Do you believe in God and why

[Surelynot]

28 minutes ago, covidiot said:

I've seen God referred to as "Great Mystery" in American Native Indian literature.

Many things are a great mystery to Americans........empathy, sympathy, humility..........

[covidiot]

6 hours ago, iLuvThai said:

The Man Jesus and his story is inexhaustible, and continues to attract the minds and imaginations of the pious and the not So pious

Jesus seemed like a pretty cool dude. Assuming half of the quotes attributed to him are actually real. But one drawback is that he's not alive today.

 

Is threatening people to "believe or else" a good thing?

 

You only have ONE saviour? That's a shame. Why limit yourself? I have amassed thousands of bits of wisdom from many people Jesus-Christ type characters over the years. 

 

One example is Van The Man Morisson, who reminds me to "fight every day to keep mediocrity at bay". This inspires me to try to make my life interesting. 

 

The best "religion" is piece-meal and doesn't have to come from "holy" texts. 

 

 

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

17 hours ago, Surelynot said:

Shopping can be fun....

You make some flippant comments on this topic but I think the issue of 'sin' is pertinent.

 

You could define religion as dealing with the unknowables of the time. As others pointed out scientists and others have struggled to explain physics and chemistry and medicine over the centuries. Religions took a position that has been found to be incorrect. 

Living with volcanoes and disease etc would have been hard to take and religion brought comfort. It was also  a way to scare the masses into paying up and being obedient.

 

So what's left. Morality is one thing. Paying girls for services, gambling and drugs are all things that can bring a good man down. It could simply be that they are too intoxicating and humans lose control.  There is something unknowable still about human emotions of love, lust, the desire to please etc - psychiatry is still limited. 

 

 Why do some people avoid paying for services with girls  like this. Pride. Lack of courage. Or a sense that they will lose something - part of their heart and soul. You could argue that even if men do not walk into a bar and pay they usually pay in any case. 

Religion may have failed when it comes to the formal sciences but still may have a role in dealing with the remaining unknowables - telling us that we are not as strong as we like to think we are and that we should consider that in relation to certain vices. Calling such indulgences 'sin' in gods eyes, is a cop out in my opinion, but the fact that humans need to think twice before indulging in vices, and need help along the way, is a good message. You don't need religion or spirituality to come to this conclusion but it can help some have a better life. 

 

The result can be that many christians and the spiritual do lead good lives, help charities, are part of the community, and such. Other's don't. There could be something good in the message though. 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, ravip said:

Would the belief in God make a human a better being?

Obviously not, given the atrocities carried out by those professing to believe.

 

However, IMO the whole "be good and go to heaven, be bad and be dammed"  is a product of religion, and as such ignored by myself.

 

Many posters have asked why God allows such horrors to occur, but have they considered that it as well that God is not intervening in the affairs of man. IMO if God had the human emotions of caring and love, God would exterminate humans as being too flawed to be allowed to continue their destruction on a beautiful planet.

Consider that there is enough food on earth to feed every person, water could be purified to drink so people don't die in the thousands of bad water. So, why are some living in $10,000 a week apartments in New York while small children are blown to bits in conflicts that are the product of hate and greed, and hundreds of thousands starve and die of preventable diseases?

The answer is simple, some people, despite having the ability to resolve conflicts and un necessary deaths don't want to for greed and love of power etc.

By our deeds is humanity known and we have failed to be humane, we have failed to care, we have failed to be good.

 

So, debate all you like about the existence or otherwise of God, but in the end it's not going to make an iota of difference to my belief

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Paying girls for services, gambling and drugs are all things that can bring a good man down.

Interesting that you bring those up and ignore the far worse crimes of hatred, greed and warmaking. Does a good man keep billions in the bank, while children starve for want of a $ for food? Not for nothing did the Christ teach that it is difficult for a rich man to enter heaven.

There is nothing inherently evil about paying for sex, gambling, or using drugs. It is what people do with such that can be wrong eg stealing to buy drugs, sexual slavery or impoverishing a family to gamble.

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, Surelynot said:

Many things are a great mystery to Americans........empathy, sympathy, humility..........

That's pretty universal, so why pick on Americans?

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, covidiot said:

Is threatening people to "believe or else" a good thing?

The Christ never threatened anyone ( though he did get a bit exercised about the money changers ). He recognised that people had to come to God through choice, which is why he made the point about how God knows men for what they are, and not what they do in public.

One can do good works in public, but if one has an evil heart it is not going to help go to heaven.

[thaibeachlovers]

I just noticed that we have hit the 400 page mark.

Well done us. Can we make it 500?

Surely this has to be the longest thread ever on TVF.

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The Christ never threatened anyone ( though he did get a bit exercised about the money changers ). He recognised that people had to come to God through choice, which is why he made the point about how God knows men for what they are, and not what they do in public.

