Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

11 minutes ago, mikebike said:

God

/ɡäd/

noun

1. 1.

   (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

    
2. 2.

   (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

    

    

   spir·it·u·al·i·ty

   /ˌspiriCHo͞oˈalədē/

   noun

   1. the quality of being concerned with the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

Ok, so spirituality includes the believe in God but is not restricted to that.

Correct?

[Sunmaster]

16 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Please see definitions above. I could add mystisism but not really necessary.

 

A mystical experience can be a religious experience, but doesn't have to be.

A spiritual experience can be a mystical experience, but doesn't have to be. 

A religious experience is likely to be both mystical and spiritual in nature.

 

Or...all mystical experiences are spiritual, some of them can be religious. 

 

Correct?

[mikebike]

On 7/3/2021 at 8:15 PM, Sunmaster said:

Serious answer: yes, I have. And I shared the experience on this thread.

I have as well. Not through the route of meditation.

 

I am a multi-generational atheist.

 

In no way did the experiences indicate the existence of God as academics understand the definition.

 

The possible existance of a underlying connectivity in the universe is an interesting concept and one worth scientific exploration.

 

Such a connectivity, if proven, would not necessitate the existence of God, nor would it necessitate a spirituality separate and distinct from the physical world.

 

It seems a few posters have a difficulty in just saying "we don't have the capacity to know, at this time". Prescribing spiritual answers to questions we cannot currently answer certainly takes us back a couple of millennium...

[mikebike]

14 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Ok, so spirituality includes the believe in God but is not restricted to that.

Correct?

NO. God is a diety. Spirituality is the concern about human spirit over the material. Not even in the same ballpark.

[mikebike]

12 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

A mystical experience can be a religious experience, but doesn't have to be.

A spiritual experience can be a mystical experience, but doesn't have to be. 

A religious experience is likely to be both mystical and spiritual in nature.

 

Or...all mystical experiences are spiritual, some of them can be religious. 

 

Correct?

Please. In order to debate we really must use the academically agreed upon definitions. Not whatever suits the conversation.

[Sunmaster]

1 minute ago, mikebike said:

I have as well. Not through the route of meditation.

 

I am a multi-generational atheist.

 

In no way did the experiences indicate the existence of God as academics understand the definition.

 

The possible existance of a underlying connectivity in the universe is an interesting concept and one worth scientific exploration.

 

Such a connectivity, if proven, would not necessitate the existence of God, nor would it necessitate a spirituality separate and distinct from the physical world.

 

It seems a few posters have a difficulty in just saying "we don't have the capacity to know, at this time". Prescribing spiritual answers to questions we cannot currently answer certainly takes us back a couple of millennium...

I didn't experience it through meditation either, and up to that point I considered myself an atheist too.

I don't know what your experience was like, but mine was so "strong" that denying the existence of a benevolent cosmic consciousness was simply impossible from then on. That's why I started researching everything about this subject. I needed to learn what it was that changed my life so dramatically. 

 

The word God can mean different things for different people. I usually try to avoid it and prefer speaking in terms of consciousness, which is not so ripe with emotional baggage. 

 

The connectivity you speak of is sure an interesting topic. 

 

Not sure what you mean by your last paragraph or whom you're referring to.

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Prescribing spiritual answers to questions we cannot currently answer certainly takes us back a couple of millennium...

Your post is agreeable apart from your last paragraph. 

Well, unless you are advocating for thought control, you should let people think what they want to think.

If the investigation of spiritual worlds is useless for you,  just feel free to ignore it.

[Sunmaster]

11 minutes ago, mikebike said:

NO. God is a diety. Spirituality is the concern about human spirit over the material. Not even in the same ballpark.

I'm sorry, but doesn't the belief in God include a concern about the human spirit over the material?? 

How is that not related?

[Sunmaster]

38 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Such a connectivity, if proven, would not necessitate the existence of God, nor would it necessitate a spirituality separate and distinct from the physical world.

 

This needs responding to.

