Do you believe in God and why

[save the frogs]

Do you believe in .... FREE WILL?

 

 

[Sunmaster]

42 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Do you believe in .... FREE WILL?

 

 

I don't. 

 

Most people in the west see free will as another inalienable birthright of every man, just like the right to life and liberty. Materialists attribute the belief in predestination to the gullible religious zealots.

Well, turns out both are right.

Free will only works on the level of the ego. It needs an observer, an action (the decision making) and a result (the outcome of said decision)...all neatly ordered on a timeline and observable. 

For example, I'm about to go out. The sun is shining so I decide not to take my umbrella. Later that day however, there's a big storm and I get soaked. Free will at work.

But what is the ego identification if not an illusion? Where is the ego when you're asleep? You still exist even though there is no ego at that moment. 

 

What remains once you transcend the ego? The Self. Your true identity, which is the same for all of us. The Self exists always, it is untouched by space or time, it is eternal. How then, could a time and ego dependent free will work for the Self. It doesn't. The Self is just another word for God or Cosmic Consciousness. Ascribing free will to God would mean to diminish his power and he would therefore cease to be God.

 

For the Self there is only the present. The past and the future all happen at the same time. Everything that has happened and will happen is happening right now in accordance with the perfect divine will. 

 

This means that free will only exists as long as we falsely identify with the ego. Once we shed the layers of ignorance that keep us from knowing our true identity, free will will dissipate along with all other illusions. You will still perform actions, but they won't be guided by the ego's will. They will be flawless actions guided by pure intent.

[save the frogs]

sunmaster, not sure I agree with everything you say, but thanks for sharing your thoughts. obviously you've put a lot of thought into this topic. 

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

 

Human comforts and toys.  And entertainment.  Desires don't much go beyond that for many. 

I sometimes wonder if I'd have been happier if I had been like them. One  couple I know is comfortable in their lives, but I don't know anyone that is actually happy with their life. It's like all the joy got sucked out of everyone's life. Too much greed, too many problems, bad governments, wars etc. The news just makes people depressed. Perhaps that's why people drink alcohol too much.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

What remains once you transcend the ego? The Self. Your true identity, which is the same for all of us. The Self exists always, it is untouched by space or time, it is eternal. How then, could a time and ego dependent free will work for the Self. It doesn't. The Self is just another word for God or Cosmic Consciousness. Ascribing free will to God would mean to diminish his power and he would therefore cease to be God.

 

The Self is just another word for God or Cosmic Consciousness

 

I really like that. It's how I feel, but better in words than I could have written.

 

I'm happy that the thread has been resurrected as I'm still learning from it.

[ozimoron]

I'll start believing in God when someone can tell me which god to choose and why.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/3/2024 at 5:27 PM, Tippaporn said:

And such a wonderful example, too!!  I watched Gore's 2006 film An Inconvenient Truth (I can't call it a documentary since there's no truth in it) and I admit my initial reaction was, "Oh my!!  This is terrible!!  I wasn't aware of it."  But that sentiment faded just as quickly as I was able to think through his premises and assumptions.

I too was completely sucked into the myth, but I didn't escape it till I learned that he was flying around in a private jet. Not a good look for a climate warrior!

Since then the gap between what they preach and what they do has widened to a vast chasm.

 

I also believed in the Vietnam war till I heard about Thiew tried to escape with tons of gold.

https://www.nytimes.com/1975/04/16/archives/huge-losses-are-taken-as-thousands-set-flight.html

Time said South Vietnamese officials asked Balair to fly “some personal belongings” of Mr. Thieu and Marshal Lon Nol out of Saigon. But the airline learned that the shipment was 16 tons of gold and refused,

 

I was a very gullible person back then. I've become more cynical since.

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

I'll start believing in God when someone can tell me which god to choose and why.

The Gods, as portrayed in the various religions, are just different interpretations of the One. Just like fingers of the same hand. Don't focus on the fingers, but trace them back to the hand and you'll find your answers.

[Tippaporn]

13 hours ago, save the frogs said:

Do you believe in .... FREE WILL?

 

 

Dr. Robert Sapolsky is a Professor of Biology, Neurology and Neurosurgery at Stanford University.  (The dude on the right.)

