Do you believe in God and why

[Tagged]

19 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 

 

Try to imagine what the impression an ant, or a snake, or a fox would have when observing a bird or its nest, or even a very advanced alien creature visiting the Earth. ????

They will calculate how many ants to kill a bird, the risk negative and positive. Or just wait to one die and then get it. They do calculations all the time, but Im sure they have another way of doing it, and expression for it. Every animal need to be an engineer, accounter, and so much more, so I am quite surprised we only see human as intelligent being, even we credit some family apes, whales and dolphins as intelligents beings. 

 

We have to sto taking us self so seriously. If humans have souls, animals have souls to. If humans have consious, they have to, we are not above and exceptional in the nature, even we can make cars and airplanes. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Tagged

[VincentRJ]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How can a human define God? To even assume that one can is the utmost arrogance, IMO.

Can an amoeba define philosophy?

I know that "God" created life the universe and everything, but I would never claim to know what God is or understand God.

As they say, "God moves in mysterious ways".

 

I already gave you a definition. God is any Greater Power which is beyond the control of humanity. Am I arrogant to assume I have no control over a Greater Power? ????

 

Your second statement appears to be contradictory. You seem to be saying, "I know that 'what I don't know or understand' created life, the universe and everything", which is equivalent to simply saying, "I don't know who or how the universe and everything was created."

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Often, when we speak of God, we think of something external to us, not yet understood, not yet reached. Even when we believe God to be something within us, we still feel it to be distant, not yet realized...we just believe in its/our potential. This is were duality plays its tricks on us, positioning "us" VS "God" or the "God state/Enlightenment".

The "Self" as taught by Ramana Maharishi, is ever present, right here, right now and our true identity. According to him, there is no subject, no object, no enlightenment, no God...these are all products of the mind or the "I" as he calls it. Only the Self exists. His position is always a non-dualistic one.

Thanks for that. It's filled in a piece of the puzzle for me- I have shivers up my spine writing this, a clear sign of something spirituality significant for me.

I realise I have been externalising God, when I knew all along that God is as much in me as feelings are. I just didn't know that I knew.

 

Well done with that post.

[thaibeachlovers]

 

10 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

I already gave you a definition. God is any Greater Power which is beyond the control of humanity. Am I arrogant to assume I have no control over a Greater Power? ????

 

Your second statement appears to be contradictory. You seem to be saying, "I know that 'what I don't know or understand' created life, the universe and everything", which is equivalent to simply saying, "I don't know who or how the universe and everything was created."

God, IMO, is indefinable by humans. You can play with words all you want, but it doesn't change that.

BTW God created the power which is beyond the control of humanity ie nature.

 

You seem to be saying, "I know that 'what I don't know or understand' created life, the universe and everything"which is equivalent to simply saying, "I don't know who or how the universe and everything was created."

No, I said "I know that "God" created life the universe and everything, but I would never claim to know what God is or understand God".

Try taking what I say literally and stop trying to make it mean something else.

Edited November 6, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

God, IMO, is indefinable by humans. You can play with words all you want, but it doesn't change that.

BTW God created the power which is beyond the control of humanity ie nature.

 

You seem to be saying, "I know that 'what I don't know or understand' created life, the universe and everything"which is equivalent to simply saying, "I don't know who or how the universe and everything was created."

No, I said "I know that "God" created life the universe and everything, but I would never claim to know what God is or understand God".

Try taking what I say literally and stop trying to make it mean something else.

 

Surely you know by now that I'm a rational person who always tries to make sense of whatever I read. I'm not trying to make what you wrote mean something else. I'm simply trying to understand what you wrote.

 

I find it very puzzling that anyone could claim to believe in some entity that he knows nothing about. Christians and Muslims describe the characteristics of God in their scriptures, and therefore claim to know something about Him. On the other hand, Buddhists and Taoists are of the view that it is impossible to know anything about a Creator God, so they don't waste time trying to determine if there really is a God who created the entire universe. They understand it's 'unknowable', and therefore they don't believe in a Creator God. They think there are more important issues to address, such as how to end all forms of suffering.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to agree with the Buddhist concept, that God is unknowable, yet you claim to "know that "God" created life the universe and everything." As I said, that seems contradictory to me. Perhaps you can explain in more detail what you actually mean.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

 

Surely you know by now that I'm a rational person who always tries to make sense of whatever I read. I'm not trying to make what you wrote mean something else. I'm simply trying to understand what you wrote.