One can do good works in public, but if one has an evil heart it is not going to help go to heaven.

In fact i get a bit upset when some self-proclaimed Christians talk about "eternal damnation".

That's a distortion of the truth imho, everyone deserves a 2and or a 3rd chance.

Rule by fear belongs to the worst dictatorships on earth, but not to the higher realms.

Very often, in the life of ordinary folks, the greatest spiritual developments happen after experiencing hardships, or having done big mistakes, or sins against other living beings.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Interesting that you bring those up and ignore the far worse crimes of hatred, greed and warmaking. Does a good man keep billions in the bank, while children starve for want of a $ for food? Not for nothing did the Christ teach that it is difficult for a rich man to enter heaven.

There is nothing inherently evil about paying for sex, gambling, or using drugs. It is what people do with such that can be wrong eg stealing to buy drugs, sexual slavery or impoverishing a family to gamble.

I wasn't looking at them as being  criminal  but being things that can possibly hurt us. 

 

He put the picture in a discussion of god which I thought was cheeky so I thought I could point out the obvious being that that religion has something to say about certain vices - and some will benefit by what they say. 

 

Religious figures might argue that for girls of the night, drugs, and gambling the pleasure will be fleeting and can lead to confusion and to a bad path. For some I think it's true. 

 

That doesn't mean these things are necessarily inherently bad or that some people can't partake with no ill effect. We all know people who can partake in some of these activities and seem unchanged. We also know people  though who can be affected adversely if they partake in these in an indulgent manner. Some will be affected, maybe for ever,  even after a little bit due to their personality.

 

Know thyself. Religion and spirituality can make us more aware of ourselves - strengths and weaknesses - and can help us move forward and can point out potential traps along the way.

 

Drugs and gambling are more clear cut. The issue of ladies of the night is an interesting one and I suppose it's up to each person to decide what is best. 

 

 

[covidiot]

speaking of ladies of the night ... there is an american guy who went to japan and became a buddhist monk. he wrote several books, including one called "Sex and Sin". religions treat sex in a very simplistic way. i was amazed to discover that buddhist monks have addressed the topic in a much more mature fashion. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Sin-and-Zen-Brad-Warner-audiobook/dp/B078MSM64D/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Brad+Warner&qid=1621937176&sr=8-6

 

[ravip]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I just noticed that we have hit the 400 page mark.

Well done us. Can we make it 500?

Surely this has to be the longest thread ever on TVF.

Thank God for that and let's  pray to hit 500.

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, ravip said:

Thank God for that and let's  pray to hit 500.

What happened ?

Have you become a believer ? ????

[ravip]

25 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

What happened ?

Have you become a believer ? ????

Trying my best to recover my lost belief. ????

[covidiot]

every time someone posts in this thread, an angel gets its wings.

 

[mauGR1]

2 hours ago, covidiot said:

speaking of ladies of the night ... there is an american guy who went to japan and became a buddhist monk. he wrote several books, including one called "Sex and Sin". religions treat sex in a very simplistic way. i was amazed to discover that buddhist monks have addressed the topic in a much more mature fashion. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Sin-and-Zen-Brad-Warner-audiobook/dp/B078MSM64D/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Brad+Warner&qid=1621937176&sr=8-6

 

I'm not watching videos,  and I would encourage you to say what you think with your own words, that way is more interesting imho..

But i think i know where you're going to, and I tend to agree.

It's obvious,  if we look at history,  that rulers have distorted and adapted the words of Jesus and other great thinkers with the aim of controlling the masses. 

I don't have any strong opinion about sex, as the points of view can differ a lot, but it's always interesting to compare our being ordinary humans to what the officialdom says it's right.

[covidiot]

17 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I'm not watching videos

it was a link to a book ... 

my point was that mainstream religions have over-simplified and distorted the whole concept of "sex and sin". and that book is an example where the discussion is more complex. 

and i agree with your points in the last post.

[covidiot]

we have a member on here with a spock avatar. 

what's the link between star trek and god?

we will be dead, but maybe in a couple hundred years that star trek stuff won't be so far-fetched. we'll venture into other parts of the galaxy and maybe then we will discover our origins? 

 

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, covidiot said:

it was a link to a book ... 

my point was that mainstream religions have over-simplified and distorted the whole concept of "sex and sin". and that book is an example where the discussion is more complex. 

and i agree with your points in the last post.

Thanks for the clarification, and we are in complete agreement. 

Sex, but also many other human interactions are so complex that a 1000 big books wouldn't be enough to explore all their nuances.

I read many years ago a book, "the island" by A.Huxley , where he predicted a future society where the concept of "family " and " marriage" will lose its meaning,  and the children will be raised by small groups according to their affinities. 

Perhaps this is the "universal brotherhood " which was recommended by Jesus himself.