 

Oh my God!  This is what science is teaching at one of the premier higher learning institutions?  As I've said before, science does a good job uncovering the physical processes by which the physical world functions but when it comes to the subjective world they have no idea of what they're talking about.  Good grief!

 

Denying even the most obvious aspects of reality seems to be in vogue these days.  From girls becoming boys to boys becoming girls to men having the ability to menstruate and get pregnant to now questioning whether or not free will exists.  WTF is going on?    All I can say is that it ain't gonna end well.

 

Dr. Robert Sapolsky certainly looks the part he's playing.  That dude needs no make up whatsoever.

 

I couldn't resist hearing what he had to say in explanation but I couldn't listen to more than a few minutes.  Whew!

 

For your sake, save the frogs, I hope you don't take this guy seriously.  Amazing.  He's an actual science professor at Stanford teaching impressionable kids absolute nonsense.  Whew!

[Tippaporn]

@Sunmaster

 

A different tact.  A question.

 

From your perspective what's the point of becoming aware of the rest of yourself?

[Tippaporn]

@Sunmaster

 

Separate.  Another question.

 

Again from your perspective, why is Sunmaster in this world?

[Tippaporn]

14 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

I don't. 

 

Most people in the west see free will as another inalienable birthright of every man, just like the right to life and liberty. Materialists attribute the belief in predestination to the gullible religious zealots.

Well, turns out both are right.

Free will only works on the level of the ego. It needs an observer, an action (the decision making) and a result (the outcome of said decision)...all neatly ordered on a timeline and observable. 

For example, I'm about to go out. The sun is shining so I decide not to take my umbrella. Later that day however, there's a big storm and I get soaked. Free will at work.

But what is the ego identification if not an illusion? Where is the ego when you're asleep? You still exist even though there is no ego at that moment. 

 

What remains once you transcend the ego? The Self. Your true identity, which is the same for all of us. The Self exists always, it is untouched by space or time, it is eternal. How then, could a time and ego dependent free will work for the Self. It doesn't. The Self is just another word for God or Cosmic Consciousness. Ascribing free will to God would mean to diminish his power and he would therefore cease to be God.

 

For the Self there is only the present. The past and the future all happen at the same time. Everything that has happened and will happen is happening right now in accordance with the perfect divine will. 

 

This means that free will only exists as long as we falsely identify with the ego. Once we shed the layers of ignorance that keep us from knowing our true identity, free will will dissipate along with all other illusions. You will still perform actions, but they won't be guided by the ego's will. They will be flawless actions guided by pure intent.

 

Now that was revealing.   

[Sunmaster]

4 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

@Sunmaster

 

A different tact.  A question.

 

From your perspective what's the point of becoming aware of the rest of yourself?

A good question....

Not sure if there is a point to it. I see it more as an evolutionary inevitability.
A bit like a grain of iron being attracted to a giant magnet, or a drop of water on its way to the ocean. What's the point of that?

It just is what it is.

 

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

The Gods, as portrayed in the various religions, are just different interpretations of the One. Just like fingers of the same hand. Don't focus on the fingers, but trace them back to the hand and you'll find your answers.

 

So, to be clear. Muslims and Christians and Jews all worship the same god? What about Buddhists and Hindus?

[retarius]

No Ivor, I don't believe in God, Judgement Day or an after life. I think it is simply a superstitious reflection of man's solipsism that they think they are so special so they don't die like other animals but go to heaven our are born again. 

 I remember doing an exercise once to look at foundation myths of various old religions...virgin births (or impregnations by Gods) are very common in Greek and Roman religions; December 25th is also cited often as a special day, and was a Roman Holiday, the birth of Mithra, the sun god; and there are many other very close correlations between Christianity and many Middle Eastern religions. Eastern religions exceptions Zoroastrianism, which follows the Christian tradition, tend to be dominated by Hinduism and Buddhism that originated in India. These have a pantheon of gods, some sort of judgement and a rebirth denominated by how you have lived your life. IO think belief in some sort of divine God upstairs and eternal life are deep archetypal needs in humans which is why all religions have these common superstitions and are so universal. 

 

I am very wary of religious people and dislike any public forms of worship, because all religions are divisive and exclude anyone not from that particular faith. Having said that....if we take organised religions out of it, and focus in the philosophy underpinning religions, then I have to say that Jesus' sermon on the mount crystallises for me, the moral imperatives of the human race. I dislike intensely all of the 'Christian' faith, because they all totally ignore the philosophy of Jesus and focus on the ten commandments and the vengeful God of the OT. The vast majority of Christians are hypocrites. 

