Do you believe in God and why

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, StreetCowboy said:

I prefer to think of it as a suggestion, meant for discussion, rather than a proposal, but my wife saw otherwise

Got it, you Normans got the Latin language your own way.

[StreetCowboy]

This thread is like Brexit without the consequences. But just in case, I crossed myself after I wrote that. You can’t be too careful

[sweatalot]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

 

 

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The other questions that come to mind are, if there is a God, where did God come from, and if there isn't, where did the universe come from, and don't try to tell me it just came into existence from nothing?

Yes, It came into existence from nothing

(nothingness = emptiness)

emptiness is everywhere, underlying everything that is

You can take away everything or imagine to do so -but you cannot take away emptiness

emptiness is the potential to be everything.

Understand if you can

[OneEyedPie]

2 minutes ago, sweatalot said:

(nothingness = emptiness)

That sums up the contents of my head but you're missing a trick.  Nothingness = emptiness = ? 

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, sweatalot said:

 

Yes, It came into existence from nothing

(nothingness = emptiness)

emptiness is everywhere, underlying everything that is

You can take away everything or imagine to do so -but you cannot take away emptiness

emptiness is the potential to be everything.

Understand if you can

Quite abstract, years ago i randomly came to the same conclusion, i cannot say i fully understand though.

[VincentRJ]

What a long an fascinating thread. This is not the usual type of conversation that prevails in a pub, is it? ????

 

However, joke aside, I do find this to be a serious topic that is very relevant to the welfare and future well-being of all of humanity, and the natural environment in general.

 

Understanding the nature and the purpose of all religions should be a part of the education system. The reason it isn't a requirement in all school curricula is because specific 'beliefs' play such a fundamental beneficial role in many peoples' lives, despite having negative effects in terms of the consequences of war and conflict and the unquestioning acceptance of impractical and harmful rules and dogmas.

 

I'm not sure whether the placebo effect has already been raised in this thread, because I haven't read all the posts in the 65 pages, but one major beneficial effect of religious belief could be described as the placebo effect.

 

Those of you familiar with the stories in the New Testament might recall that scene where Jesus was healing the sick among a large crowd of followers. At one point he felt someone touching his robe from behind. Jesus turned around and asked 'Who touched me?' After some time, a woman came forth and admitted it was she who had touched his robe. However, she also claimed that she was healed as a result.
Jesus replied, 'It was your faith in me that healed you'. In other words, Jesus was describing what is now known as the placebo effect.

 

It might surprise some people that there's a lot of evidence that suggests the placebo effect is prevalent throughout everyone's life, whether one considers oneself to be religious or not. It is estimated that, on average, about 30% of the efficacy of well tested drugs administered by a doctor, is due to the 'faith' of the patient in the medical system in general, plus a degree of faith in the competence of the individual doctor who has prescribed the drug.

 

When new drugs undergo their final test before acceptance, the procedure usually consists of a 'double blind' test where one group is given the actual drug, and another group is given a placebo, over the course of a specified period of time. Neither the patient nor the doctor administering the drugs know which is the placebo. If the real drug shows a significantly greater benefit than the placebo, then the drug is usually approved. But that doesn't mean there was no beneficial effect from the placebo. There usually is at least some beneficial effect from the placebo.

 

In fact, some tests have shown that even when the patient is informed that he is taking a placebo, there can be a beneficial effect. This effect is thought to arise merely from the social interaction, attention and loving care directed from the doctors and nurses to the patient.

 

The opposite of the placebo effect is the nocebo effect. If a patient has experienced in the past, adverse effects from taking a specific drug, such as headaches and nausea, then the patient will likely experience similar adverse effects when taking  a placebo which he believes is the same drug that previously caused those effects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
 

The effects of the placebo and nocebo are fundamental to all beliefs, whether  the belief is a conventional religion, or a belief that the sun will rise tomorrow as it has always done during the history of the planet.

 

[geoffbezoz]

2 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

What a long an fascinating thread. This is not the usual type of conversation that prevails in a pub, is it? ????

 

However, joke aside, I do find this to be a serious topic that is very relevant to the welfare and future well-being of all of humanity, and the natural environment in general.

