Can a foreigner register his or her Thai will at a local amphur?

[bronzedude]

I just had a Thai will completed by a Pattaya law firm. It shows a paragraph in English and the directly below the same paragraph transcribed in Thai. I heard from a friend that only Thai people can register their wills at the local amphur. Is this true? Or is it even necessary to register the will? 

[Langsuan Man]

Anyone can register a Will at the Amphur.

 

Bamlamung used to not only register the will but would store it for you in their vault.  Became so popular with expats,  who don't trust Thai lawyers,  they had to stop offering the storage option but will still register it in their book and give you a receipt showing the date and the page number where it is recorded

 

I am concerned about how the law firm did your will , since the regulations state specifically that the will must be in Thai, a foreign language translation is acceptable but in the case of any disputes, the Thai version only will be legal accepted.  Mine was done on two pages, one English translated by a registered translator, the other in Thai.  Have never heard of a will translated in paragraphs as you describe 

 

It is not necessary to register the Will but if you want to protect your heirs, it is best practice.  Especially,  if the law firm want's to do you a favor and "store" the Will for you  

[bronzedude]

2 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Anyone can register a Will at the Amphur.

 

Bamlamung used to not only register the will but would store it for you in their vault.  Became so popular with expats,  who don't trust Thai lawyers,  they had to stop offering the storage option but will still register it in their book and give you a receipt showing the date and the page number where it is recorded

 

I am concerned about how the law firm did your will , since the regulations state specifically that the will must be in Thai, a foreign language translation is acceptable but in the case of any disputes, the Thai version only will be legal accepted.  Mine was done on two pages, one English translated by a registered translator, the other in Thai.  Have never heard of a will translated in paragraphs as you describe 

 

It is not necessary to register the Will but if you want to protect your heirs, it is best practice.  Especially,  if the law firm want's to do you a favor and "store" the Will for you  

 

2 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Anyone can register a Will at the Amphur.

 

Bamlamung used to not only register the will but would store it for you in their vault.  Became so popular with expats,  who don't trust Thai lawyers,  they had to stop offering the storage option but will still register it in their book and give you a receipt showing the date and the page number where it is recorded

 

I am concerned about how the law firm did your will , since the regulations state specifically that the will must be in Thai, a foreign language translation is acceptable but in the case of any disputes, the Thai version only will be legal accepted.  Mine was done on two pages, one English translated by a registered translator, the other in Thai.  Have never heard of a will translated in paragraphs as you describe 

 

It is not necessary to register the Will but if you want to protect your heirs, it is best practice.  Especially,  if the law firm want's to do you a favor and "store" the Will for you  

Thank you for the response. I'll go to Banglamung and register the will. This will is actually the second Thai will I had made. The first one was 2 years ago when my now wife was my then girlfriend. The first will was done exactly the same way with a paragraph in English and a subsequent paragraph with the Thai translation. Actually, I like it because it's easy to follow for both my wife and myself.

[JimGant]

Just to be clear, when the Amphur registers your Will, to ensure that no later forgery of said registered Will is made, the registered Will will have Amphur witness signatures and probably an Amphur chop of some sort, one that coincides with the info in the registration book. I'm not hundred percent sure about the chop -- but I am about the witnesses (at least at the Doi Saket Amphur). Otherwise, the registration would be a worthless protection against a later forgery.

[Sheryl]

Is there any practical advantage to registering an already signed & notarized will at Ampur other than forgery/tampering prevention?

 

Mine was drawn up by Thai lawyer and notarized copies are with my Executors, as well as filed away in my home

I am not concerned re forgery or tampering, no one atound who would remotely know how to do such a thing or want to.

 

 

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[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I believe the supposed purpose of registering a Thai will at the amphur is to either avoid or speed the Thai probate process....

