Do you believe in God and why

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, Tayida said:

I fear that the character of Christ has been greatly overrated: his figure has been magnified over time, exaggerated by legend

Excuse me, but how do you know that ? Were you there with him ?

There are many things we don't know about the life of Jesus, there are a zillion theories,  for example about his journeys to India, where is regarded as an incarnation of Vishnu, the force of love and cohesion. 

Personally, i think nowadays Jesus is underrated, and if you stay around I'll explain why i think so.

[Hummin]

6 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Come to think of it @Hummin , I can't even ask you questions because you won't even answer them.  You'll give me some ridonkulous excuse for your own failure to answer questions and even go so far to disingenuously turn the tables to blame me for your refusal.

So if I were to ask you what thoughts, emotions and imagination are, what their purpose is, and why we have them you'd come back to me with this:

"Why I do not answer all your questions, is because maybe you need to answer those questions for yourself, not me to give you those answers."

The truth is, Hummin, you don't answer questions because you have no answers.

You make communication truly 

I have to salute you for your effort, I can not sum up every question I have ignored on this fora, and the simple reason is as you mention, there is impossible to answer, or do not have time, or I have made my self awareness clear in so many previous posts that the questions should not be necessary to answer. I believe I have answered most of your questions. 

 

What is thoughts, emotions and imagination? I would put them in a different order, Emotions - thoughts - imagination and you know this is not done in a short answer, 

 

Do we feel before we think? Do we imagine after emotions, or do the imagination create feelings? How many combinations is it combined with our visuals and hearing as our inner self both mentally and our physics. You asking the ultimate question depending on your belief and your teaching, and there is no good answers really except we are a product of continuous stimuli which brings us back to the biggest question of all, where we come from, why are we, and what is the meaning. 

 

 

[Tayida]

18 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

.....underrated......

I think it is overrated both historically and otherwise: thinking that there is a God, a superior being to whom we can turn when situations are bigger than us, is a human need.

Thinking that after the earthly life there is another life is a human need, a consolation that many of the bereaved feel the need to continue to move forward.

So as much as I want to rail against any type of religion and especially against those who exploit them, it cannot be denied that human beings feel a need for spirituality.

It is the economy that moves the world, wars have always been waged for economic reasons even if disguised under religion and simple people believe in it.

I would like to see Christ at work because he was a great communicator, I believe a great philosopher and perhaps I like his ideas at first glance more than those preached by someone else.

That then on balance, they turned out to be harmful ideas, is not all his fault I think.

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

What about the feeling of ecstasy? Do you think it's created by thought? 

Or what about fear in the face of a sudden danger? 

 

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Tayida said:

That then on balance, they turned out to be harmful ideas, is not all his fault I think.

As you said in your post, war are waged for economical reasons, and religion has often been used as an excuse, so to blame Jesus for the bad deeds of the crusaders is not correct. 

However, you see quite determined in seeing just faults in religion, so, without offence, I'll not try to change your mind.

Appreciate your contribution though,  and agree with some of your ideas, if not most.

[Tayida]

18 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

.....so to blame Jesus for the bad deeds of the crusaders is not correct....

Personally I give the figure of Christ (whether this was his name, whether or not he was a son of God, whether he was one or three different ones) for having transmitted incredibly new, surprising and revolutionary ideas about relationships between people, the consideration that everyone should have for others, the importance of their actions and forgiveness, especially in a West that knew little about these things .. just as I recognize the importance of Darwin with regard to studies on the origin of species.

And just as I do not hold Darwin or other evolutionary scientists or anthropologists guilty of the misleading and ignoble use that the Nazis made of their words, I certainly cannot blame Jesus for the crusades or any other of the many filth, still today, perpetrated under the sign of the cross.

I condemn those who have manipulated his words for their own gain.

[mauGR1]

28 minutes ago, Tayida said:

Personally I give the figure of Christ (whether this was his name, whether or not he was a son of God, whether he was one or three different ones) for having transmitted incredibly new, surprising and revolutionary ideas about relationships between people, the consideration that everyone should have for others, the importance of their actions and forgiveness, especially in a West that knew little about these things

I agree, and not a little feat indeed. 

Humanism would not probably exist without Jesus, and others who were unjustly persecuted, so, again, i don't think that he's overrated. 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by mauGR1

[Tippaporn]

Well spoken.
 

 

[Hummin]

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Well spoken.
 