 

Understanding the nature and the purpose of all religions should be a part of the education system. The reason it isn't a requirement in all school curricula is because specific 'beliefs' play such a fundamental beneficial role in many peoples' lives, despite having negative effects in terms of the consequences of war and conflict and the unquestioning acceptance of impractical and harmful rules and dogmas.

 

I'm not sure whether the placebo effect has already been raised in this thread, because I haven't read all the posts in the 65 pages, but one major beneficial effect of religious belief could be described as the placebo effect.

 

Those of you familiar with the stories in the New Testament might recall that scene where Jesus was healing the sick among a large crowd of followers. At one point he felt someone touching his robe from behind. Jesus turned around and asked 'Who touched me?' After some time, a woman came forth and admitted it was she who had touched his robe. However, she also claimed that she was healed as a result.
Jesus replied, 'It was your faith in me that healed you'. In other words, Jesus was describing what is now known as the placebo effect.

 

It might surprise some people that there's a lot of evidence that suggests the placebo effect is prevalent throughout everyone's life, whether one considers oneself to be religious or not. It is estimated that, on average, about 30% of the efficacy of well tested drugs administered by a doctor, is due to the 'faith' of the patient in the medical system in general, plus a degree of faith in the competence of the individual doctor who has prescribed the drug.

 

When new drugs undergo their final test before acceptance, the procedure usually consists of a 'double blind' test where one group is given the actual drug, and another group is given a placebo, over the course of a specified period of time. Neither the patient nor the doctor administering the drugs know which is the placebo. If the real drug shows a significantly greater benefit than the placebo, then the drug is usually approved. But that doesn't mean there was no beneficial effect from the placebo. There usually is at least some beneficial effect from the placebo.

 

In fact, some tests have shown that even when the patient is informed that he is taking a placebo, there can be a beneficial effect. This effect is thought to arise merely from the social interaction, attention and loving care directed from the doctors and nurses to the patient.

 

The opposite of the placebo effect is the nocebo effect. If a patient has experienced in the past, adverse effects from taking a specific drug, such as headaches and nausea, then the patient will likely experience similar adverse effects when taking  a placebo which he believes is the same drug that previously caused those effects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
 

The effects of the placebo and nocebo are fundamental to all beliefs, whether  the belief is a conventional religion, or a belief that the sun will rise tomorrow as it has always done during the history of the planet.

 

Don't confuse a load of tommy rot, often referred to as religion and a scientific fact, that the sun will rise tomorrow, and will do so , for a few billion years yet until our star is exhausted of energy.

[sweatalot]

 

 

45 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 

The effects of the placebo and nocebo are fundamental to all beliefs, whether  the belief is a conventional religion, or a belief that the sun will rise tomorrow as it has always done during the history of the planet.

This just shows the power of belief. The belief in the power of some object or even fantasy works even if the object or fantasy has no power or does not exist.

 

This was meant in a previous post of mine:

"We are creating our world. The religious create the god whom they deserve. The atheists create their godless world. The fearful create a dangerous world. The science believers create a logical and obsessive world.  The fearless, happy and honest people (with a mind like children) create heaven on earth for themselves. The churches created hell.

But who the hell created Thai Visa? "

 

 

The faith of religious people that their "god" can help them - can actually help them.

Abuse by "prophets" or churches who pretend to speak in the name of a supreme being might do harm - and did. Just to mention religious war and hate.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by sweatalot

[Skeptic7]

30 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

What a long an fascinating thread. This is not the usual type of conversation that prevails in a pub, is it? ????

 

However, joke aside, I do find this to be a serious topic that is very relevant to the welfare and future well-being of all of humanity, and the natural environment in general.

 

Understanding the nature and the purpose of all religions should be a part of the education system. The reason it isn't a requirement in all school curricula is because specific 'beliefs' play such a fundamental beneficial role in many peoples' lives, despite having negative effects in terms of the consequences of war and conflict and the unquestioning acceptance of impractical and harmful rules and dogmas.