 

God is just a concept, a word that describes the indescribable. If such connectivity indeed exists, which I'm certain of, you can call it God or Brahman or Cosmic Consciousness. It wouldn't matter one bit.

 

True spirituality is not distinct from or in opposition to the material world.

Spirituality complements the material world. It includes the material world but goes further to include the non-material world also.

 

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, mikebike said:

Please. In order to debate we really must use the academically agreed upon definitions. Not whatever suits the conversation.

EXACTLY what I've been burdened with for more than 2 years. 

[mauGR1]

24 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

EXACTLY what I've been burdened with for more than 2

Troll ????

[Sunmaster]

31 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

EXACTLY what I've been burdened with for more than 2 years. 

Poor victim...he was forced to be here for 2 years against his will. 5555

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Troll ????

That's all you've got when presented with reality. Sad. 

[Skeptic7]

58 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Poor victim...he was forced to be here for 2 years against his will. 5555

Not a victim at all. The enforcer. Up against a wall of ignorance and denial. I'll be keeping it real as long as ignorance resides here. 555 Cheers Sunshade. 

[Sunmaster]

6 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Not a victim at all. The enforcer. Up against a wall of ignorance and denial. I'll be keeping it real as long as ignorance resides here. 555 Cheers Sunshade. 

You are something, aren't you. LoL
All you did in the past 2 years was saying "It's all mumbo jumbo" and "Show me evidence"...over and over again, without adding anything, and I mean ANYTHING of substance.

 

When invited to reply on anything, you either quietly disappear, launch an ad hominem attack or throw a temper tantrum. So much for educating anyone LMFAO
At least I get my daily dose of laughs....keep em coming Sleepstic 

[Skeptic7]

15 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

You are something, aren't you. LoL
All you did in the past 2 years was saying "It's all mumbo jumbo" and "Show me evidence"...over and over again, without adding anything, and I mean ANYTHING of substance.

 

When invited to reply on anything, you either quietly disappear, launch an ad hominem attack or throw a temper tantrum. So much for educating anyone LMFAO
At least I get my daily dose of laughs....keep em coming Sleepstic 

No prob bro. Will do! Got my owl eyes on reason & reality. Been keeping this thread from going totally off the rails in a crazy train. Your 'temper tantrum' diversion is a hoot! Thought u had a bit more game than the 2 whole others remaining on your team, but that bar is set low, and apparently was wrong. 'Night Sundown. 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, mikebike said:

Please. In order to debate we really must use the academically agreed upon definitions. Not whatever suits the conversation.

Actually WE don't have to agree to your terms at all. WE are not your hostages and our beliefs are not dependent on your agreement.

Certainly for myself, and perhaps for the others, I have presented my experience of the creator and whether others believe it or not is irrelevant to my spirituality.

One side saying a thousand times that God doesn't exist isn't going to convert any believer, and whether us saying that God exists probably isn't going to convert any non believer, but I was never on here to convert anyone anyway.

The OP is probably quite happy for the "debate" to continue to amass a record number of pages for his thread.

[Sunmaster]

8 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

No prob bro. Will do! Got my owl eyes on reason & reality. Been keeping this thread from going totally off the rails in a crazy train. Your 'temper tantrum' diversion is a hoot! Thought u had a bit more game than the 2 whole others remaining on your team, but that bar is set low, and apparently was wrong. 'Night Sundown. 

Well, one must at least keep up the illusion of being good for something...wish you good luck with that. 
Let me know when you actually want to discuss religion, science or spirituality...I'm game.
Night Night Septic

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, mikebike said:

It seems a few posters have a difficulty in just saying "we don't have the capacity to know, at this time".

?????????????????

You made that up, didn't you? I have personally said that god is unprovable by primitive human science a few times, and while I can't quote them, I do recollect posts by others to that effect.

[mauGR1]

13 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

?????????????????

You made that up, didn't you? I have personally said that god is unprovable by primitive human science a few times, and while I can't quote them, I do recollect posts by others to that effect.