 

As for actually accomplishing that, a few years ago, the staff at my local khet in BKK told me and my wife that they could do that for us... Then when we went back a year later, the wills staff had changed and they then said they could NOT, because my wife's tabien ban was/is not for the BKK address where we're living.

 

YMMV....  Different offices seem to have different policies on foreigners registering wills...not surprisingly....

[CharlieH]

A report post and a response to it have been removed.

 

11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people or any other group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.
 

[CharlieH]

12 minutes ago, Benroon said:

What is YMMV ?

We discourage the use of abbreviations, I believe this is "Your mileage may vary"

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In the past, in some places, the amphur staff working in the office would agree to serve as witnesses for a small tip... But again, practice varies place to place. Best to check.

 

The witness isn't reading or having to understand what's in the will. Nor do the witnesses have to be related in any particular way to the filer. Just witnessing you're filing the will with the amphur in a sealed envelope.

Edited April 5, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Sheryl]

I believe the supposed purpose of registering a Thai will at the amphur is to either avoid or speed the Thai probate process....
 
As for actually accomplishing that, a few years ago, the staff at my local khet in BKK told me and my wife that they could do that for us... Then when we went back a year later, the wills staff had changed and they then said they could NOT, because my wife's tabien ban was/is not for the BKK address where we're living.
 
YMMV....  Different offices seem to have different policies on foreigners registering wills...not surprisingly....

It definitely does not avoid probate. Apparently nothing does.

Not sure how it could speed things up either....?

Presumably main advantage is to assure safe storage? Which if one has reliable Executor(s) who live abroad and no one likely to challenge the will may not be an issue


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[Sheryl]

What happens if a witness (or both) refuse to sign when the time comes to open the will?
Slightly off-topic but would appreciate any input

The witnesses sign when the will is filed by you, not when it is opened.

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[TallGuyJohninBKK]

42 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It definitely does not avoid probate. Apparently nothing does.

Not sure how it could speed things up either....?

 

Sheryl, I've been following this subject for a long time, and have saved prior clips and reports on same. And there definitely have been indications both from some Thai law firms and from individuals such as Nancy L that a properly executed Thai amphur will CAN and DID avoid probate, contrary to what you post above.

 

 

And, on the legal front, there seem to be varying opinions....

 

 

 

[JimGant]

52 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It definitely does not avoid probate. Apparently nothing does.

Oh boy. This has been the sixty-four dollar question for years on all these Will forums. We've had several reps from Thai law firms, and even, at one time, a separate TV law sub-forum, all of which have maintained that probate is a requirement. And, be prepared to spend 50,000 baht, and wait a quarter of a year for results. Sadly, we've had no reports, at least that I've seen, refuting the requirement for probate with actual circumstances.

 

But what about the following statements?:

 

Quote

 ... settlement of assets in Thailand through a Thai Last Will and Testament is more convenient and practical. For one, Thai law does not require probate of Last Will and Testaments before it can be enforced. Second, inheritance tax is not levied in Thailand.

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/lastwill-testament.php

Quote

Execution of the Will
There are no probate proceedings in Thailand. An executor is normally named in a will and his task is to notify the beneficiaries in the will, and then distribute the estate. Court approval is necessary only where the beneficiaries contest the will. There is not even a fixed date for the notification. A “reasonable time” is all that is required.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/how-to-draft-a-thai-will-7751

 

Guess I'll have to wait 'til I croak for my wife/executor/beneficiary to find out...

 

But, back to Sheryl's question: What, if any, advantage is there to have an Amphur chop on your already big law firm, notarized Will?

 

Maybe none... But maybe that red meatball official Amphur stamp on your Will sidesteps more probate roadblocks than a fancy signature block from a fathead law firm. Especially if you live in a small community, where, I suspect, non probated Amphur Wills are the norm (and small town bank managers ignore probate, especially if they've been briefed on the quoted info, above).

 

And, some of us have prepared our own Wills, in correct format, and witnessed by our gardner and maid -- with Thai ID included, of course. By itself, not too impressive. But, go to the Amphur, and get it blessed with a red meatball. Yeah, good to go -- maybe.

