Do you believe in God and why

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Buddha is far from being the only enlightened being in history. There are some right now on the planet, some have written books, some teach, some live in cities, others in caves...
Do you think enlightenment was some sort of anomalous glitch?

and they were all here when they did so

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Skeptic7 said:

That is a wildly incorrect statement IMO. Some (very few) adults think, or learn to think, for themselves. I would say vast majority haven't ever had an independent thought or idea. They need to be told how to act, what to believe, etc. Zero critical thinking ability. Oblivious. It's been said, 'ignorance is bliss'.  

 

People need to be taught how to think, not what to think. 

I thought this reply deserved more than a like.

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, sirineou said:

and they were all here when they did so

Physically sure, but their consciousness?

Edited November 12, 2019 by Sunmaster

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

That is a wildly incorrect statement IMO. Some (very few) adults think, or learn to think, for themselves. I would say vast majority haven't ever had an independent thought or idea. They need to be told how to act, what to believe, etc. Zero critical thinking ability. Oblivious. It's been said, 'ignorance is bliss'.  

 

People need to be taught how to think, not what to think. 

What this tells me, is that you look down on people who don't share your world view and says nothing about the "vast majority". Self centered and condescending....not very nice for someone who professes the superiority of the "atheist cast".

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

Physically sure, but their consciousness?

Ahh Consciousness, That's whole other subject  worthy of it's own Thread. What is really consciousness? 

IMO the only thing that exists is information and how it relates to each other. We are simply packets of information sets and depending of the content of these packets we derive "consciousness" of the possible remaining information and a desire to access it.  Does what I just said makes any sense.?

That is why we are indestructible and internal, because you can not destroy  information.

 

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, sirineou said:

Ahh Consciousness, That's whole other subject  worthy of it's own Thread. What is really consciousness? 

IMO the only thing that exists is information and how it relates to each other. We are simply packets of information sets and depending of the content of these packets we derive "consciousness" of the possible remaining information and a desire to access it.  Does what I just said makes any sense.?

That is why we are indestructible and internal, because you can not destroy  information.

 

It's indeed a big and very interesting subject. 
Absolutely, what you say about information makes perfect sense. For me though, that information is not just cold bits, but is carried by a nurturing, loving force. They are indivisible and eternal. 

[Becker]

Obviously there's a God and he's an old white dude. I mean, how else could you explain the fact that I'm regularly being hailed by nubile 20-somethings calling me a "sexy man" and inquiring about my future whereabouts??

[Skeptic7]

25 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

What this tells me, is that you look down on people who don't share your world view and says nothing about the "vast majority". Self centered and condescending....not very nice for someone who professes the superiority of the "atheist cast".

You've mistaken me for another. Sure, I'm tough on people when they are deserving of it, but never professed atheist superiority. That was another poster, mind. 

 

Hey...I took the bait and played your little thought experiment game. No clever quips? No reply at all? LOL No surprise...just like Curly and Moe..."crickets" when faced with tough questions and presented valid answers.

[mauGR1]

30 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

That is a wildly incorrect statement IMO. Some (very few) adults think, or learn to think, for themselves. I would say vast majority haven't ever had an independent thought or idea. They need to be told how to act, what to believe, etc. Zero critical thinking ability. Oblivious. It's been said, 'ignorance is bliss'.  

 

People need to be taught how to think, not what to think. 

Although i am quite sure that @Sunmaster can think for himself, and i am also not sure about the "vast majority" not having independent thoughts, i agree with the final line.

So, would you care to expand on the "how to think" thingy ?

( i don't have a clue, that's why i ask )

[Skeptic7]

Just now, mauGR1 said:

Although i am quite sure that @Sunmaster can think for himself, and i am also not sure about the "vast majority" not having independent thoughts, i agree with the final line.

So, would you care to expand on the "how to think" thingy ?

( i don't have a clue, that's why i ask )

That wasn't directed @Sunmaster . And like you...I agree with your final line in ( ) ????

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

That wasn't directed @Sunmaster . And like you...I agree with your final line in ( ) ????

So you don't have a clue.. QED ????

[sirineou]

41 minutes ago, Becker said:

Obviously there's a God and he's an old white dude. I mean, how else could you explain the fact that I'm regularly being hailed by nubile 20-somethings calling me a "sexy man" and inquiring about my future whereabouts??

Yes but can you dance?