 

 

[retarius]

16 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

@Sunmaster

 

A different tact.  A question.

 

From your perspective what's the point of becoming aware of the rest of yourself?

It is a different 'tack', not tact. Tact is about being inoffensive. Tack means direction, as in tacking a different tack, and it derives for sailing terminology, so that when you adjust the sails you are tacking moving in a different direction.

[Sunmaster]

7 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

@Sunmaster

 

Separate.  Another question.

 

Again from your perspective, why is Sunmaster in this world?

Another good question. You're on fire today. :-) 

 

Sunmaster the ego likes to think he can make a difference in the world, that he can bring glimmers of goodness, truth and beauty from the Source to illuminate the dark corners of the world. Nowadays I'm not so sure it makes a difference to be honest, but not out of cynicism. 
I still do my best though, because I enjoy creating, thinking, exploring, being of help. They seem like worthwhile endeavors while here.
I'll mull it over some more and get back to you. Maybe I can come up with a better answer.

 

[Sunmaster]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

So, to be clear. Muslims and Christians and Jews all worship the same god? What about Buddhists and Hindus?

Fingers....Hand.

[Tippaporn]

I had to listen to the rest of the clip @save the frogs.  I just wanted to see how batsh!t crazy this dude is.  At one point Dr. Andrew Huberman asks him about whether the possibility exists that we have even "some small, small shard of free will."  Sapolsky replies with a wide tooth filled grin and crazed, childlike expression to say, "Nah." 

 

The editing of the vid was perfect.  Huberman asks his question with a sheepish grin at the end as if he knows he's about to hear a crazed answer.  The camera switches immediately to the exact moment of Sapolsky's "Nah" reply and then cuts right back to the sane face of Humberman.  The flash effect was pure brilliance. 

 

Thanks for the recent vids, save the frogs.  Pure comedy.  I laughed my ar$e off.  Better than watching Comedy Central. 

 

Video is set to begin just as Huberman poses his question.

 

 

Edited January 5 by Tippaporn

[Sunmaster]

18 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

So, to be clear. Muslims and Christians and Jews all worship the same god? What about Buddhists and Hindus?

The "God" aspects are personifications of the One. "I am here, God is there somewhere." (=Duality)
Buddhism focuses on the One that has not split into 2. So there is no "I" and "God", but only the Self as the undifferentiated Ground of All Being. (Non-Duality). Both are correct in their own ways. 
Hinduism, as I understand it, incorporates both aspects. They have thousands of Gods, but ultimately know that they are all manifestations of the One (Brahman).

Whether you worship the One in its dualistic manifestations (praying to the Christian God, the Jewish God or the Hindu Shiva) or prefer the non-dualistic interpretation is a matter of personal preference and inclination. Whatever works for you and brings you closer to the Source is good for you.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

The "God" aspects are personifications of the One. "I am here, God is there somewhere." (=Duality)
Buddhism focuses on the One that has not split into 2. So there is no "I" and "God", but only the Self as the undifferentiated Ground of All Being. (Non-Duality). Both are correct in their own ways. 
Hinduism, as I understand it, incorporates both aspects. They have thousands of Gods, but ultimately know that they are all manifestations of the One (Brahman).

Whether you worship the One in its dualistic manifestations (praying to the Christian God, the Jewish God or the Hindu Shiva) or prefer the non-dualistic interpretation is a matter of personal preference and inclination. Whatever works for you and brings you closer to the Source is good for you.

 

What works for me is not believing any of these fairy tales. And, no, Hindus don't believe their gods are manifestations of the one god. You might but they don't.

[Sunmaster]

26 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I still do my best though, because I enjoy creating, thinking, exploring, being of help. They seem like worthwhile endeavors while here.

I just listened to the video to and at the end Huberman is saying almost the exact same words. 555 Funny

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

What works for me is not believing any of these fairy tales. And, no, Hindus don't believe their gods are manifestations of the one god. You might but they don't.

You can speak for yourself and that's fine. If you are happy to live this way, who am I to judge. 
But can you speak for 1.2 billion Hindus? I think not.
Maybe have a look at Advaita Vedanta and you will see that it's like I said.