 

I'm not sure whether the placebo effect has already been raised in this thread, because I haven't read all the posts in the 65 pages, but one major beneficial effect of religious belief could be described as the placebo effect.

 

Those of you familiar with the stories in the New Testament might recall that scene where Jesus was healing the sick among a large crowd of followers. At one point he felt someone touching his robe from behind. Jesus turned around and asked 'Who touched me?' After some time, a woman came forth and admitted it was she who had touched his robe. However, she also claimed that she was healed as a result.
Jesus replied, 'It was your faith in me that healed you'. In other words, Jesus was describing what is now known as the placebo effect.

 

It might surprise some people that there's a lot of evidence that suggests the placebo effect is prevalent throughout everyone's life, whether one considers oneself to be religious or not. It is estimated that, on average, about 30% of the efficacy of well tested drugs administered by a doctor, is due to the 'faith' of the patient in the medical system in general, plus a degree of faith in the competence of the individual doctor who has prescribed the drug.

 

When new drugs undergo their final test before acceptance, the procedure usually consists of a 'double blind' test where one group is given the actual drug, and another group is given a placebo, over the course of a specified period of time. Neither the patient nor the doctor administering the drugs know which is the placebo. If the real drug shows a significantly greater benefit than the placebo, then the drug is usually approved. But that doesn't mean there was no beneficial effect from the placebo. There usually is at least some beneficial effect from the placebo.

 

In fact, some tests have shown that even when the patient is informed that he is taking a placebo, there can be a beneficial effect. This effect is thought to arise merely from the social interaction, attention and loving care directed from the doctors and nurses to the patient.

 

The opposite of the placebo effect is the nocebo effect. If a patient has experienced in the past, adverse effects from taking a specific drug, such as headaches and nausea, then the patient will likely experience similar adverse effects when taking  a placebo which he believes is the same drug that previously caused those effects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
 

The effects of the placebo and nocebo are fundamental to all beliefs, whether  the belief is a conventional religion, or a belief that the sun will rise tomorrow as it has always done during the history of the planet.

 

LONG post detailing a very common and well known effect...placebo. No one is saying that people can't believe whatever nonsense they choose and that it may even provide some benefit or comfort. HOWEVER...the problems start when they start legislating and ramming their beliefs down everyone's throats. Taking rights away from others, discriminating against others and getting preferential treatment from the government. Christians and Muslims use this tactic ad nauseum...and any placebo effect is ineffective against pushing back. That's where facts, evidence, and real education must be applied. Science to combat the opium of the masses. 

 

 

[sweatalot]

5 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

LONG post detailing a very common and well known effect...placebo. No one is saying that people can't believe whatever nonsense they choose and that it may even provide some benefit or comfort. HOWEVER...the problems start when they start legislating and ramming their beliefs down everyone's throats. Taking rights away from others, discriminating against others and getting preferential treatment from the government. Christians and Muslims use this tactic ad nauseum...and any placebo effect is ineffective against pushing back. That's where facts, evidence, and real education must be applied. Science to combat the opium of the masses. 

 

 

not often that I agree with you. But this time I do. But the religons are not God. And the harm they do is not done by God

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

facts, evidence, and real education must be applied. Science to combat the opium of the masses.  

Sounds like a real zealot.

(a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.)

[Skeptic7]

11 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Sounds like a real zealot.

(a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.)

Yeah, just wanting freedom and equality for EVERYONE...not just favored religious sects with all the preferential and special treatment...is really radical. 

 

Just wanting reality, logic and reason taught to the children is really radical. Kids need to be taught HOW to think...NOT what to think. I know, I know...really radical. 

 

Must be nice residing on Planet Out Of Touch! 

 

The Zealot 

[mauGR1]

15 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Yeah, just wanting freedom and equality for EVERYONE...not just favored religious sects with all the preferential and special treatment...is really radical. 

 

Just wanting reality, logic and reason taught to the children is really radical. Kids need to be taught HOW to think...NOT what to think. I know, I know...really radical. 

 

Must be nice residing on Planet Out Of Touch! 

 

The Zealot 

What about enjoying your freedom, and let others enjoy theirs ?