God is a white guy

 

[Sunmaster]

On 11/10/2019 at 6:35 PM, Skeptic7 said:

REMEMBER...indulging your little thought experiment to see where you're going with this. There is no credible evidence of anything supernatural ever and I firmly stand by that. Just because I played along doesn't mean I'm on board or even considerin, so please don't go there. 

You said "don't go there"....so I didn't.
So, which one is it? Go or no go?

Edited November 12, 2019 by Sunmaster

[mauGR1]

31 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

You said "don't go there"....so I didn't.
So, which one is it? Go or no go?

Give him some time, he's probably trying to find out the difference between what to think and how to think.

[Skeptic7]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

You said "don't go there"....so I didn't.
So, which one is it? Go or no go?

 

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Give him some time, he's probably trying to find out the difference between what to think and how to think.

HEY 2 of the 3 Stooges. Here's the last paragraph again so maybe this time you'll read it and understand it. 

 

REMEMBER...indulging your little thought experiment to see where you're going with this. There is no credible evidence of anything supernatural ever and I firmly stand by that. Just because I played along doesn't mean I'm on board or even considerin, so please don't go there.

 

CLEARLY states that i indulged and played along to see where you're going, BUT kindly asked not to use the typical...OH LOOK HE'S DOUBTING HIMSELF AND MUST BELIEVE OUR BS BECAUSE HE'S NOW THINKING ABOUT IT line, which so many of you do when you're straw-manning. NOT that u 2 ever do that...cough-cough choke-choke. ???? Asked you please not to take it there...that is all. 

 

So bring it...if ya got anything to bring, which is highly doubtful.

 

[Skeptic7]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Give him some time, he's probably trying to find out the difference between what to think and how to think.

And for you...Moe. Guess I have to spell out the joke on you. Agreed with your last sentence in ( ) where you said you don't have a clue. The most accurate statement you've made in 238 pages.

[mauGR1]

5 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

And for you...Moe. Guess I have to spell out the joke on you. Agreed with your last sentence in ( ) where you said you don't have a clue. The most accurate statement you've made in 238 pages.

Thanks, i will also repeat my question.

"People need to be taught how to think, not what to think". 

Can you explain that ? Take your time, no need to hurry up.

If it's too difficult for you, i understand ????

[Sunmaster]

On 11/10/2019 at 6:35 PM, Skeptic7 said:

Different answers for different hypotheticals and cover most bases. Don't have a clue what Spirit means and don't recall a sufficient explanation, but I'll induldge you and play loosely along.

 

I don't know what that evidence could possibly be, but if hypothetical "force" is a conscious entity then IT should surely know and provide it.

 

A concensus in the science community around the globe would be intriguing and interesting and possibly something in which to look further IF there were truly worthwhile benefits which could be demonstrated with a success rate much greater than chance. 

 

Personal experience, while surely powerful to the one involved, is not credible IMO. The brain is an amazing organ and capable of all sorts of fascinating feats, as well as delusions and hallucinations, feelings, etc and humans have selective and unreliable memories. My own personal experience would be insufficient and immaterial unless it could be channeled and repeated for some obvious benefit and good to show the world at will. Otherwise it's just a crazy claim by a wooster.

 

REMEMBER...indulging your little thought experiment to see where you're going with this. There is no credible evidence of anything supernatural ever and I firmly stand by that. Just because I played along doesn't mean I'm on board or even considerin, so please don't go there. 

Ok, to make it perfectly clear: I have no hidden agenda to "convert" anyone, I'm not part of any religious organization and couldn't care less. What I care about is an honest exchange of opinions. We all have different theories about life, and yes, even your science based belief systems are only theories. What makes it interesting is to confront the different theories, by probing and poking at other mental constructs and at the same time evaluating one's own.

If for some reason a new bit of information comes along that I consider to be true, it can be integrated into my theory. If that bit of information completely challenges the bases of my theory, I would not think twice to drop my old one and build a new theory around it. I don't identify with my belief system. I keep it as long as it makes sense to me.

When I asked these questions, it was not to sneakily introduce you to theism, "forcing it down your throat". Like I said, I don't care about that and knowing you, it wouldn't work anyway.

What I wanted was to understand the position of an atheist.

You were given 2 hypothetical choices:
1) Accept that there is a conscious force in the universe, because scientists have discovered irrefutable proof.

2) Accept that there is a conscious force in the universe, because you had a personal, subjective revelation.

To 1) you responded with "interesting maybe, but what are my benefits?"