Despite being in disagreement with too strong and sudden social engineerings, it's undeniable that spiritual evolution can bring some re-shaping of the society. 

[Sunmaster]

23 minutes ago, covidiot said:

we have a member on here with a spock avatar. 

what's the link between star trek and god?

we will be dead, but maybe in a couple hundred years that star trek stuff won't be so far-fetched. we'll venture into other parts of the galaxy and maybe then we will discover our origins? 

 

Must be talking about me. ????

Star Trek represents a future which I like very much. A future were material possessions cease to possess people, were resources are equally distributed and were the highest human ideals become reality. 

The link between Star Trek and "God" (I prefer to use "Higher Power" or "Cosmic Consciousness")? Hmm, well....ST has dealt with many forms of consciousness, some embodied, others disembodied; with societies on a wide range of evolutionary levels, some primitive, others very evolved; and the questions about spirituality were also addressed repeatedly. 
One might say it's just a TV show, but I think it's much more than that. It often tackles difficult moral and philosophical questions, without being preachy or dogmatic in its approach.

I long for such a society, were science and spirituality finally come together and join forces in the pursuit of truth.


Live long and prosper

[covidiot]

2 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

A future were material possessions cease to possess people

There was actually an article about "Trekonomics" in the media during the pandemic. I'm a geek so I pick up on these things. 

 

I believe they are directing us in this direction ... I believe capitalism as we know it is dying ... and I think it's a positive thing. 

In Star Trek, people don't work for money. They work for higher ideals. 

If you watch some Ted Talks on Youtube, you will find topics such as "de-monetization". ie things will get cheaper ... and amassing wealth will not be the driving force for people ... 

 

[covidiot]

44 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

A.Huxley , where he predicted a future society where the concept of "family " and " marriage" will lose its meaning,  and the children will be raised by small groups according to their affinities. 

Perhaps this is the "universal brotherhood " which was recommended by Jesus himself.

Well, I wasn't gonna go down this rabbit hole but since you brought it up ... 

 

Remember how the Mayans predicted 2012 was going to be the end of the world? Hollywood made a film about it ... 2012. But maybe 2020 is the real date. Maybe this is end of the world as we know it. And the beginning of a new era. 

 

Some people refer to it as the "age of aquarius" ... and concepts that you mention in your post are consistent with themes that various people predict will be prevalant during this period. 

In other words, I think your comments are valid. 

 

 

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, covidiot said:

Well, I wasn't gonna go down this rabbit hole but since you brought it up ... 

 

Remember how the Mayans predicted 2012 was going to be the end of the world? Hollywood made a film about it ... 2012. But maybe 2020 is the real date. Maybe this is end of the world as we know it. And the beginning of a new era. 

 

Some people refer to it as the "age of aquarius" ... and concepts that you mention in your post are consistent with themes that various people predict will be prevalant during this period. 

In other words, I think your comments are valid. 

 

 

Well, from your rather optimistic tone, i would guess that you're younger than me ????

While i think that we are in "kali yuga" or era of destruction,  and a golden era will follow again, i think that process will be gradual, and we'll have to pass a lot of troubled water in the next years...or centuries. 

Dark forces are at full power, but at the same time spiritual consciousness is growing faster and faster.

Interesting times ahead, to say it mildly.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Religious figures might argue that for girls of the night, drugs, and gambling the pleasure will be fleeting and can lead to confusion and to a bad path. For some I think it's true. 

IMO leaders of some religions don't like people having fun, so they proscribe anything that they can't control, IMO. IMO they especially dislike anything to do with sex other than for purposes of breeding future cash cows parishioners.

The people that thought it a good idea to prevent priests having sex must be barking IMO. The results of such a stupid policy are well known by the victims.

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, covidiot said:

I believe capitalism as we know it is dying ... and I think it's a positive thing. 

I would welcome the end of capitalism, but for the fact that no alternative that I know of has ever benefited the common man.

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO leaders of some religions don't like people having fun, so they proscribe anything that they can't control, IMO. IMO they especially dislike anything to do with sex other than for purposes of breeding future cash cows parishioners.

The people that thought it a good idea to prevent priests having sex must be barking IMO. The results of such a stupid policy are well known by the victims.

That's a point of view,  and i appreciate it, but if you look at the ads and at the official narrative, sex is everywhere,  more or less explicitly. It's almost as if they try to convince the people that if one doesn't have a lot of sex, life is useless. 

Imho, this subject is so complex that it would deserve its own thread. 

A personal memory, the best priest I've ever talked to, who use to come to ski with us kids or winter Sundays, fell in love with a girl  and suddenly disappeared. 

[thaibeachlovers]

58 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

That's a point of view,  and i appreciate it, but if you look at the ads and at the official narrative, sex is everywhere,  more or less explicitly. It's almost as if they try to convince the people that if one doesn't have a lot of sex, life is useless. 