 

And my self-prepared Will also includes cremation and disposal instructions, and living will provisions, such as please hold the feeding tube, and other life support items. These provisions are allowed to be included in your basic Will. But, hey, the no feeding tube provision ain't going through probate. What's the doctor to do? I suspect that he certainly would react with more certainty should he see the red meatball on the Will.

 

Anyway, I've yet to do this with the Amphur. And, just maybe, my Amphur will balk -- after all, Amphur Wills supposedly are boiler plates filled out at the Amphur, read back to you, the testator, then witnessed, stamped, and recorded. To bring in my own already prepared Will, complete with living will instructions, might tip the balance. We'll see.

[Sheryl]

I would definitely register a DIY will.

Re this probate business....I have asked my bank several times and been told they will not release monies to a beneficiary without a formal court order.

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[ThaiBunny]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Re this probate business....I have asked my bank several times and been told they will not release monies to a beneficiary without a formal court order.

Having been an executor of a foreigner's Will in Thailand I can say that my experience was that Thai banks freeze the account as soon as they are advised officially of the death.  Once probate has been granted (and after 3+ months) they then transfer the money to the executor's bank account, for distribution to the beneficiaries.  AFAIK it would be highly irregular for the bank to distribute direct to the beneficiaries as they are not the executor and they have no knowledge of the Will unless the Executor has told them

[JimGant]

8 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Re this probate business....I have asked my bank several times and been told they will not release monies to a beneficiary without a formal court order.

Must be a big city bank branch. Out here, in the sticks, our Bangkok Bank branch manager has advised the wife 'not to worry,' my account, solely in my name for Immigration reasons, will not encounter problems when I croak. Nothing out of the ordinary, when the spouse is the sole beneficiary (although nothing was mentioned about having to show a notarized/Amphur stamped Will). Especially true with our joint account, as some reports have banks holding up release to the surviving joint account holder. Some banks are  running scared of the lawyer mafia.

1 minute ago, ThaiBunny said:

AFAIK it would be highly irregular for the bank to distribute direct to the beneficiaries as they are not the executor and they have no knowledge of the Will unless the Executor has told them

Yeah, but when the sole beneficiary is the executor, you think that beneficiary should pay some shark lawyer 50k to get what's obviously hers?

[JimGant]

13 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Having been an executor of a foreigner's Will in Thailand I can say that my experience was that Thai banks freeze the account as soon as they are advised officially of the death. 

When usually is that? Probably plenty of time for the sole beneficiary/executor to clean out the account(s). What? Nobody files a complaint. Good-to-go, right? I believe, in the States, they call that "Absence of Malice."

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

34 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I would definitely register a DIY will.

Re this probate business....I have asked my bank several times and been told they will not release monies to a beneficiary without a formal court order.

 

Sheryl, as best as I can tell through looking at this over a long period of time, it appears to be another of the typical Thai "some will, some won't" scenarios. All depends on the bank and location and who's working that day.

 

Obviously, what you did makes sense -- contacting the branch manager at the bank holding the deposit, and asking what they'll require. Of course, between the time you do that and the time an executor comes calling, there probably will be a different manager and who knows what the answer will be.

 

As I see it, no harm in going thru the Amphur will process, and if that works for the bank, then that's great and avoids probate and makes the whole process easier. And, if that does NOT work for the bank, you still have a stamped, official Thai will to take thru the probate process, a will that's probably more official than the do it yourself at home or off the bookstore shelf form varieties.

 

[JimGant]

55 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I would definitely register a DIY will

We discourage the use of abbreviations, I believe this is "Do It Yourself."  ????

[scorecard]

6 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Anyone can register a Will at the Amphur.