Edited May 7, 2019 by mauGR1

[VincentRJ]

40 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

LONG post detailing a very common and well known effect...placebo. No one is saying that people can't believe whatever nonsense they choose and that it may even provide some benefit or comfort. HOWEVER...the problems start when they start legislating and ramming their beliefs down everyone's throats. Taking rights away from others, discriminating against others and getting preferential treatment from the government. Christians and Muslims use this tactic ad nauseum...and any placebo effect is ineffective against pushing back. That's where facts, evidence, and real education must be applied. Science to combat the opium of the masses. 

 

The placebo effect is not well-understood and is very difficult to quantify scientifically because of so many variables. Whether or not the nature of a person's belief is nonsense in the view of others, has no effect on the placebo benefit unless that view that it's nonsense is effectively 'rammed down their throats' as you put it.

 

This is why the issue of religion is so sensitive. Religious conflicts are effectively battles between the placebo and the nocebo. Undermining a person's religion is like robbing them of a placebo benefit and introducing a negative nocebo effect, unless they willingly convert to another belief system, which could be a belief in another religion, switching from Islam to Buddhism for example, or switching to a belief in the ultimate benefits of the methodology of science.
 

[notmyself]

5 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

LONG post detailing a very common and well known effect...placebo. No one is saying that people can't believe whatever nonsense they choose and that it may even provide some benefit or comfort. HOWEVER...the problems start when they start legislating and ramming their beliefs down everyone's throats. Taking rights away from others, discriminating against others and getting preferential treatment from the government. Christians and Muslims use this tactic ad nauseum...and any placebo effect is ineffective against pushing back. That's where facts, evidence, and real education must be applied. Science to combat the opium of the masses. 

 

I don't care if someone believes themselves to be a chicken sandwich. Well, it might make me sad but ultimately it's none of my business and nor should it be. The problem only starts when that person/s demands respect for that belief and/or tries to legislate so as that belief affects others.  

 

 

 

[marcusarelus]

On 5/5/2019 at 6:03 PM, Skeptic7 said:

Dying is a natural process. The brain is capable of amazing things. People write books about all kinds of things...NDE, out of body, alien abduction and so on. Some are outright frauds, some just want to sell books and others are accurate but explain nothing. Neuroscience is studying this phenomenon and while it's still not totally understood...it sure looks like...ONCE AGAIN...a natural explanation will be the answer. Here's a decent article on the subject from a reliable source:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/happiness-in-world/201105/the-neurology-near-death-experiences

The article says not enough information to draw any conclusions. 

[marcusarelus]

15 minutes ago, notmyself said:

 

I don't care if someone believes themselves to be a chicken sandwich. Well, it might make me sad but ultimately it's none of my business and nor should it be. The problem only starts when that person/s demands respect for that belief and/or tries to legislate so as that belief affects others. 

Or chop people's heads off for not believing.  I don't mind a Christmas tree but the beheading a bit much. 

[OneEyedPie]

4 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I don't mind a Christmas tree but the beheading a bit much. 

Unless it's Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn then agreed, it's a little extreme.

[Sunmaster]

37 minutes ago, notmyself said:

 

I don't care if someone believes themselves to be a chicken sandwich. Well, it might make me sad but ultimately it's none of my business and nor should it be. The problem only starts when that person/s demands respect for that belief and/or tries to legislate so as that belief affects others.  

 

 

 

Agreed.

One point I find fascinating: the placebo effect...
How many times have we heard the phrase "That pill didn't do anything, it was just the placebo effect".

I find it amazing that a belief in something can actually change matter (your body at least) in a way, causing all kinds of results.

A belief can make you physically sick (hypochondriacs) or cause healing (spontaneous cancer regression?).

For sure it affects the people around you, creating a feedback loop. For example, if you believe that everyone is conspiring against you, people will react to that and those reactions will further feed that belief.
On the other hand, if you believe that people are generally good and the world is a benevolent place, you will get all kinds of signals that it is indeed like that.
Now these things happen quite unconsciously. Imagine then what can happen if you use the power of intention completely consciously by focusing it on something.

