess, you reinforce the negative notion that you can always escape the consequences of bad/wrong decisions in life.

You seem like a very decent and generous person as an employer in Thailand. I would propose another route...

To show your generosity and goodwill, there are a lot of opportunities to do this after they are sentenced. Thais in jail need a lot of outside assistance to make their prison time survivable.

Just a few visits (no risk to you after they have been sentenced and remanded to jail), and occasional small donations for their needs (a place to sleep on the floor, something to eat beyond the basic gruel and soup, bargaining power for small rights and privileges, etc.) would go a long way to show your concern and generous heart. Quite possibly, you'll do more good on the tail end of this process than in the middle of it.

For a wonderful up-to-date primer on young Thais in jail, check out this website: http://www.thaiprisonlife.com/ Much advice is available there on how to help, in a significant way, someone behind Thai bars to survive the experience. (...and possibly come out a better person, not embittered with life, physically and emotionally intact, etc.)

Comments & ideas that I haven't previously considered. Don't know much about thai jaols but have heard they are rather god-forsaken places.

Good food for thought.

Thanx heaps,

Soundman.

[GuestHouse]

I'd give them a wide berth if I were you.

I wouldn't want my name ascociated with anyone who is messing with drugs in Thailand.

Let them continue along the path they chose alone. You owe them nothing.

[Briggsy]

Your OP is lacking some facts, I think.

If you're only the engineer, why would staff who have left and then been arrested for selling serious drugs call a farang employee for assistance? All the Thais I know would seek assistance from the most highly-placed, wealthy Thai they could get hold of.

Why on earth would you consider getting involved? As a farang, you know very little of the true situation and can effect nothing.

Confused

Briggsy

[LoveDaBlues]

I make it a policy in my business to offer financial help to staff members.

This means that if a staff member has been with our business for a certain period of time he becomes eligible to borrow money from the business. We treat this transaction as any financial institution would. They sign a contract that agrees to terms of repayment, interest, and surety.

If they leave the business for any reason the terms of the loan do not change.

Staff who have borrowed money do leave. They do not always go to other jobs. Their payments fall behind. We send the debt collectors after them. (usually a member of the local police force who keeps 30% of the received monies for his after hours work)

So I had two staff who left, fell behind in their payments, and had the police arrive to collect.

These two genius's thought they could raise the money owed by, you guessed it, selling drugs. Today the police busted them, with traficable qty's of yaba. They will probably spend 2 - 5 years in prison.

They have both called my office for assistance.

When working for me they were both reasonable staff members with good de-meanors. (They are both in their late teens, early twenties)

Should I help them?

The bail surety alone is over 200K Baht.

Feelings?

Soundman.

They basically screwed you when they up and left. You must have needed them in the biz or you never would have hired them to start with. I think you're crazy to even consider getting involved.

[SeanBangkok]

how much interest do you charge?

why do you use police s debt collecters?

[soundman]

Your OP is lacking some facts, I think.

If you're only the engineer, why would staff who have left and then been arrested for selling serious drugs call a farang employee for assistance? All the Thais I know would seek assistance from the most highly-placed, wealthy Thai they could get hold of.

Why on earth would you consider getting involved? As a farang, you know very little of the true situation and can effect nothing.

Confused

Briggsy

Just to clear up your confusion:

I could have written 4 pages for the original post, however, long posts are a little painful to read sometimes. Keeping it simple is a little better, even for the lack of detail.

I may only be the engineer, howeverm if I am not there, neither is the business. The business was started for me to have something to do whilst living in Thaialand. I'm sure you may have noticed that their are not many jobs available in Thailand for expats who are not working for multi-nationals.

Secondly, that wealthy, highly influential thai would be..... my wife & her family. Maybe thats why the ex staff were calling......

Thirdly, I'm not sure if you have conducted business in Thailand or have any experience with hiring thai labour, but when a thai person decideds to work with you, it may often be considered more than a job for some. They are basically becoming junior members of your family, you being a lot more responsible for your staff member than just paying their salary at the end of the month. Who do they turn to when another family is sick with something that is not covered in the 30B gold card medical scheme??? You of course & if you want to keep that staff member you are almost obliged to lend them the money.