 

Bamlamung used to not only register the will but would store it for you in their vault.  Became so popular with expats,  who don't trust Thai lawyers,  they had to stop offering the storage option but will still register it in their book and give you a receipt showing the date and the page number where it is recorded

 

I am concerned about how the law firm did your will , since the regulations state specifically that the will must be in Thai, a foreign language translation is acceptable but in the case of any disputes, the Thai version only will be legal accepted.  Mine was done on two pages, one English translated by a registered translator, the other in Thai.  Have never heard of a will translated in paragraphs as you describe 

 

It is not necessary to register the Will but if you want to protect your heirs, it is best practice.  Especially,  if the law firm want's to do you a favor and "store" the Will for you  

Mine is written :

 

- All headings in Thai with next line under in English

- Same for all paragraphs, Thai then immediately under that paragraph in English.

[Antonymous]

I would never trust an Amphur office again after they LOST my Last Will and Testament that I (actually my Thai lawyer with me present) had lodged with them (with a receipt) a few years before. I only found out when I went to retrieve it and replace with a new one. I was dumbfounded when after an hour waiting while they searched they apologised and said something about an office clean out...

 

So what if I had died and the executor/beneficiaries came to get it? Sorry, no hab.

 

Since that fiasco I have given a sealed envelope containing my signed and witnessed Will to my chosen Thai executor who keeps it in a safe and I have informed my beneficiaries of that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oobar]

4 hours ago, bronzedude said:

The first will was done exactly the same way with a paragraph in English and a subsequent paragraph with the Thai translation. Actually, I like it because it's easy to follow for both my wife and myself. 

Many legal documents in Thailand are done this way, as are my 30/60 year lease on 2 rai of land and right of superficies.

[justin case]

ask a lawyer... 

 

unless you speak, read & write perfect thai

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

I would definitely register a DIY will.

Re this probate business....I have asked my bank several times and been told they will not release monies to a beneficiary without a formal court order.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

My Thai son's will and my will were written by an old truste family friend, qualified lawyer, my son took them to the amphur office and asked for an opinion from the officer in charge of writing wills at the amphur office (many Thais go to their amphur office and an officer will advise how to write the will) . My son's request was for this officer to look at the wills and make a comment whether the wills were structured properly etc.

 

The officer (who had commented on the farang family name for my son and for me) then made several comments which my son knew were totally not correct. e.g. when Thai husband dies the law says he must give his mother in law a very large amount of money.  This is not true. And several more comments which are not true. Son also established that the lady officer making these comments had no training whatever in making wills.  

 

Son did however register the wills but left no copies at the Amphur office. 

 

 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

When usually is that? Probably plenty of time for the sole beneficiary/executor to clean out the account(s). What? Nobody files a complaint. Good-to-go, right? I believe, in the States, they call that "Absence of Malice."

 Actually this point has been discussed on TV many times before.

 

It seems that if you ask 20 bank managers about this matter you will get 20 different answers.

 

E,g, We asked our local bank manager (big branch in Chiang Mai) city what happens with 2 joint account son and myself) either party can sign. Manager said no problem there is still 1 person alive and only needs one signature, so just keep making withdrawals, he also advised that it's not necessary for the surviving account holder to tell the bank that the other party has died.

 

Again, ask several bank managers re this specific scenario and get several different answers. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by scorecard

[scorecard]

6 hours ago, JimGant said:

Oh boy. This has been the sixty-four dollar question for years on all these Will forums. We've had several reps from Thai law firms, and even, at one time, a separate TV law sub-forum, all of which have maintained that probate is a requirement. And, be prepared to spend 50,000 baht, and wait a quarter of a year for results. Sadly, we've had no reports, at least that I've seen, refuting the requirement for probate with actual circumstances.

 

But what about the following statements?:

 

 

Guess I'll have to wait 'til I croak for my wife/executor/beneficiary to find out...

 

But, back to Sheryl's question: What, if any, advantage is there to have an Amphur chop on your already big law firm, notarized Will?