It's kind of ironic that the narrow minded are accusing the open minded of being narrow minded.

How some people are easily brainwashed,  i can hardly believe it.

[canthai55]

Does dropping Acid count ?

[Sunmaster]

19 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

Does dropping Acid count ?

Count for what?

[canthai55]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

Count for what?

Seeing God

[canthai55]

There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'

C. S. Lewis

[Sunmaster]

39 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

Seeing God

It's a well known fact that hallucinogenic substances can produce spiritual experiences, and in no way does it diminish the experience itself (if that's what you were alluding to).
Shamans all over the world have been taking mushrooms, cacti (San Pedro, Peyote), Ayahuasca and other substances for millennia to facilitate the connection to the spirit world. 
What you experience during such a journey depends on a lot of things...culture, beliefs, expectations, the personal psychological and emotional wellbeing and the place/setting.
 

[cleopatra2]

21 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

It's a well known fact that hallucinogenic substances can produce spiritual experiences, and in no way does it diminish the experience itself (if that's what you were alluding to).
Shamans all over the world have been taking mushrooms, cacti (San Pedro, Peyote), Ayahuasca and other substances for millennia to facilitate the connection to the spirit world. 
What you experience during such a journey depends on a lot of things...culture, beliefs, expectations, the personal psychological and emotional wellbeing and the place/setting.
 

If you are going to use hallucinogenic substances to provide evidence of spiritual world, then this would lead to a possible conclusion that the spiritual world exist in the brain. Such substances invoke brain synaptic activity. Each spirit world would be unique to the individual. 

The next question to arise , how would this be different from dreaming.

If not, where does the spirt world exist and what test or question can be asked to promote its existence.

[canthai55]

Well - I saw him, and his alter ego. Ah - to be 14 again

555

[Sunmaster]

 

3 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

If you are going to use hallucinogenic substances to provide evidence of spiritual world, then this would lead to a possible conclusion that the spiritual world exist in the brain. Such substances invoke brain synaptic activity. Each spirit world would be unique to the individual. 

 

That's an interesting question and I'll try to answer it the best I can.

Hallucinogenic substances work like keys. They open up states of consciousness that would normally not be accessible, other than by regular meditation for example. They open the door but are not responsible for what you experience on the other side of that door. That is dependent on many factors and is very unique to the individual. This doesn't mean that these unique experiences don't have common characteristics though. I listed these characteristics a few pages back (page 414). The brain doesn't create the spiritual experience just like your radio doesn't create the music you hear, or this website is not created by your computer.

I remember a story by Ram Das, who was a pioneer of the LSD movement in the US in the 60s and later became a spiritual teacher. During one of his visits to India, he gave a high dose of LSD (over 300 micrograms) to his guru. While anyone else would have tripped his brains out for days, the guru simply smiled and carried on as usual.

The difference is that when a normal person opens that door, he may not be ready for what he finds, while an advanced meditator has arrived there by regular practice and knows all the pitfalls and dangers. The former will have no map (or a highly incomplete one) to guide him through the inner landscape, the latter can rely on the map he received from his teacher and add his own through practice and personal experience. It's like attempting a triple backflip somersault without any training. It might go well, but you might break your neck too. 
 

3 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

The next question to arise , how would this be different from dreaming.

 

The dreaming state and the "spiritual" state are both states of consciousness, but are on different wavelengths so to speak. 
When we dream, we have no control over the dream story (unless you can lucid dream, but that's another story). The elements of the dreamscape are provided by our memories, our fears and hopes and whether we had cheese for dinner or not. 55 The spiritual state on the other hand, is reached in full awareness. 
What you experiences during a dream may frighten you or make you happy while the dream lasts, but once you awaken, they are soon forgotten. What you experience in the spiritual state however, will stay with you for a long time, sometimes a lifetime and will have a lasting effect on the way you perceive yourself and the world.
 