 

I guess Jesus would have been very much alike him. 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/10/2023 at 5:36 PM, Tippaporn said:

When life sucks then it happens for only one reason.  And one reason only.  One believes that life sucks.  You've literally hypnotised yourself into believing it.  As long as you hold, or entertain, or focus on that statement, which comes from the inside, you will never be able to change it's outer effects.  It's a self-perpetuating circle of hell.

"Life sucks" is an idea.  The idea comes from the inside.  Your thoughts.  Your create your outer reality using thoughts, e.g. ideas, beliefs.  Your belief, "life sucks," is then reflected outward as your experience.  Your experience of "life sucks" then reaffirms and reinforces your belief that "life sucks."  Which causes you to repeat what you're experiencing.  "Life sucks."  The "life sucks" then produces more experience of "life sucks."  Again the belief that "life sucks" is reaffirmed and reinforced.  Ad infinitum.

"Life is wonderful" is a belief that works just the same as "life sucks."  The evidence of the truth that "life is wonderful" is all around you right now.  But the belief that "life sucks" prevents you from seeing that "life is wonderful because "life sucks," since that is what you've been consistently creating, seems R-E-A-L and beyond question.

You are in a circle of hell because you don't understand what you're doing.  No one has ever taught you.  And you haven't figured it out for yourself yet.

The way out is easier than you think.

Sorry, but while you are welcome to your beliefs, I don't agree with you. Does a 2 year old create the brain tumour that kills him slowly and in a great deal of pain?

 

If I am in a "circle of hell" it's because of mistakes I made in my life that brought me to it, not because I created it ( unless I am really living in the Matrix, in which case I did ).

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/10/2023 at 5:36 PM, Tippaporn said:

When life sucks then it happens for only one reason.  And one reason only.  One believes that life sucks.  You've literally hypnotised yourself into believing it.  As long as you hold, or entertain, or focus on that statement, which comes from the inside, you will never be able to change it's outer effects.  It's a self-perpetuating circle of hell.

"Life sucks" is an idea.  The idea comes from the inside.  Your thoughts.  Your create your outer reality using thoughts, e.g. ideas, beliefs.  Your belief, "life sucks," is then reflected outward as your experience.  Your experience of "life sucks" then reaffirms and reinforces your belief that "life sucks."  Which causes you to repeat what you're experiencing.  "Life sucks."  The "life sucks" then produces more experience of "life sucks."  Again the belief that "life sucks" is reaffirmed and reinforced.  Ad infinitum.

"Life is wonderful" is a belief that works just the same as "life sucks."  The evidence of the truth that "life is wonderful" is all around you right now.  But the belief that "life sucks" prevents you from seeing that "life is wonderful because "life sucks," since that is what you've been consistently creating, seems R-E-A-L and beyond question.

You are in a circle of hell because you don't understand what you're doing.  No one has ever taught you.  And you haven't figured it out for yourself yet.

The way out is easier than you think.

Sorry, but while you are welcome to your beliefs, I don't agree with you. Does a 2 year old create the brain tumour that kills him slowly and in a great deal of pain?

 

If I am in a "circle of hell" it's because of mistakes I made in my life that brought me to it, not because I created it ( unless I am really living in the Matrix, in which case I did ).

[Sunmaster]

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:21 AM, Sunmaster said:

Or what about fear in the face of a sudden danger? 

 

I think fear and ecstasy are two unrelated things. Fear is a genetic safety response, as part of the fight or flight reaction to a threat.

I can see that there may not be much obvious difference, as both are a result of a chemical release in the body, but ecstasy is not necessary to preserve our life from danger or to ensure the survival of the species, though it was nice of God to include it in our genetic programming.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:21 PM, Tayida said:

I would like to see Christ at work because he was a great communicator, I believe a great philosopher and perhaps I like his ideas at first glance more than those preached by someone else.

That then on balance, they turned out to be harmful ideas, is not all his fault I think.

None of the things preached by the Christ are harmful, but bad men have twisted them to serve their evil purposes.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:06 PM, Hummin said:

You asking the ultimate question depending on your belief and your teaching, and there is no good answers really except we are a product of continuous stimuli which brings us back to the biggest question of all, where we come from, why are we, and what is the meaning. 

Sorry, but I think to ask why we are here is rather pointless. Unless one believes that we are special, and were specifically created, one would have to accept that we are just another species that evolved from a common ancestor with the apes, and further back with other mammals.

I don't know if our superior brain was intended or an accident, but IMO we have not been good for planet earth.