 

Maybe none... But maybe that red meatball official Amphur stamp on your Will sidesteps more probate roadblocks than a fancy signature block from a fathead law firm. Especially if you live in a small community, where, I suspect, non probated Amphur Wills are the norm (and small town bank managers ignore probate, especially if they've been briefed on the quoted info, above).

 

And, some of us have prepared our own Wills, in correct format, and witnessed by our gardner and maid -- with Thai ID included, of course. By itself, not too impressive. But, go to the Amphur, and get it blessed with a red meatball. Yeah, good to go -- maybe.

 

And my self-prepared Will also includes cremation and disposal instructions, and living will provisions, such as please hold the feeding tube, and other life support items. These provisions are allowed to be included in your basic Will. But, hey, the no feeding tube provision ain't going through probate. What's the doctor to do? I suspect that he certainly would react with more certainty should he see the red meatball on the Will.

 

Anyway, I've yet to do this with the Amphur. And, just maybe, my Amphur will balk -- after all, Amphur Wills supposedly are boiler plates filled out at the Amphur, read back to you, the testator, then witnessed, stamped, and recorded. To bring in my own already prepared Will, complete with living will instructions, might tip the balance. We'll see.

Just wondering how a law firm / any firm is able to register the business name 'Thai Embassy'?

[Langsuan Man]

Why have a Will registered with the amphur ?

 

To keep the lawyer who prepared it from changing it .  And don't think that having it notarized is any protection.  Yes, they can't change that Will but they can write a whole new one and just date it after the original Will was signed.  And in case you forgot, you are not going to be here to dispute that

 

There was a post here at TV, a few years back from Phuket, that reported on an older British expat who had told all his friends that when he died his Will directed that all his assets be given to a local elementary school since he no longer had any relatives in "Blighty" .  After the funeral the friends approached the lawyer who claimed that the deceased died intestate (without a will) so the school got nothing and the lawyer got everything 

 

Which of course begs the question of why any lawyer would allow a client to die without a Will ?

 

Isn't it worth the 20 baht fee to be sure !

[Sheryl]

Why have a Will registered with the amphur ?
 
To keep the lawyer who prepared it from changing it .  And don't think that having it notarized is any protection.  Yes, they can't change that Will but they can write a whole new one and just date it after the original Will was signed.  And in case you forgot, you are not going to be here to dispute that
 
There was a post here at TV, a few years back from Phuket, that reported on an older British expat who had told all his friends that when he died his Will directed that all his assets be given to a local elementary school since he no longer had any relatives in "Blighty" .  After the funeral the friends approached the lawyer who claimed that the deceased died intestate (without a will) so the school got nothing and the lawyer got everything 
 
Which of course begs the question of why any lawyer would allow a client to die without a Will ?
 
Isn't it worth the 20 baht fee to be sure !

You do not have to let the lawyer store the will (and I indeed don't recommend that in Thailand).

I didn't. Mine is with neither Ampur nor Lawyer it is with the Executors. And a copy with me.

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[JimGant]

7 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

After the funeral the friends approached the lawyer who claimed that the deceased died intestate (without a will) so the school got nothing and the lawyer got everything 

You've mentioned this is another thread, and it still doesn't make any sense..... The deceased died intestate -- so his assets were divided up amongst his statutory heirs. So, the lawyer was who: wife, mother, grandmother, brother.....?

[Langsuan Man]

15 hours ago, JimGant said:

You've mentioned this is another thread, and it still doesn't make any sense..... The deceased died intestate -- so his assets were divided up amongst his statutory heirs. So, the lawyer was who: wife, mother, grandmother, brother.....?

And how,  without a Will,  is anyone in Thailand supposed to know who those statutory heirs are ? 

 

A lawyer could burn through a whole estate getting that information 

 

But more importantly, a Will is for emergencies, not for estate planning

Edited April 7, 2019 by Langsuan Man