To the post below;

interest - 1.50B per month - 18% per annum. (this is the maximum the law allows for)

We use the police as debt collectors because they are the cheapest & most effective form of debt collection.

Using a bunch of thugs only gets you in trouble with the police.

Soundman.

[taxexile]

Using a bunch of thugs only gets you in trouble with the police.

dont debt collecting off-duty police officers qualify as thugs ?

[alexth]

And I think here is a topic about western cowardness and selfishness.

If the man says he or his family wouldn't get their name dirty by helping these youngsters...why not do it? Are they guilty? Yes. Were they stupid? Definitely. Do they deserve a 2nd chance? YES BAck home...how many youngsters are dealing extasy and pot? A lot of them, without trying to flame anyone, maybe your kids did it or doing it. I'm not saying to save their <deleted> everytime they do it, but just a bit of support.

Think of it this way...how many do get out of prison and return to a normal sane and healthy life, especially in Thailand?

[jayjayjayjay]

Should I help them?

The bail surety alone is over 200K Baht.

Feelings?

Your a business owner, I think you know the answer already

[backflip]

Why do refer to THEM as stupid? You lent them money, they refused to pay it back, they get involved with sellings drugs, they get caught, they want to borrow more money from you...and you feel guilty that you haven't? I think they're acting pretty smart - they have you to support their lifestyle.

[soundman]

Why do refer to THEM as stupid? You lent them money, they refused to pay it back, they get involved with sellings drugs, they get caught, they want to borrow more money from you...and you feel guilty that you haven't? I think they're acting pretty smart - they have you to support their lifestyle.

Haha,

I totally disagree with your comment.

I going to suggest that you have this the wrong way around. To do something a little dodgy & not get caught is probably for them "pretty smart". To do something illegal & get caught is pretty bloo&y stupid.

All monies loaned are legitimate loans with contracts signed to be paid back irrespective of whether they work for me or somebody else. And even though they have been caught & are going to go to jaol, their guarantur will have to pay my money back.

See it how you want. Thats the wat I see it.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[kmart]

I make it a policy in my business to offer financial help to staff members.

This means that if a staff member has been with our business for a certain period of time he becomes eligible to borrow money from the business. We treat this transaction as any financial institution would. They sign a contract that agrees to terms of repayment, interest, and surety.

If they leave the business for any reason the terms of the loan do not change.

Staff who have borrowed money do leave. They do not always go to other jobs. Their payments fall behind. We send the debt collectors after them. (usually a member of the local police force who keeps 30% of the received monies for his after hours work)

So I had two staff who left, fell behind in their payments, and had the police arrive to collect.

These two genius's thought they could raise the money owed by, you guessed it, selling drugs. Today the police busted them, with traficable qty's of yaba. They will probably spend 2 - 5 years in prison.

They have both called my office for assistance.

When working for me they were both reasonable staff members with good de-meanors. (They are both in their late teens, early twenties)

Should I help them?

The bail surety alone is over 200K Baht.

Feelings?

Soundman.

Soundman, please accept my comments are not an attempt to flame, but I question your man management skills.

You recently posted another piece about how your staff were ripping you off etc etc, now this thread, again on ways you were getting ripped off financially.

You are obviously a well meaning and kind hearted person, but unfortunately, here in Asia 98% of your staff will see you as a patsy and use you as so !.

In my 25 years working throughout Asia, I think I could count on one hand the staff I met who could budget their salary. Believe me a lot of staff members are down to their last baht long before pay day gets around again.

Your generosity is likely seen by your staff as a weakeness and guaranteed you will be exploited.

As for these two idioits who have been caught drug dealing stay away, you gave them your help and trust and they <deleted> on you. Learn your lessons fast or you will be the next asking to borrow money !

My employment situation is quite similar to soundman's, so I know where he is coming from with this thread. Thai family-based firms are just like real families, and sometimes the cold, hard, logical laws of business don't apply here.

However, once employees leave (sometimes with inside info they can sell to competitors, and usually owing money) they also leave the family, and all deals are off. I would urge you to write off the amount owed, and not do anything to help these people. Drugs here are a very dangerous subject here, and they knew the penalties before deciding to sell them. - As opposed to maybe having a little bit of actual discipline and working / saving to pay off their debts....? Nah.