To 2) you answered "If I had it, I wouldn't believe myself because I couldn't prove it to others. And what are my benefits anyway?"

 

What I see from your answer is a narcissistic stance, from where you evaluate everything based on the benefit you can get from it. "Alright then, God exists....but what can he do for me?"...or something like that. ???? Like I said in a previous comment: self-centered.

------------------

Ultimately, I think the main differences between an atheist and a non-atheist are 2 fundamental points:
- That there's only this physical life to live and then the oblivion

- That you are only biological entities and separated from the world around you

 

In my opinion, these 2 points produce a very skewed view of life, and generate all sorts of other misconceptions. But that's for another time.

I hope you're satisfied now, although I doubt it.

[Skeptic7]

18 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Ok, to make it perfectly clear: I have no hidden agenda to "convert" anyone, I'm not part of any religious organization and couldn't care less. What I care about is an honest exchange of opinions. We all have different theories about life, and yes, even your science based belief systems are only theories. What makes it interesting is to confront the different theories, by probing and poking at other mental constructs and at the same time evaluating one's own.

If for some reason a new bit of information comes along that I consider to be true, it can be integrated into my theory. If that bit of information completely challenges the bases of my theory, I would not think twice to drop my old one and build a new theory around it. I don't identify with my belief system. I keep it as long as it makes sense to me.

When I asked these questions, it was not to sneakily introduce you to theism, "forcing it down your throat". Like I said, I don't care about that and knowing you, it wouldn't work anyway.

What I wanted was to understand the position of an atheist.

You were given 2 hypothetical choices:
1) Accept that there is a conscious force in the universe, because scientists have discovered irrefutable proof.

2) Accept that there is a conscious force in the universe, because you had a personal, subjective revelation.

To 1) you responded with "interesting maybe, but what are my benefits?"

To 2) you answered "If I had it, I wouldn't believe myself because I couldn't prove it to others. And what are my benefits anyway?"

 

What I see from your answer is a narcissistic stance, from where you evaluate everything based on the benefit you can get from it. "Alright then, God exists....but what can he do for me?"...or something like that. ???? Like I said in a previous comment: self-centered.

------------------

Ultimately, I think the main differences between an atheist and a non-atheist are 2 fundamental points:
- That there's only this physical life to live and then the oblivion

- That you are only biological entities and separated from the world around you

 

In my opinion, these 2 points produce a very skewed view of life, and generate all sorts of other misconceptions. But that's for another time.

I hope you're satisfied now, although I doubt it.

In post 3383 you tout the benefits of meditation 4 times, but I honestly stated that for this Spirit-thingy to be real, it would have to be demonstrable and beneficial and you have the hypocritical audacity to berate me for being self-centered. SAME AS YOU! Of course nobody does anything if it's not beneficial to at least themself. DUH! Those who claim otherwise are lying.

 

This will save u some time. Below is what you said about meditation in post 3383 (and surely it's the same with your Spirit...assumed or believed to benefit the believer, otherwise why believe it...RIGHT?) 

 

But denying the benefits of meditation, if only the physical and emotional benefits, is just ridiculous. 
Meditation has been around for thousands of years. Do you think people would spend years doing it, if they didn't get any benefits?? 

 

(NO I DON'T AND NEITHER DO YOU!)

 

Science has researched meditation for only a few decades, but even in this short period of time, has come to the conclusion that there are real, tangible benefits from meditation. 

 

Goose and gander. Pot meet Kettle! ????

[mauGR1]

@Skeptic7 & @Sunmaster i was following your conversation, and you are both right in a way.

Everyone does something for his/her benefit, for example, if one thinks that helping others is the greatest joy, he is still doing it for his benefit, as it makes him feel good.

If one thinks that taking advantage of others is the greatest joy, he is also doing it for his benefit.

So we have 2 persons doing something for their own benefit, yet one is working for a better world, and the other one is creating disasters.

As a believer of the karmic law, i have no doubts that good actions will get me some benefit in the long term, even past this life, while bad actions may give me the illusion of a temporary benefit, but will be detrimental in the long term.

I know this will make no sense to an atheist, but it probably will for a believer.

[Sunmaster]

I can understand that you might think so, but it's not quite the same.

The benefits I get from meditating or having the world view that I have, are SECONDARY to, and a RESULT of my worldview. I don't have this worldview BECAUSE it gives me benefits, yet they are a welcomed perk of it.

 

You on the other hand, would ignore or downplay the fundamental, belief-system-shattering realization that there is indeed a greater force, and just say "What do I get out of it?". 