Imho, this subject is so complex that it would deserve its own thread. 

A personal memory, the best priest I've ever talked to, who use to come to ski with us kids or winter Sundays, fell in love with a girl  and suddenly disappeared. 

It's actually quite simple- reproduction is genetically programmed into every living thing on the planet, ergo humans are programmed to have sex, and men are programmed to have as much sex with as many woman as possible. Such is the circle of life.

By forbidding priests to have sex, they are being told to go against nature, with the inevitable awful consequences that brings. Good on that priest.

 

Long ago, I was employed on an Antarctic base with over 60 men and two women working in it for the summer ( some bureaucrat thought that was a good idea ). Too say they were popular was an understatement. Only men wintered over, which was just as well.

Nowadays of course there are a lot of women working down there, so things may be more "normal".

[Sunmaster]

It's interesting to note that the abstinence from sex for novice monks/spiritual practitioners was originally not a moral issue, but simply an energetic one. The human body is like a self charging battery. It charges faster when we are young and when getting older, the charging cycles take longer and longer....until it no longer charges up and we all know how that ends.

Ejaculation is an act of great energy consumption. Just imagine how much life force is concentrated in a few ml of sperm!
So, the novices were taught to refrain from ejaculating AND taught how to redirect that energy for other (higher) purposes.

With time though (at least for Christian religions), the requirement for abstinence lost its deeper meaning and only the rule was left. That's why it's so difficult for priests to remain abstinent. There is a huge energy imbalance building up inside, which if not channeled properly or released, leads to all sort of problems, the worst among priests being child abuse. 
But they don't know how to because they were never taught. They were simply told "Don't have sex, because it's a sin".

[mauGR1]

Various times in this thread, the ancient symbol of Tao has been debated.

Today i came across a quote from a master which I deeply revere,  R.Steiner. 

Hope it's of some interest for someone. 

 

"

On TAO……quotation from Rudolf Steiner in a lecture 1905 

 

“The TAO gives expression to the highest to which a large part of humanity can look up and has revered for thousands of years. It is something which was considered as a distant goal of the world and of humanity, the highest element which man carried as a germ within him, which would one day develop into a fully opened blossom from the innermost depths of human nature. TAO signifies both a deeply hidden basis of the soul and at the same time an exalted future. 

Not only the name TAO, but the very thought of TAO filled those who had insight into it with timid reverence. The TAO spirituality is based on the principle of development, and it proclaims: That by which I am surrounded today is but a stage which has to be overcome. I must clearly see that this development in which I am involved has a Goal, that I am going to work towards an exalted Goal and that within me there lives a power which spurs me on to come to the Great Goal of TAO. 

If I can feel this great force within me and if I can feel that all creatures are aiming towards this great goal, then this force becomes the guiding force rushing towards me in the wind, sounding out of the stones, flashing in the lightning, rumbling in the thunder, sending its light to me from the sun. In the plant it is revealed as the force of growth, in the animal as feeling and perception. 

It is the force which will continually create form after form for every exalted aim, through which I know myself to be at one with the whole of nature, which flows out from me and into me with every breath I take, the symbol for the highest evolving spirit which I experience as life itself. I feel this force as TAO."

[Ladidaa]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Various times in this thread, the ancient symbol of Tao has been debated.

Today i came across a quote from a master which I deeply revere,  R.Steiner. 

Hope it's of some interest for someone. 

 

"

On TAO……quotation from Rudolf Steiner in a lecture 1905 

 

“The TAO gives expression to the highest to which a large part of humanity can look up and has revered for thousands of years. It is something which was considered as a distant goal of the world and of humanity, the highest element which man carried as a germ within him, which would one day develop into a fully opened blossom from the innermost depths of human nature. TAO signifies both a deeply hidden basis of the soul and at the same time an exalted future. 

Not only the name TAO, but the very thought of TAO filled those who had insight into it with timid reverence. The TAO spirituality is based on the principle of development, and it proclaims: That by which I am surrounded today is but a stage which has to be overcome. I must clearly see that this development in which I am involved has a Goal, that I am going to work towards an exalted Goal and that within me there lives a power which spurs me on to come to the Great Goal of TAO. 

If I can feel this great force within me and if I can feel that all creatures are aiming towards this great goal, then this force becomes the guiding force rushing towards me in the wind, sounding out of the stones, flashing in the lightning, rumbling in the thunder, sending its light to me from the sun. In the plant it is revealed as the force of growth, in the animal as feeling and perception. 

It is the force which will continually create form after form for every exalted aim, through which I know myself to be at one with the whole of nature, which flows out from me and into me with every breath I take, the symbol for the highest evolving spirit which I experience as life itself. I feel this force as TAO."

 

Beautifully put.