Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

7 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, comparing alcohol, opiates, and mushrooms just show that you know nothing about what you're talking about.

Apparently you don't know much about holy books as well.

I heard that Buddha didn't rate nonsense very highly,  do you agree ?

I was just about to say the same thing. Alcohol and opiates are completely different substances from entheogenic substances. That much should be clear by now.

 

Also, I'm no bible expert, but I don't think it describes God as living "high up in the sky ". Nor do I know of any other scriptures that do.

Maybe Vincent is referring to paintings in churches...

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

I was just about to say the same thing. Alcohol and opiates are completely different substances from entheogenic substances. That much should be clear by now.

 

Also, I'm no bible expert, but I don't think it describes God as living "high up in the sky ". Nor do I know of any other scriptures that do.

Maybe Vincent is referring to paintings in churches...

Perhaps ole Vincent should better talk about something he knows. 

As for the " sky" mentioned in our culture's holy books,  I guess it's to be interpreted as "space", or "ether" or "akasha ".

 

[pomchop]

 

 

If by "god" you mean the one (s) sold by religions, it all starts when kids are sold on Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny.  Then they are force fed all the Jesus stories of walking on water, burning bushes, coming back from the dead.  Many of us grow up and use our own brains to research, think, and wash away all these absurd fairy tales rather than remaining brainwashed all our lives.  Unfortunately millions of people never learn to reject this nonsense. 

 

 Of course if you were born in the west you were likely brainwashed to be a Christian.  If you were born in India you were brainwashed to be a Hindu....middle east, brainwashed as Muslim, Asia brainwashed as Buddhist...and on and on.  Each of these brainwashed religions claim that their religion is the "correct" one.  For millions their strong religious beliefs were determined simply by where they were born and brainwashed into that religious cult. And for centuries these brainwashed groups have fought and killed other brainwashed groups to prove that their religion/god is the best one. Ridiculous.

[Sunmaster]

5 hours ago, pomchop said:

If by "god" you mean the one (s) sold by religions

What if by "god" we don't mean the one sold by religions?

[VincentRJ]

49 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

What if by "god" we don't mean the one sold by religions?

For example, the one sold (or resulting) from taking 'mind-altering' drugs. Right? ????

[Sunmaster]

40 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

For example, the one sold (or resulting) from taking 'mind-altering' drugs. Right? ????

Or resulting from introspection and meditation perhaps? Right? ????

 

[VincentRJ]

7 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Or resulting from introspection and meditation perhaps? Right? ????

 

Everything is connected to some degree. The effects of introspection and meditation will always be influenced by other conditions, such as pre-existing mental and medical conditions, previous experiences and previous beliefs.

 

Often, Buddhist Meditation Retreats will not accept those who have had a previous mental problem because sometimes the effects of meditation can be harmful.

[mauGR1]

50 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

For example, the one sold (or resulting) from taking 'mind-altering' drugs. Right? ????

That sounds really lame and desperate,  sorry to say.

TV, movies,  internet are mind altering too.

Tragedies, or great achievements in life are mind altering too.

Even boredom is mind altering. 

Life in itself is a mind altering experience. 

But, some see the intelligent design sometimes, very few can see the intelligent design in everything and everywhere. 

The majority,  however cannot see any intelligence beyond their opinion ????

[Kanada]

No disrespect intended but serious question:

 

why would I?

[mauGR1]

10 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Often, Buddhist Meditation Retreats will not accept those who have had a previous mental problem because sometimes the effects of meditation can be harmful.

That's a very, very strange thing to say.

Any personal experience you'd like to share ?

[Sunmaster]

10 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Everything is connected to some degree. The effects of introspection and meditation will always be influenced by other conditions, such as pre-existing mental and medical conditions, previous experiences and previous beliefs.

 

Often, Buddhist Meditation Retreats will not accept those who have had a previous mental problem because sometimes the effects of meditation can be harmful.

Of course we are all influenced by those, whether we meditate or not. That's not the point.

The point is that through meditation we can mitigate that influence to a point where it doesn't have such a strong hold on us. Meditation's goal is to disconnect from our ego identification in order to let that which IS come through.
The same can be achieved (under the right circumstances) through entheogenic substances, as scientific research has shown already. So, what are you trying to mock here? Science?

I disagree with what you say about "effects of meditation being harmful". Meditation is the mean to rattle the cage and long buried stuff might emerge from that. This can cause an unbalanced individual to feel they have lost control in their life. 
Meditation didn't cause the problem, it is the cure.