[Sunmaster]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think fear and ecstasy are two unrelated things. Fear is a genetic safety response, as part of the fight or flight reaction to a threat.

I can see that there may not be much obvious difference, as both are a result of a chemical release in the body, but ecstasy is not necessary to preserve our life from danger or to ensure the survival of the species, though it was nice of God to include it in our genetic programming.

The question I was asking myself was "If emotions are all a product of thoughts, what about ecstasy and (sudden) fear?"
They are both defined as emotions, but I can't see how they would be produced by thought. 

Maybe most emotions are produced by thoughts (thought>emotion), but maybe some come before thoughts (emotion>thought).

Anyway, still trying to make sense of this.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Sunmaster

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/10/2023 at 8:04 PM, Hummin said:

Depression have many grades, and if you had severe depression you would only manage to to basic things, get out of bed to go toilet only when you really have to. Not go shopping before everything possible  in house is eaten, no energy, not even manage to kill your self, as few examples.  I do not believe pills will even help at this state but it can be a start doing something. 

 

 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I never had that bad depression. Mainly just very unhappy and not feeling any hope for my life.

I had a job that paid reasonably well and wasn't physically hard, but as with all public service jobs I did the managers were <deleted>.

So it was really just a feeling of hopelessness and having given up on my life. That changed when I retired and moved to Thailand, got married.

Even when the marriage failed, I was still livin' in LOS, and lovin' it. It's only since returning to home country that I have once again lost hope and feeling that my life is pointless.

 

 

Never mind, it's not for too long and I'm looking forwards to my next and greatest adventure.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

The question I was asking myself was "If emotions are all a product of thoughts, what about ecstasy and (sudden) fear?"
They are both defined as emotions, but I can't see how they would be produced by thought. 

Maybe most emotions are produced by thoughts (thought>emotion), but maybe some come before thoughts (emotion>thought).

Anyway, still trying to make sense of this.

 

Ah, my wifi connection is <deleted> and keeps going down so I'm missing out on reading everything, so I misunderstood.

 

However, our emotions are as a result of chemicals that are released in response to a stimuli, whether mental or physical, so in some sense automatic, though we may like to think otherwise.

 

So, fear is a spontaneous reaction to a perceived threat, while ecstasy  is a response to pleasurable stimuli, but IMO is not a spontaneous reaction.

 

Just think of the body as a hive of chemical reactions in response to all the stimuli that our bodies are receiving every second we are alive.

 

Unfortunately, some people are unable to generate the required chemicals to be a good person, which means they can be psychopaths, etc.

 

Of course it's way more complicated than my simplistic answer, so no need for the "experts" to pick it apart.

 

It's too frustrating to be on line at the moment, so if I manage to post this it'll be my last for now.

 

[Tayida]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

None of the things preached by the Christ are harmful, but bad men have twisted them to serve their evil purposes.

Why did God, who is Love, tolerate, and sometimes endorse, so much violence in the Old Testament? One of the main criticisms leveled at Islam is that the Koran clearly instigates and encourages violence... Example: Sura Al-Imran, verse 127 «The Lord will make you overcome, and this is to kill and humiliate the unbelievers, who will thus be losers in this life and in the hereafter"... but the bible also contains similar passages... (I prefer not to report extrapolated sentences without the relative context, but you will agree with me that there are very similar sentences... ).

So, I ask: if he really was as good as they say, why did He endorse that kind of violence?

[Sunmaster]

14 minutes ago, Tayida said:

Why did God, who is Love, tolerate, and sometimes endorse, so much violence in the Old Testament? One of the main criticisms leveled at Islam is that the Koran clearly instigates and encourages violence... Example: Sura Al-Imran, verse 127 «The Lord will make you overcome, and this is to kill and humiliate the unbelievers, who will thus be losers in this life and in the hereafter"... but the bible also contains similar passages... (I prefer not to report extrapolated sentences without the relative context, but you will agree with me that there are very similar sentences... ).

So, I ask: if he really was as good as they say, why did He endorse that kind of violence?

Easy.
God is God.
The Bible, the Quran, any religious doctrine....were written by men. 

2 very different things.

 

Even if those texts were written by men under the influence of divine inspiration, and I believe this to be so in part, even then the info received had to go through the unique filter of the person writing it down, thus distorting the original message.

Not to mention all subsequent revisions throughout history that even further distorted the message.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Sunmaster

[Hummin]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think fear and ecstasy are two unrelated things. Fear is a genetic safety response, as part of the fight or flight reaction to a threat.