Can you see the difference?

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sunmaster

[canuckamuck]

What I get from my world view is a satisfaction of an ordered world view. A foundation on which to anchor abstract realities. If I didn't have it I would search for it. So I have my world view, at least partially because of what I get from it. 

Without need we have no action. This is a mind need, not a physical, or spiritual need

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

I can understand that you might think so, but it's not quite the same.

The benefits I get from meditating or having the world view that I have, are SECONDARY to, and a RESULT of my worldview. I don't have this worldview BECAUSE it gives me benefits, yet they are a welcomed perk of it.

 

You on the other hand, would ignore or downplay the fundamental, belief-system-shattering realization that there is indeed a greater force, and just say "What do I get out of it?". 

Can you see the difference?

 

Well, i guess this is directed to me, so, just to clarify, i am not ignoring or downplaying the "greater force" , and i am trying to be conscious of what the universe is communicating.

As i state quite clearly that my aim is to evolve, there lies my benefit, even if the path could be difficult at times.

To be honest i am bit confused by this post, but i'll try to read it again and understand it better.

Sometimes the words are confusing.

[Sunmaster]

@mauGR1, no this was a reply to Skeptic.
I think you posted it just before I hit the "post" button.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sunmaster

[Tagged]

Anyone ever been thinking about the reward system, the bonus you will get? Why would he create us, and then reward us? 

 

In what end is the pleasure to god? Create, beslave us, and then reward us or punish us. BTW, the gods punish people every day all over the planet, and it is called the nature law, and I guess, I repeat I guess that happens right now many other places in the universe(s)

 

 

[Sunmaster]

7 hours ago, Tagged said:

Anyone ever been thinking about the reward system, the bonus you will get? Why would he create us, and then reward us? 

 

In what end is the pleasure to god? Create, beslave us, and then reward us or punish us. BTW, the gods punish people every day all over the planet, and it is called the nature law, and I guess, I repeat I guess that happens right now many other places in the universe(s)

 

 

I think your questions only make sense if you accept the concept of "God" of the Abrahamic religions. A grumpy old fart in the sky who will give you a ticket to heaven if you're a good boy or punish you with eternal damnation if you don't behave. 
This, of course, is a very distorted interpretation and I venture to say that most of us can agree on that.

 

The way I see it, the Source is not going to interfere with your free will, otherwise it would have stopped Hitler, Stalin or Mao from slaughtering millions.  The Source is benevolent, the ultimate expression of love, wisdom, truth and compassion. How then, could it ever be so petty to punish you for not believing in it? In my mind this is just a ridiculous notion.
Actions do have consequences though, but they have more to do with your own Self and your own spiritual progress rather than heaven or hell. There's no judgment whatsoever from the source. You'll be your own judge.

I think the most important aspect of every action is the intention behind it.
Do you help that person out of kindness or because you expect a reward in the afterlife?

Do you donate money to that temple to help others or because you expect your next incarnation to be better?
These things matter.
 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sunmaster

[mauGR1]

11 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I think the most important aspect of every action is the intention behind it.
Do you help that person out of kindness or because you expect a reward in the afterlife?

Do you donate money to that temple to help others or because you expect your next incarnation to be better?
These things matter.

I am sure of your good intention in posting these thoughts, but i find these concepts debatable.

I think the most important aspect of some actions (not all ) is the action itself.

If expecting a sort of reward in the afterlife makes people kinder, that's what matters.

The purest form of love on this planet is the love of a mother for her child, as far as i know, but even then, the mother gets rewarded by the well being of her child.

So to do something good for a reward in the afterlife is still much better than doing something bad for a reward in this life.

As for the non-believers, doing something good just make them feel good, i guess.

 

[Sunmaster]

Right. I agree with that.

6 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

So to do something good for a reward in the afterlife is still much better than doing something bad for a reward in this life.

By continuation, doing something good for the sake of doing something good, is the best, because the pure intention behind it amplifies the action.

Maybe ????

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

Right. I agree with that.

By continuation, doing something good for the sake of doing something good, is the best, because the pure intention behind it amplifies the action.

Maybe ????

Sure ! But then we would be talking of extremely evolved human beings, i guess ????

[luckyluke]

17 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

 

As for the non-believers, doing something good just make them feel good, i guess.

 

In my personal case it does, but it isn't the major reason.

Doing good is obvious/standard;

doing bad, intentionally, isn't,

in my opinion.