What you believe, what you think and consequently the way you act on those beliefs and thoughts, shape the world around you. There's nothing esoteric about it: everyone probably knows at least one person that is depressed and can compare it to another person who is optimistic and has 'joie de vivre'.

What do the skeptics think about this?
 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Sunmaster

[OneMoreFarang]

Be careful what you write here. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is watching you.

[notmyself]

7 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

What a long an fascinating thread. This is not the usual type of conversation that prevails in a pub, is it?

 

Threads on this subject often close because they get a bit heated but this one has been quite polite.

 

 

[PJPom]

will we reach a thousand posts before someone says "and they all lived happily ever after " isn't that how all fairy tales end ?

[OneEyedPie]

8 minutes ago, PJPom said:

will we reach a thousand posts before someone says "and they all lived happily ever after " isn't that how all fairy tales end ?

O ye, of little faith.

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, notmyself said:

 

I don't care if someone believes themselves to be a chicken sandwich. Well, it might make me sad but ultimately it's none of my business and nor should it be. The problem only starts when that person/s demands respect for that belief and/or tries to legislate so as that belief affects others. 

 

 

 

Preachin' to the choir bro! 

 

I obviously agree with you since you've just repeated exactly back what I've said throughout this thread (and others) and as recently as post #979 above...and from which you quoted me. Seems you'd be better served if you directed it towards those who aren't on the same page. 

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

The article says not enough information to draw any conclusions. 

Never claimed it did, not even close. Here's the actual conclusion of the article... 

 

In sum then, though far from proven, as an explanation for what actually explains near-death experiences, the REM intrusion hypothesis has far more evidence to support it than does the idea that we actually do leave our bodies when death looms near.

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Agreed.

One point I find fascinating: the placebo effect...
How many times have we heard the phrase "That pill didn't do anything, it was just the placebo effect".

I find it amazing that a belief in something can actually change matter (your body at least) in a way, causing all kinds of results.

A belief can make you physically sick (hypochondriacs) or cause healing (spontaneous cancer regression?).

For sure it affects the people around you, creating a feedback loop. For example, if you believe that everyone is conspiring against you, people will react to that and those reactions will further feed that belief.
On the other hand, if you believe that people are generally good and the world is a benevolent place, you will get all kinds of signals that it is indeed like that.
Now these things happen quite unconsciously. Imagine then what can happen if you use the power of intention completely consciously by focusing it on something.

What you believe, what you think and consequently the way you act on those beliefs and thoughts, shape the world around you. There's nothing esoteric about it: everyone probably knows at least one person that is depressed and can compare it to another person who is optimistic and has 'joie de vivre'.

What do the skeptics think about this?
 

I consider myself to be both an agnostic and an atheist. I'm an agnostic in the sense that I think I'm aware of how little the total sum of humanity's understanding is, in the context of the entire universe. For example, astrophysicist have reached the stage of hypothesizing that 95% of the matter and energy in the universe is invisible and undetectable. They give it the names Dark Matter and Dark Energy. In other words, all our sophisticated measuring devices, and telescopes, like the Hubble telescope, can detect only 5% of the matter and energy that surrounds us.

 

In view of such limitation on our scientific knowledge, including lots of uncertainties on many issues, such as the role of most of our DNA which was originally classified as junk DNA when biologists thought they had 'cracked' the human genome, I find it 'unbelievable' that any individual in the past could have, in reality, received an understanding of the Creator of the Universe. In that sense, I'm an atheist.

 

Nevertheless, if someone really does believe that they can communicate, through a process of prayers, with such an enormously powerful entity described as the Creator God, then I can appreciate that the placebo effect could be very strong, stronger than the normal placebo effect resulting from a confidence in the medical system. So-called 'miracle' cures might be possible. I have an open mind.

[kekalot]

On 4/15/2019 at 10:44 AM, totally thaied up said:

I have seen God, touched God, tasted God when I have been mentally unwell. I have seen, heard and experienced things most would not believe when I have been manic and to this day, with all those mismatched chemicals running around in my brain, I cannot fathom the truth as it has seeemed to be all so real.