 

I find it very puzzling that anyone could claim to believe in some entity that he knows nothing about. Christians and Muslims describe the characteristics of God in their scriptures, and therefore claim to know something about Him. On the other hand, Buddhists and Taoists are of the view that it is impossible to know anything about a Creator God, so they don't waste time trying to determine if there really is a God who created the entire universe. They understand it's 'unknowable', and therefore they don't believe in a Creator God. They think there are more important issues to address, such as how to end all forms of suffering.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to agree with the Buddhist concept, that God is unknowable, yet you claim to "know that "God" created life the universe and everything." As I said, that seems contradictory to me. Perhaps you can explain in more detail what you actually mean.

OK. IMO life the universe and everything didn't just happen by chance. It's illogical, IMO to think that the horse head nebula just came out of nothing. When I'm in the country at night I often look at the stars and think that they go on light years beyond what I can see, and about all the planets and all the species living on them- more than I could count in a million lifetimes. No way all that just happened, IMO. Some force must have made it. Ergo, if something made it all, that something is God, but I have no idea what God looks like or God's motive etc. God, IMO, is as unknowable as the secret of making life, but then, if we knew the secret to making life we'd know God, would we not?

Religion has really tainted the discussion by ascribing human characteristics to the Divine, IMO. I doubt we have the imagination to begin to describe God.

[mauGR1]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

God, IMO, is as unknowable as the secret of making life, but then, if we knew the secret to making life we'd know God, would we not?

Yet, even if we cannot "know" God, or the supreme force, we are given plenty of tools to get closer to some degree.

Everyone can choose his favourite tools, and his favourite path, where is will, there is power.

[thaibeachlovers]

Isn't it nice posting on here without all those that don't want to discuss the OP?

Edited November 8, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[mauGR1]

On 11/8/2020 at 7:21 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Isn't it nice posting on here without all those that don't want to discuss the OP?

Perhaps some of them have been converted, and they are too busy worshipping some idols. Or they are frustrated because they can't prove the non-existence of God.

[Tagged]

I am allowed to say I start believe in a  god after Biden won? I cant say I prayed for him to win, but at least I hoped. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Tagged

[mauGR1]

7 minutes ago, Tagged said:

I am allowed to say I start believe in a  god after Biden won? I cant say I prayed for him to win, but at least I hoped. 

 In my humble opinion you are confusing God with the devil.

Interesting times indeed.

[Elad]

26 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Perhaps some of them have been converted, and they are too busy worshipping some idols. Or they are frustrated because they can't prove the non-existence of God.

Since it's not falsifiable then I'm afraid science can't address it. Similarly, we can't prove a teapot doesn't orbit the planet Jupiter, its very unlikely, but we can't prove its non-existence.    

[Tagged]

25 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

 In my humble opinion you are confusing God with the devil.

Interesting times indeed.

God in the Tora, bible and Quaran, does the killing in his name, hating the diversity, and punish people! The devil is all about the diversity, sex, drugs and rock'n roll

 

So I believe you are wrong

[luckyluke]

On 11/6/2020 at 4:26 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

 Our bodies are just biological machines to curry "us" around. Self continues after the body dies

Interesting, but concretely, bring this something to the individual?

Personally I don't see any relevance.

There may be, and I would be happy to know them.

 

 

 

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Tagged said:

God in the Tora, bible and Quaran, does the killing in his name, hating the diversity, and punish people! The devil is all about the diversity, sex, drugs and rock'n roll

 

So I believe you are wrong

And i think you trust mainstream media too much !

The apocalypse is coming, choose your side carefully !

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Elad said:

Since it's not falsifiable then I'm afraid science can't address it. Similarly, we can't prove a teapot doesn't orbit the planet Jupiter, its very unlikely, but we can't prove its non-existence.    

Actually i agree that " science can't address it" but you can't even blame God for that..

Perhaps check if there's something wrong with science ?

Just saying ????

[Tagged]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

 In my humble opinion you are confusing God with the devil.