Edited January 5 by Sunmaster

[Tippaporn]

25 minutes ago, retarius said:

It is a different 'tack', not tact. Tact is about being inoffensive. Tack means direction, as in tacking a different tack, and it derives for sailing terminology, so that when you adjust the sails you are tacking moving in a different direction.

 

Thanks, retarius.  Actually, either word works.

 

This would be one of the definitions of the noun 'tact'.

 

a keen sense of what to say or do to avoid giving offense; skill in dealing with difficult or delicate situations

 

And in a sentence.

 

WarnerMedia is taking a different tact in pitching its streaming service than NBCUniversal did when lining up advertisers for its Peacock streamer.

[Sunmaster]

38 minutes ago, retarius said:

because all religions are divisive and exclude anyone not from that particular faith.

Not a fan of dogmatic religions myself, but we need to be fair....

Buddhism and Hinduism (and others) can coexist with other religions/philosophies without problems, because they recognize the unity of them all.
Christianity and Islam are more problematic because they focus on the dualistic aspect of the One, so it's easier to get into the mindset of "my God is the only true God".

But then it always depends on the maturity of the person following a particular religion. There are sects, both in Christianity and Islam, that see this truth as well and have no problems acknowledging the validity of other faiths.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

Not a fan of dogmatic religions myself, but we need to be fair....

Buddhism and Hinduism (and others) can coexist with other religions/philosophies without problems, because they recognize the unity of them all.
Christianity and Islam are more problematic because they focus on the dualistic aspect of the One, so it's easier to get into the mindset of "my God is the only true God".

But then it always depends on the maturity of the person following a particular religion. There are sects, both in Christianity and Islam, that see this truth as well and have no problems acknowledging the validity of other faiths.

 

When Christian nationalists start callign for Muslim prayer in schools in the US I'll believe you.,

[Tippaporn]

48 minutes ago, retarius said:

No Ivor, I don't believe in God, Judgement Day or an after life. I think it is simply a superstitious reflection of man's solipsism that they think they are so special so they don't die like other animals but go to heaven our are born again. 

 I remember doing an exercise once to look at foundation myths of various old religions...virgin births (or impregnations by Gods) are very common in Greek and Roman religions; December 25th is also cited often as a special day, and was a Roman Holiday, the birth of Mithra, the sun god; and there are many other very close correlations between Christianity and many Middle Eastern religions. Eastern religions exceptions Zoroastrianism, which follows the Christian tradition, tend to be dominated by Hinduism and Buddhism that originated in India. These have a pantheon of gods, some sort of judgement and a rebirth denominated by how you have lived your life. IO think belief in some sort of divine God upstairs and eternal life are deep archetypal needs in humans which is why all religions have these common superstitions and are so universal. 

 

I am very wary of religious people and dislike any public forms of worship, because all religions are divisive and exclude anyone not from that particular faith. Having said that....if we take organised religions out of it, and focus in the philosophy underpinning religions, then I have to say that Jesus' sermon on the mount crystallises for me, the moral imperatives of the human race. I dislike intensely all of the 'Christian' faith, because they all totally ignore the philosophy of Jesus and focus on the ten commandments and the vengeful God of the OT. The vast majority of Christians are hypocrites. 

 

 

 

Well, good to see you weren't fooled. 

 

Good point on keeping the focus on the philosophical basis of religions.  There's much value there.

[Sunmaster]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

When Christian nationalists start callign for Muslim prayer in schools in the US I'll believe you.,

Try reading up on the Christian Mystics or the Islamic Sufism and you'll see what I'm talking about. 
The negative things you mentioned and despise are the result of very basic and limited understanding. But whose fault is that really? The teachings or the ones who interpret the teachings?

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

A good question....

Not sure if there is a point to it. I see it more as an evolutionary inevitability.
A bit like a grain of iron being attracted to a giant magnet, or a drop of water on its way to the ocean. What's the point of that?

It just is what it is.

 

 

Revealing as well. 

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Try reading up on the Christian Mystics or the Islamic Sufism and you'll see what I'm talking about. 
The negative things you mentioned and despise are the result of very basic and limited understanding. But whose fault is that really? The teachings or the ones who interpret the teachings?

 

It's clearly the church's fault. You're not going to try and tell me that the SBC (for example) are inclusive are you?