I can see that there may not be much obvious difference, as both are a result of a chemical release in the body, but ecstasy is not necessary to preserve our life from danger or to ensure the survival of the species, though it was nice of God to include it in our genetic programming.

As an long time extreme sport athlete They both serve each other in combinations before, during and after. 

[Hummin]

3 hours ago, Tayida said:

Why did God, who is Love, tolerate, and sometimes endorse, so much violence in the Old Testament? One of the main criticisms leveled at Islam is that the Koran clearly instigates and encourages violence... Example: Sura Al-Imran, verse 127 «The Lord will make you overcome, and this is to kill and humiliate the unbelievers, who will thus be losers in this life and in the hereafter"... but the bible also contains similar passages... (I prefer not to report extrapolated sentences without the relative context, but you will agree with me that there are very similar sentences... ).

So, I ask: if he really was as good as they say, why did He endorse that kind of violence?

It is a family book first of all, then a tribe, and eventually it evolved in to a political  tool. Inspiration have one source, but from there to now, it is a book written by men. All womens chapters is excluded. 

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, Hummin said:

As an long time extreme sport athlete They both serve each other in combinations before, during and after. 

interesting, i was thinking of "fear" and " ecstasy " as 2 extreme polarities of the soul. 

the 1st related to the animalistic survival instinct. 

the 2nd, a connection with the spirit. 

Of course, the interaction between those 2 can determine the quality of one's thoughts. 

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

interesting, i was thinking of "fear" and " ecstasy " as 2 extreme polarities of the soul. 

the 1st related to the animalistic survival instinct. 

the 2nd, a connection with the spirit. 

Of course, the interaction between those 2 can determine the quality of one's thoughts. 

Before climbing, didnt you have some fear bubbles that made you have a solid plan, make sure you had the right equipment, training, and also excitement for what going to happen which is the drive? Feeling fear meeting a problem, joy and energy when solving the one and single problem, before next? And the ecstasy when finally overcome the fear. 

[mauGR1]

37 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Before climbing, didnt you have some fear bubbles that made you have a solid plan, make sure you had the right equipment, training, and also excitement for what going to happen which is the drive? Feeling fear meeting a problem, joy and energy when solving the one and single problem, before next? And the ecstasy when finally overcome the fear. 

Yes, and the opposite too, when in the middle of some ecstasy i was kind of dancing on the brim of a precipice, the look of fear in the face of my friends was something ????

[Tippaporn]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sorry, but while you are welcome to your beliefs, I don't agree with you. Does a 2 year old create the brain tumour that kills him slowly and in a great deal of pain?

 

If I am in a "circle of hell" it's because of mistakes I made in my life that brought me to it, not because I created it ( unless I am really living in the Matrix, in which case I did ).

"Does a 2 year old create the brain tumour that kills him slowly and in a great deal of pain?"

That's a tough one.  To accept.  You create your own reality.  There is no other main rule.

 

Now, you may not agree with the above, and no doubt you don't.  You assuredly have your own beliefs as to the causes and reasons for the reality of the above hypothetical example.  And one can be assured also that you have no way of proving whatever your belief is.  Despite that fact you believe it anyway.  Despite the fact that you have no way of explaining how your belief works.  If my belief sounds unbelievable then you must admit that your belief sounds just as unbelievable.  Again, remember that your belief comes with no proof nor evidence nor any working model nor any explanation as to why your belief is "true."

The difference between your belief and mine is that while you can offer no explanation, and thus willy nilly believe in whatever sounds about right (much of it guaranteed to be some of the unexamined mass beliefs which were taught you on your trail through life) I at least am able to provide the means for proving what I say to be true to one's self and provide rational and reasoned explanations including a working model.

Is what I say above true?

[Hummin]

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

Yes, and the opposite too, when in the middle of some ecstasy i was kind of dancing on the brim of a precipice, the look of fear in the face of my friends was something ????

All our instincts going back to feel fear and joy hunting or gathering food, find someone to mate with, overcome fear to succeed with s reward of feeling joy and ecstasy, and repeat 

[Hummin]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sorry, but I think to ask why we are here is rather pointless. Unless one believes that we are special, and were specifically created, one would have to accept that we are just another species that evolved from a common ancestor with the apes, and further back with other mammals.

I don't know if our superior brain was intended or an accident, but IMO we have not been good for planet earth.