 

[Sunmaster]

13 minutes ago, Kanada said:

No disrespect intended but serious question:

 

why would I?

Up to you...

[VincentRJ]

31 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

That's a very, very strange thing to say.

Any personal experience you'd like to share ?

I have no personal experiences of the possible harmful effects of meditation, but there are references in the Buddhist section of this forum, to Buddhist retreats in Thailand that require new entrants to sign a form declaring that they have had no previous mental problems.

 

The risk of a negative effect from meditation appears to be real, although it will apply to only a small percentage of participants.

 

Here's an article that addresses the issue.

 

"But now my new study, which reviews over 40 years of the science of meditation and mindfulness-based therapies, suggests that these practices can also lead to negative effects in about 8 per cent of individuals — from increases in anxiety, depression and stress, to unusual experiences like hallucinations."

 

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/can-mindfulness-and-meditation-be-harmful/

[VincentRJ]

12 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

I was just about to say the same thing. Alcohol and opiates are completely different substances from entheogenic substances. That much should be clear by now.

 

They're not completely different. They are all in the class of 'Psychoactive" drugs, that is, a drug that will chemically alter the brain and change the way a person feels, thinks, perceives and understands the world.

 

Li Bai was a very famous Chinese poet who often wrote when he was drunk. There's an  interesting story about his death. (I'm reluctant to call it amusing  ???? ). Whilst on a boat in a lake (or river), drunk as usual, he saw a reflection of the moon in the water, and thought it was the real thing. He tried to grasp it, perhaps thinking he would become 'one with God'. Sadly, he fell into the water and drowned'

 

Here's one of his famous poems.

 

Waking From Drunkenness on a Spring Day 

Life in the world is but a big dream;
I will not spoil it by any labour or care.
So saying, I was drunk all the day,
Lying helpless at the porch in front of my door.

 

When I awoke, I blinked at the garden-lawn;
A lonely bird was singing amid the flowers.
I asked myself, had the day been wet or fine?
The Spring wind was telling the mango-bird.

 

Moved by its song I soon began to sigh,
And, as wine was there, I filled my own cup.
Wildly singing I waited for the moon to rise;
When my song was over, all my senses had gone.
 

 

"Maybe Vincent is referring to paintings in churches..."

 The Sistine Chapel comes to mind.

[mauGR1]

20 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

I have no personal experiences of the possible harmful effects of meditation, but there are references in the Buddhist section of this forum, to Buddhist retreats in Thailand that require new entrants to sign a form declaring that they have had no previous mental problems.

 

The risk of a negative effect from meditation appears to be real, although it will apply to only a small percentage of participants.

 

Here's an article that addresses the issue.

 

"But now my new study, which reviews over 40 years of the science of meditation and mindfulness-based therapies, suggests that these practices can also lead to negative effects in about 8 per cent of individuals — from increases in anxiety, depression and stress, to unusual experiences like hallucinations."

 

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/can-mindfulness-and-meditation-be-harmful/

I'm not denying that some people can have bad experiences when doing meditation practices, and i can understand that they can be quite negative in yoga courses and the such.

What I'm questioning are the parameters which define a "mental problem ".

Actually, the one who has a serious mental problem will be the last to acknowledge it.

Moreover, meditation is supposed to improve one's well being, so it would be wrong to blame meditation in case of mental problems, which are going to surface anyway, with or without meditation. 

[Sunmaster]

23 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

They're not completely different. They are all in the class of 'Psychoactive" drugs, that is, a drug that will chemically alter the brain and change the way a person feels, thinks, perceives and understands the world.

 

Li Bai was a very famous Chinese poet who often wrote when he was drunk. There's an  interesting story about his death. (I'm reluctant to call it amusing  ???? ). Whilst on a boat in a lake (or river), drunk as usual, he saw a reflection of the moon in the water, and thought it was the real thing. He tried to grasp it, perhaps thinking he would become 'one with God'. Sadly, he fell into the water and drowned'

 

Here's one of his famous poems.

 

Waking From Drunkenness on a Spring Day 

Life in the world is but a big dream;
I will not spoil it by any labour or care.
So saying, I was drunk all the day,
Lying helpless at the porch in front of my door.