3 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

If not, where does the spirt world exist and what test or question can be asked to promote its existence.

The spirit world is not separate from our material world, just like radio waves are not separate in the air from ultraviolet waves, or just like salt is not separate in your soup. It coexists with the material world. That's why all the great teachers say that there is no point in trying to find enlightenment, because we are already enlightened. 
This means that the spiritual state is present at any moment, in every place.

So, why are we not all already enlightened? What is holding us back?
The main obstacle is the ego. The ego is a construct with which we learn to identify as children. It gives us the illusion that we are separate entities and as long as we believe this to be true, we won't be able to access the higher states of consciousness. That is exactly the goal of any form of meditation or spiritual practice: to dis-identify with the ego in order to discover what lies behind it. Think about it...what was there before you developed your sense of "I-ness"? 

What question can be asked to promote your awareness of it?
According to Ramana Maharshi, one of the greatest sages of all time, we should incessantly ask ourselves "Who am I?". The question is not really meant to get a rational answer, but is meant to dissolve the questioner (ego). It is meant to direct you to the source of "I".

[cleopatra2]

35 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

 

That's an interesting question and I'll try to answer it the best I can.

Hallucinogenic substances work like keys. They open up states of consciousness that would normally not be accessible, other than by regular meditation for example. They open the door but are not responsible for what you experience on the other side of that door. That is dependent on many factors and is very unique to the individual. This doesn't mean that these unique experiences don't have common characteristics though. I listed these characteristics a few pages back (page 414). The brain doesn't create the spiritual experience just like your radio doesn't create the music you hear, or this website is not created by your computer.

I remember a story by Ram Das, who was a pioneer of the LSD movement in the US in the 60s and later became a spiritual teacher. During one of his visits to India, he gave a high dose of LSD (over 300 micrograms) to his guru. While anyone else would have tripped his brains out for days, the guru simply smiled and carried on as usual.

The difference is that when a normal person opens that door, he may not be ready for what he finds, while an advanced meditator has arrived there by regular practice and knows all the pitfalls and dangers. The former will have no map (or a highly incomplete one) to guide him through the inner landscape, the latter can rely on the map he received from his teacher and add his own through practice and personal experience. It's like attempting a triple backflip somersault without any training. It might go well, but you might break your neck too. 
 

The dreaming state and the "spiritual" state are both states of consciousness, but are on different wavelengths so to speak. 
When we dream, we have no control over the dream story (unless you can lucid dream, but that's another story). The elements of the dreamscape are provided by our memories, our fears and hopes and whether we had cheese for dinner or not. 55 The spiritual state on the other hand, is reached in full awareness. 
What you experiences during a dream may frighten you or make you happy while the dream lasts, but once you awaken, they are soon forgotten. What you experience in the spiritual state however, will stay with you for a long time, sometimes a lifetime and will have a lasting effect on the way you perceive yourself and the world.
 

The spirit world is not separate from our material world, just like radio waves are not separate in the air from ultraviolet waves, or just like salt is not separate in your soup. It coexists with the material world. That's why all the great teachers say that there is no point in trying to find enlightenment, because we are already enlightened. 
This means that the spiritual state is present at any moment, in every place.

So, why are we not all already enlightened? What is holding us back?
The main obstacle is the ego. The ego is a construct with which we learn to identify as children. It gives us the illusion that we are separate entities and as long as we believe this to be true, we won't be able to access the higher states of consciousness. That is exactly the goal of any form of meditation or spiritual practice: to dis-identify with the ego in order to discover what lies behind it. Think about it...what was there before you developed your sense of "I-ness"? 

What question can be asked to promote your awareness of it?
According to Ramana Maharshi, one of the greatest sages of all time, we should incessantly ask ourselves "Who am I?". The question is not really meant to get a rational answer, but is meant to dissolve the questioner (ego). It is meant to direct you to the source of "I".

I will start by responding to the question of " who am i ". This is just basically there is no question or test that can be applied. It is merely platitude of equally validity of God works in mysterious ways .