 

I was never religious but was about to quote endlessly from the Bible when manic. I saw mythical beings during the worst of my hallucinations.  I do not know the truth, I will never understand what happened to me, but if there is intelligent design out there, why only show it to people like myself that are sick and can just prove nothing from the experience. I really do not know the truth because it frightens me what I have seen, because if it is true, we are all at the mercy of intelligent design being known as God or something much greater. My doctors say my brain is a great manipulator and it is purely terrifying in what it can possible make in the realm of mania.

 

Like I said, it is very confusing what to believe. It would be comforting to know what I have seen is true and at times, I wish it was so.

I know I am quoting you from last month but here:

a lot of people who took heavy drugs talk about the same things..

 

if you stare at a mirror in the dark for long enough, you might start to see horrible things.. and its your mind being bored at is apparently called the Troxler Effect.

 

my ex girlfriend was heavily invested in religion, not simply catholic but it was hmm heavy on the bible and pushing stuff on people (don't try to guess the name, i was never able to find it and too lazy to ask her)

 

one day I was watching a video on Youtube about people taking Salvia (hallucinogen that makes you tripping balls for 5 minutes)

then read comments about people seeing the darnedest things such as that the world was folding onto them like you would fold paper nonstop.

 

one comment said that you usually saw things that scared you or stuff from your subconscious.

 

my ex girlfriend saw I watched those Salvia videos and asked me if we should try, I told her that she should absolutely never try something like this as it would probably scar her for life, she was scared of so many things, hell and whatnot (if she ate pork by mistake it would literally make her feel physically ill from worrying about not going to "heaven")

 

I don't think I would have seen much, myself to be honest but I never bothered getting it. (it's legal in America)

 

google: Gardening on Salvia

[Sunmaster]

3 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Never claimed it did, not even close. Here's the actual conclusion of the article... 

 

In sum then, though far from proven, as an explanation for what actually explains near-death experiences, the REM intrusion hypothesis has far more evidence to support it than does the idea that we actually do leave our bodies when death looms near.

My reply seems to have vanished so here goes again...

 

Hmm, not quite what I got from your comments.

You were indeed quite outspoken on the role of religion, and rightly so, but you were even more adamant that any belief in non scientific realities is pure nonsense, leaving no room for discussion. 

Quite a different picture from what you're claiming now.

If you like it or not, you possess a BS (belief system) just like anybody else. It's made up from partial truths like anyone else's and like anyone else's it deserves respect. I'm not talking about extremists, but normal people that don't impose their BS on others.

 

A healthy dose of skepticism is a very good thing, even for spiritual seekers, but don't let that skepticism become too rigid, because it will prevent you from learning and growing beyond your limitations. 

 

 

[sweatalot]

About God and spirituality it all boils down to experience.

 

This stuff is not something that can be proven objectivley.

But what you experience that's what you experience.

And this is your  proof. You do not need to prove it to anybody.

 

And that is truth. Your truth. (where is the law that says there is only one truth?)

And I mean experience. Not believing what others (or religions) tell you to believe.

 

You don't care what believers of any religion or of the "science religion" tell you. It does not touch you when they ridicule you. Because you know. And they don't. They are just one of those religions. The name of their god is: "there is no god except it can be proven objectively" They don't have headache - unless it is scientifically proven.

 

It is not about objectivity. It is about experience. Like our lives. You have no idea about God unless you find out who You are

Edited May 7, 2019 by sweatalot

[Sunmaster]

6 minutes ago, sweatalot said:

About God and spirituality it all boils down to experience.

 

This stuff is not something that can be proven objectivley.

But what you experience that's what you experience.

And this is your  proof. You do not need to prove it to anybody.

 

And that is truth. Your truth. (where is the law that says there is only one truth?)

And I mean experience. Not believing what others (or religions) tell you to believe.

 

You don't care what believers of any religion or of the "science religion" tell you. It does not touch you when they ridicule you. Because you know. And they don't. They are just one of those religions. The name of their god is: "there is no god except it can be proven objectively"

 

It is not about objectivity. It is about experience. Like our lives.

I agree 100% with this.

That's the difference between knowing and believing right there.