 

When I awoke, I blinked at the garden-lawn;
A lonely bird was singing amid the flowers.
I asked myself, had the day been wet or fine?
The Spring wind was telling the mango-bird.

 

Moved by its song I soon began to sigh,
And, as wine was there, I filled my own cup.
Wildly singing I waited for the moon to rise;
When my song was over, all my senses had gone.
 

 

"Maybe Vincent is referring to paintings in churches..."

 The Sistine Chapel comes to mind.

Coincidentally, here's a drawing I'm working on. 

 

The Buddha (our true nature) is sitting in the clouds. But of course, as with all spiritually inspired art, the elements in the artwork are not to be taken literally (and neither are the stories in the holy scriptures). Same as with Christian art....God is not literally sitting on a throne in the clouds. They are just metaphors for glory and infinity.


 

30 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

They're not completely different. They are all in the class of 'Psychoactive" drugs, that is, a drug that will chemically alter the brain and change the way a person feels, thinks, perceives and understands the world.

Yes, they are "psychoactive", just like nicotine, sugar, caffeine...but, I'm sure you will agree here, the effects of each of these substances vary widely one from another. In that sense, comparing mushrooms or LSD to alcohol and opiates is rather silly. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

I'm discussing the possible causes of the fanciful stories found in many scriptural texts that imply that God, for example, is an entity that exists high up in the sky.

That, to me is an admission that you are discussing religion. One of the three of us is discussing hallucinogens, but far as I know he's not into religion, which is what the "books" are about.

 

Of course, you can discuss anything that can be reasonably linked to the OP, but I don't know who you are discussing it with, if it's about religion. You have been quoting me and then discussing religion, which is strange, seeing that I've often said I'm not religious.

 

14 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

I'm sure you've mentioned many times in this thread that you accept that God is unknowable, ineffable and indescribable. If I've got that right then surely it's obvious that you cannot know what the needs of God are, so why state what he doesn't need, as if you know?

Sorry, but I have no idea how me saying "God doesn't need to punish humans for their misbehaviour. We are punishing ourselves by destroying the environment and humanity will suffer for it ( even more than already ) IMO. " has anything to do knowing what God's needs are. Far as I can see, I was saying that God is having NOTHING to do with punishing humanity.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, pomchop said:

 

 

If by "god" you mean the one (s) sold by religions, it all starts when kids are sold on Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny.  Then they are force fed all the Jesus stories of walking on water, burning bushes, coming back from the dead.  Many of us grow up and use our own brains to research, think, and wash away all these absurd fairy tales rather than remaining brainwashed all our lives.  Unfortunately millions of people never learn to reject this nonsense. 

 

 Of course if you were born in the west you were likely brainwashed to be a Christian.  If you were born in India you were brainwashed to be a Hindu....middle east, brainwashed as Muslim, Asia brainwashed as Buddhist...and on and on.  Each of these brainwashed religions claim that their religion is the "correct" one.  For millions their strong religious beliefs were determined simply by where they were born and brainwashed into that religious cult. And for centuries these brainwashed groups have fought and killed other brainwashed groups to prove that their religion/god is the best one. Ridiculous.

I don't disagree with any of that, but some of us stopped talking about religion a long time ago. The religious thing was pounded for a long time after the thread started, but that got rather boring a couple hundred pages ago, so you will excuse us if we don't respond to all that religious stuff that we don't believe in.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Kanada said:

No disrespect intended but serious question:

 

why would I?

Only you can answer that, as it lies within you.

 

The path to discovery has been discussed often on these pages by Sunmaster, but it's up to you to decide whether you want to put in the work.

Some, like myself, had a Damascus moment and don't need to do the work, so I consider myself fortunate.

 

God is everywhere, but only you can open yourself to see.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

They're not completely different. They are all in the class of 'Psychoactive" drugs, that is, a drug that will chemically alter the brain and change the way a person feels, thinks, perceives and understands the world.

 

Li Bai was a very famous Chinese poet who often wrote when he was drunk. There's an  interesting story about his death. (I'm reluctant to call it amusing  ???? ). Whilst on a boat in a lake (or river), drunk as usual, he saw a reflection of the moon in the water, and thought it was the real thing. He tried to grasp it, perhaps thinking he would become 'one with God'. Sadly, he fell into the water and drowned'

 

Here's one of his famous poems.

 

Waking From Drunkenness on a Spring Day 

Life in the world is but a big dream;
I will not spoil it by any labour or care.
So saying, I was drunk all the day,
Lying helpless at the porch in front of my door.