Why we are is a luxury problem, when all needs is met, but also an existential question if you see no meaning with the life you have. 

[Tippaporn]

6 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

The question I was asking myself was "If emotions are all a product of thoughts, what about ecstasy and (sudden) fear?"
They are both defined as emotions, but I can't see how they would be produced by thought. 

Maybe most emotions are produced by thoughts (thought>emotion), but maybe some come before thoughts (emotion>thought).

Anyway, still trying to make sense of this.

Sorry for the late reply.  Been busy.

 

Seth generally states that emotions and imagination follow thought.  There are a few times where he has qualified that statement with "largely."  And yet I've never come across a given example where emotions or imagination are produced by other means.  Since his repetition of that idea more often than not does not include the qualifier then I think it safe to rely on it without the qualifier.  I'm sure that if the statement without the qualifier was not the, say, typical case then he would have provided the differentiation or further explanation.

 

Ecstasy is certainly an emotion.  But I, myself, don't at all see that emotion divorced from thought.  Per it's definition, which I think is the common accepted one:

 

ecstasy [ ek-stuh-see ]

 

- rapturous delight.

- an overpowering emotion or exaltation; a state of sudden, intense feeling.

- the frenzy of poetic inspiration.

- mental transport or rapture from the contemplation of divine things.

I can think of no example of experiencing the feeling of ecstasy before experiencing thoughts of supreme delight or exaltation.  Do you have an example?

Sudden fear is the result of a sudden awareness of an impending situation . . . real or imagined.   The very instant that a threat is perceived is the same instant that the corresponding emotion is felt.  If one were killed in an instant without ever having an awareness of one's impending doom then the old aphorism, "he never knew what hit him," applies.  Does that make sense to you?

[Tippaporn]

On 3/10/2023 at 5:06 PM, Hummin said:

I have to salute you for your effort, I can not sum up every question I have ignored on this fora, and the simple reason is as you mention, there is impossible to answer, or do not have time, or I have made my self awareness clear in so many previous posts that the questions should not be necessary to answer. I believe I have answered most of your questions. 

 

What is thoughts, emotions and imagination? I would put them in a different order, Emotions - thoughts - imagination and you know this is not done in a short answer, 

 

Do we feel before we think? Do we imagine after emotions, or do the imagination create feelings? How many combinations is it combined with our visuals and hearing as our inner self both mentally and our physics. You asking the ultimate question depending on your belief and your teaching, and there is no good answers really except we are a product of continuous stimuli which brings us back to the biggest question of all, where we come from, why are we, and what is the meaning.

"I believe I have answered most of your questions."

5555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

Well, at least you qualify that as a belief.  Because it's nowhere near factual.

"I would put them in a different order, Emotions - thoughts - imagination and you know this is not done in a short answer."

I don't think you could explain how your theory works even with an answer of any length.  But I do think that you'll never be willing to provide anything other than that short answer.  I guarantee we'll never see one but I'd wager we would see an excuse as to why you won't provide one.

"Do we feel before we think?"

I've said it here many times, even in replies to you directly and as of late, that one of the easiest things to prove to one's self is the fact that thoughts come first and emotions and imagination follow.  Since you are asking the question after I've suggested you test the idea out yourself is, again, the proof in the pudding that you stubbornly ignore anything I tell you.  I'm talking to the proverbial wall.

"You asking the ultimate question depending on your belief and your teaching . . . "

5555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

I'm asking the simplest of questions.  One so simple that anyone can easily figure it out in no time at all, especially given that the answer has been provided already.  All you have to do is confirm via observation.

". . . and there is no good answers really . . . "

The answers are everywhere.  But if you recall you've admittedly stopped searching.  I think the reason you make this statement is so that you can claim all sorts of personal beliefs, never have to worry about being wrong, and never have to worry about anyone holding your feet to the fire to explain yourself.  It's your "get out of jail" free card.  "There is no good answers really.  Not for anything.  We can all just make everything up as we go along.  And anyone's answers are as good as anyone else's.  As long as it's true for you who's to say it's not true.  Everyone gets a passing grade.  Class dismissed."

". . . except we are a product of continuous stimuli . . . "

Got anything to back that statement up?  Do you remember grade school when your math teacher would demand not only the answer to the math problem but also require you to show your work (called proofs).  So this is your answer but no reasoning to show how you've arrived at your answer.  If you had tried that with you math teacher you probably would have received a well deserved rap on the knuckles from her ruler.