[soundman]

I make it a policy in my business to offer financial help to staff members.

This means that if a staff member has been with our business for a certain period of time he becomes eligible to borrow money from the business. We treat this transaction as any financial institution would. They sign a contract that agrees to terms of repayment, interest, and surety.

If they leave the business for any reason the terms of the loan do not change.

Staff who have borrowed money do leave. They do not always go to other jobs. Their payments fall behind. We send the debt collectors after them. (usually a member of the local police force who keeps 30% of the received monies for his after hours work)

So I had two staff who left, fell behind in their payments, and had the police arrive to collect.

These two genius's thought they could raise the money owed by, you guessed it, selling drugs. Today the police busted them, with traficable qty's of yaba. They will probably spend 2 - 5 years in prison.

They have both called my office for assistance.

When working for me they were both reasonable staff members with good de-meanors. (They are both in their late teens, early twenties)

Should I help them?

The bail surety alone is over 200K Baht.

Feelings?

Soundman.

Soundman, please accept my comments are not an attempt to flame, but I question your man management skills.

You recently posted another piece about how your staff were ripping you off etc etc, now this thread, again on ways you were getting ripped off financially.

You are obviously a well meaning and kind hearted person, but unfortunately, here in Asia 98% of your staff will see you as a patsy and use you as so !.

In my 25 years working throughout Asia, I think I could count on one hand the staff I met who could budget their salary. Believe me a lot of staff members are down to their last baht long before pay day gets around again.

Your generosity is likely seen by your staff as a weakeness and guaranteed you will be exploited.

As for these two idioits who have been caught drug dealing stay away, you gave them your help and trust and they <deleted> on you. Learn your lessons fast or you will be the next asking to borrow money !

My employment situation is quite similar to soundman's, so I know where he is coming from with this thread. Thai family-based firms are just like real families, and sometimes the cold, hard, logical laws of business don't apply here.

However, once employees leave (sometimes with inside info they can sell to competitors, and usually owing money) they also leave the family, and all deals are off. I would urge you to write off the amount owed, and not do anything to help these people. Drugs here are a very dangerous subject here, and they knew the penalties before deciding to sell them. - As opposed to maybe having a little bit of actual discipline and working / saving to pay off their debts....? Nah.

Someone who actually has seen & probably had to put up with same crap I have to. You are totally right, in family run business you see things happen in thailand that you would never contemplate in the west.

Could spend a day or ten talking on this subject.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[bino]

Soundman- it sounds like your loan policy is overly generous.

My company is also willing to make loans to employees, but never more than we can recover from a final paycheck... IE one month's salary. The employee understands that the payments will be deducted directly from their gross pay every month, and if their employment with us ends, the balance is due and payable from their final salary.

If they are needing to borrow more, I am always willing to write a glowing reference letter that they can take to the bank or anywhere else and borrow from them.

[soundman]

Soundman- it sounds like your loan policy is overly generous.

My company is also willing to make loans to employees, but never more than we can recover from a final paycheck... IE one month's salary. The employee understands that the payments will be deducted directly from their gross pay every month, and if their employment with us ends, the balance is due and payable from their final salary.

If they are needing to borrow more, I am always willing to write a glowing reference letter that they can take to the bank or anywhere else and borrow from them.

A policy like that makes sense, we used to employ it a few years ago, and we would just write it down on their time card as to what they had actually borrowed. Never more than a months salary...

But then staff would come to make their case to you, borrow a few thousand baht, & leave the next day, with out actually having earn't enough for you to deduct it from their final pay. One off case who cares? multiply it by 10 or more and its suddenly a lot of money.

That,s why we have gone down the path of official contracts, interest & guarantors - all enforcable in court. Since doing this we have had very few bad debts - especially in comparisson with the previous system.

If you want to see the loan contract - it is a very simple form book - available from most stationary stores. Send your secretary to buy one. Worth a look even if you don't go for the idea.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[lingnoi34]

I just looked at Gor's story and must say that it is quite interesting at the least.

Everybody should check it out!

LN