Interesting times indeed.

Where did you take that from? You have some explanation to do! 

[quake]

1 hour ago, Elad said:

Since it's not falsifiable then I'm afraid science can't address it. Similarly, we can't prove a teapot doesn't orbit the planet Jupiter, its very unlikely, but we can't prove its non-existence.    

it's true.

 

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, quake said:

it's true.

 

I thought it orbited the sun, between the earth and Mars orbits.....pray to it every night. And it was definitely Victorian, that teapot looks far too modern.

[mauGR1]

15 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Where did you take that from? You have some explanation to do! 

I would be glad to hear your explanation too !

Yet, I don't think this is the right place to discuss American politics, so I'm not encouraging you down that path ????

Let's just say that i was surprised to hear your theory of God supporting one side or another, but I've not forgotten that some decades ago there was a man with a little moustache, claiming that God was on his side.

[Tagged]

10 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I would be glad to hear your explanation too !

Yet, I don't think this is the right place to discuss American politics, so I'm not encouraging you down that path ????

Let's just say that i was surprised to hear your theory of God supporting one side or another, but I've not forgotten that some decades ago there was a man with a little moustache, claiming that God was on his side.

Haha, oh, thats what you ment, okay, 

 

I was more curious about my statement about the books, god and the devil, if there was any doubt about who cares about diversity and who do not, and who like drugs and rockn roll, who do not. 

 

But you cant deny Trump did not try hard to please the lojal christians and jews. He tried

[Sunmaster]

17 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Interesting, but concretely, bring this something to the individual?

Personally I don't see any relevance.

There may be, and I would be happy to know them.

 

 

 

This is a good and legitimate question.

 

What changes in an individual when he realizes that he is not just a biological machine, but rather an eternal spark of the "God consciousness"?

 

Personally, I think it's the most important and defining realization in one's life, because you see yourself from a completely new perspective.  The anxiety about death and the uncertainty of one's place in the world fall away, giving you a peace of mind unlike you ever experienced before. As a young man I often had times where I would fall in depression and question everything. You just see the clouds, but not the sun behind them. The new perspective places you on top of a mountain, above the layer of clouds...where the sun is much more present.

The relationships one has with mother earth and with the people around you also change, because they are no longer seen as separated from you, but also part of something bigger. You see that the struggles you go through are their same struggles, regardless of color, beliefs and culture...and with that new understanding, you develop a deeper compassion. A compassion and forgiveness for their missteps, but also (and even more importantly) for your own mistakes.

So, the shift from the illusory "I" identification to a higher (more inclusive) perspective is not only beneficial for you personally, but for the evolution of the human race as a whole.
The shift rarely happens from one moment to another, but is rather a gradual learning process over the span of many, many lifetimes of trial and error.

When identified with the body, the individual searches for happiness in the impermanent objects of the world (money, fame, sexual pleasures...), which can take him to great heights, but inevitably bring him back down into periods of unhappiness. Once the individual starts to realize that he can not reach permanent happiness through these endeavors, he will start to look elsewhere. This search is called the "spiritual quest". The eternal consciousness acts like a magnet for the sparks of consciousness (us) and the outcome is the inevitable merging with this consciousness. How fast you can get "there" depends on your efforts and commitment. If one is content to live in a world where he is a slave to outside influences, bringing him to moments of fleeting happiness, alternated with moments of despair and long spells of boredom in between, than that's his choice and he shouldn't be judged for that. 
However, if one has decided that he wants to exit this vicious circle and find a permanent source of happiness, then he shouldn't be judged for that decision either.
 

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Haha, oh, thats what you ment, okay, 

 

I was more curious about my statement about the books, god and the devil, if there was any doubt about who cares about diversity and who do not, and who like drugs and rockn roll, who do not. 

 

But you cant deny Trump did not try hard to please the lojal christians and jews. He tried

Well, in various occasions we have discussed how religious books and theories have been used and manipulated by rulers with an agenda. I think everyone can agree with that, even if my perception of history could differ from yours.

As for the modern pop culture, there's something good and something bad about it, so personally I'd choose not to rush to judgement on either way.