 

I struggle with your hallucinogenic substances, are these not merely stimulating the frontal cortex in the same manner as endorphins. Would you say that a person who experiences chilli endorphin high is also in the spirit world.. A chilli tricks the brain into believing the mouth is burning , this leads to a adrenalin rush and eventually an endorphin release giving the person a perception of happiness,

 

What is this spirit world , in which medium does it propagate throughout ( radio waves need to propagate from A-B( they dont exist simultaneously) . How can the spirt world  co exist everywhere in the material world but only accomplished persons need/pass through a door. The presence of a door implies it exist separately.

 

If everybody is already enlightened why do we need a teacher or guide.

 

Because somebody was able to function with an high dose of LSD does not provide proof of enlightenment or the spirit world. It merely proves their tolerance of LSD

 

How is the door opened

what actually passes through the door

how is information transferred from the spirit world to the material world.

Who or what is in the spirit world.

How does the spirit world function.

 

[Sunmaster]

55 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

I will start by responding to the question of " who am i ". This is just basically there is no question or test that can be applied. It is merely platitude of equally validity of God works in mysterious ways .

This question is meant to direct you to the source of "you", and is the complete opposite of a platitude. It is a psychological trick if you will, aimed at showing you what you are not, until that which you really are remains. Like peeling of the layers of an onion, you eventually reach its heart.
Maybe read some of Maharshi's writings. I'm 100% sure he can explain it much better than I.

 

55 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

I struggle with your hallucinogenic substances, are these not merely stimulating the frontal cortex in the same manner as endorphins. Would you say that a person who experiences chilli endorphin high is also in the spirit world.. A chilli tricks the brain into believing the mouth is burning , this leads to a adrenalin rush and eventually an endorphin release giving the person a perception of happiness,

Not "my" substances. 55
LSD, magic mushrooms, Peyote, DMT etc....all contain psychoactive compounds called alkaloids which are responsible for the hallucinogenic effect on humans. Chilies are not hallucinogenic, unfortunately.
Alkaloids are complex plant compounds that make many plant species toxic or unpalatable and act as a deterrent to “attacks” by herbivores. Many of these compounds are extremely poisonous to humans also, but in small amounts become the active ingredient in numerous therapeutic drugs.
https://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/ethnobotany/Mind_and_Spirit/powerhouses.shtml

 

55 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

What is this spirit world , in which medium does it propagate throughout ( radio waves need to propagate from A-B( they dont exist simultaneously) . How can the spirt world  co exist everywhere in the material world but only accomplished persons need/pass through a door. The presence of a door implies it exist separately.

The example of the radio waves was just a way to explain that even though they are not visible or hearable, they are still present at any time you want to tune in. The analogy can only go so far to explain something as ineffable as the spirit world. By the way, "spirit world" may mean something different to you. I use the term as "spiritual world" or "altered states of consciousness", not as a world where spirits live.
The presence of a door or gateway doesn't imply that it's separate from us. It's a barrier that lies within us. I never said only accomplished persons can pass through the door! I always said EVERYONE has the potential and the innate ability to do it. I consider it man's (and woman's) most basic need, birthright and duty to follow this call.

 

55 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

If everybody is already enlightened why do we need a teacher or guide.

 

It depends on what kind of priority in life you give to it. If you don't care about it, you won't be looking for a teacher. If you do care however, you will start acting upon this need and do whatever you can to fulfill it. If you care about it more than anything else, then you will want to make fast progress and therefore find the help of a teacher. 
Simply acknowledging that enlightenment is your natural state of being on an intellectual level won't make you enlightened. It is only by direct experience through lifetimes of seeking that you realize, really know, that you were already enlightened. It's a paradox, but that's the way it is.

 

55 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Because somebody was able to function with an high dose of LSD does not provide proof of enlightenment or the spirit world. It merely proves their tolerance of LSD

Have you ever taken LSD? I think not.
Yes, he had a high tolerance....but the question is HOW!