" Sympathy for the devil" is a great, iconic song ☺

[Tagged]

17 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, in various occasions we have discussed how religious books and theories have been used and manipulated by rulers with an agenda. I think everyone can agree with that, even if my perception of history could differ from yours.

As for the modern pop culture, there's something good and something bad about it, so personally I'd choose not to rush to judgement on either way.

" Sympathy for the devil" is a great, iconic song ☺

Still the books represent at least half of the populations cultures for good and bad, and I am also sure if Jesus and Buddha came back today, they would be furious, but not so sure about god, if he came back. 

 

Mohammed was more Ying Yang for sure, he got it all.

 

 Jesus just is a person of flesh and blood, and god son like all of us is, but with talents most of us do not have. 

 

When it comes to the Tora, it is black and white written on paper, and parts of the old testament is almost a blue copy, same as Quaran is. Same family business. Yes it have been abused, but still,,,,,, you can not deny that almost half of the populations cultures is formed by it. Then as you and more saying, it have to be something about it. How can so many be wrong? 

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Still the books represent at least half of the populations cultures for good and bad, and I am also sure if Jesus and Buddha came back today, they would be furious, but not so sure about god, if he came back. 

 

Mohammed was more Ying Yang for sure, he got it all.

 

 Jesus just is a person of flesh and blood, and god son like all of us is, but with talents most of us do not have. 

 

When it comes to the Tora, it is black and white written on paper, and parts of the old testament is almost a blue copy, same as Quaran is. Same family business. Yes it have been abused, but still,,,,,, you can not deny that almost half of the populations cultures is formed by it. Then as you and more saying, it have to be something about it. How can so many be wrong? 

I tend to agree with most of your post, and there's no denial that all our culture has been deeply influenced by holy books.

However, i choose to save what i think is useful, and leave out the parts which i don't like.

Although i try to understand the mind dynamics of the religious fanatics, I'm definitely not one of them.

As Jesus used to say, the religion is made for the man, not the man for the religion.

[luckyluke]

20 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

What changes in an individual when he realizes that he is not just a biological machine, but rather an eternal spark of the "God consciousness"?

Primal condition is of course believing in a " God consciousness ", and that the individual is a biological machine.

For those, I suppose your post make sense.

I am 72, not afraid of death, in fact more and more curious about what" afterlife "is;

having finally  the answer to many questions, not the countless speculations  going around.

Of course I also take in consideration there may be absolutely nothing, and death being the end of everything.

 

 

[Sunmaster]

Just now, luckyluke said:

Primal condition is of course believing in a " God consciousness ", and that the individual is a biological machine.

For those, I suppose your post make sense.

I am 72, not afraid of death, in fact more and more curious about what" afterlife "is;

having finally  the answer to many questions, not the countless speculations  going around.

Of course I also take in consideration there may be absolutely nothing, and death being the end of everything.

 

 

I think "believing" in something different from the materialistic worldview is just the first step. It means you're looking for something different and are curious. The next step would be to find  adequate sources to satisfy that curiosity, verify them for yourself and thus take you from "believing" to "knowing". I think believing alone is not enough to bring true change, but it can be a stepping stone.

[luckyluke]

2 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

The next step would be to find  adequate sources to satisfy that curiosity, verify them for yourself and thus take you from "believing" to "knowing".

For me, impossible, I don't believe in particularly adequate sources, for me there are only hypotheses.

Of course those hypotheses may be considering by some as truths.

I have no problem with those who believe they know, except when they try to convince me that their sources are the only correct one.

In fact they may be right when they claim they know,

 just like the others with different "adequate sources" and "knowing's" may be right as well.

Hence the hope that after death I will finally know for sure.

[mauGR1]

25 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

think believing alone is not enough to bring true change, but it can be a stepping stone.

Not willing to criticize your priorities, but just speaking for myself, i think that "believing" is an essential condition which is required for any task or effort.

So, necessary for a start, but more than a stepping stone imho.

[Sunmaster]

18 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Not willing to criticize your priorities, but just speaking for myself, i think that "believing" is an essential condition which is required for any task or effort.

So, necessary for a start, but more than a stepping stone imho.

Maybe....I was thinking out loud, so to speak.
In my case (and I don't think I'm the only one), I didn't believe in any higher power, so I don't regard it as essential.