 

When I awoke, I blinked at the garden-lawn;
A lonely bird was singing amid the flowers.
I asked myself, had the day been wet or fine?
The Spring wind was telling the mango-bird.

 

Moved by its song I soon began to sigh,
And, as wine was there, I filled my own cup.
Wildly singing I waited for the moon to rise;
When my song was over, all my senses had gone.
 

 

"Maybe Vincent is referring to paintings in churches..."

 The Sistine Chapel comes to mind.

Thank you for that poem.

 

As for "The Sistine Chapel comes to mind." I'm sure you know that is a product of religion.

I, for one, don't regard the Sistine Chapel having much to do with belief in God, per se.

However, you are correct in that the Sistine paintings do indicate that God lives in the sky, but how many would take that as a representation of reality?

[pomchop]

12 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

What if by "god" we don't mean the one sold by religions?

define "god"

[VincentRJ]

8 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

I'm sure you will agree here, the effects of each of these substances vary widely one from another. In that sense, comparing mushrooms or LSD to alcohol and opiates is rather silly. 

Wow! How do you know that the effects of each of those substances vary widely if you don't compare them? ????

 

The experiences will vary widely, not only because of the differences in the nature of the drugs, but also the differences in the nature of the individual taking the drugs.

 

For example, not all people who take LSD will imagine they can fly, and jump off a cliff or tall building to their death. But some do.

 

[Sunmaster]

34 minutes ago, pomchop said:

define "god"

How exactly do you expect me to define (=confine into words) something that is eternal and that no language can come even close to describe (apart from music perhaps)? 

[VincentRJ]

9 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Moreover, meditation is supposed to improve one's well being, so it would be wrong to blame meditation in case of mental problems, which are going to surface anyway, with or without meditation. 

I understand quite well that meditation is supposed to improve one's well-being. Why would anyone do it if this was not the purpose?

I imagine the majority of participants do experience an improvement in their well-being, and I was quite surprised when I first came across reports of the negative effects, a few years ago.

 

The impression I now get from recent searches on the internet is that these negative effects are under-reported and are also not confined to those with a history of mental problems.

 

The following study, published quite recently in August 2020, addresses the uncertainty and the likely under-reporting,

 

"Meditation techniques are widely used as therapy and wellbeing practices, but there are growing concerns about its potential for harm. The aim of the present study is to systematically review 'meditation adverse events' (MAEs), investigating its major clinical categories and its prevalence."
 

"In conclusion, this first systematic review of 'meditation adverse events' covering almost 5 decades of studies has found a wide range of potential negative symptoms. The ethical obligation to do no harm urges clinicians and researchers to promote practices of active monitoring of MAEs. Given the popularity of meditation practices, further research into this area should become a priority."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acps.13225

[Skeptic7]

26 minutes ago, pomchop said:

define "god"

Yeah...good luck with that. The 3 "believers" remaining are  pantheistic/polytheistic/magical mystical spiritualists without any meaningful or coherent definitions provided in the 2+ years this thread has been going. At times anything and literally everything has been labeled "god" without a shred of evidence or even compelling arguments to justify these claims.

 

Sunmaster is the only one whom occasionally has some interesting posts, but they're so far off the topic of anything remotely "god" that it's not worth discussing on this thread.

 

Regardless of lack of definitions or evidence...they all seem to always agree with one another! 555 ????

 

It's certainly been entertaining and fun, but not at all enlightening or informative. 

[Sunmaster]

14 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Wow! How do you know that the effects of each of those substances vary widely if you don't compare them? ????

 

The experiences will vary widely, not only because of the differences in the nature of the drugs, but also the differences in the nature of the individual taking the drugs.

 

For example, not all people who take LSD will imagine they can fly, and jump off a cliff or tall building to their death. But some do.

 

Grasping at straws, are we?

Of course experiences will vary, even when looking at one single substance. Still, all the various mushroom experiences will be very different from all the various alcohol experiences in very significant ways. I mean, this is obvious information you can easily google yourself.

And by the way, if someone under the influence of LSD jumps off a building, it's not the LSD's fault, but the guy's fault for taking a substance without following the most basic precautions: the right set and setting. 
A drunk guy crashes his car. Was it the alcohol or the irresponsible driver's fault?
A guy shoots someone. Was it the gun or the shooter's fault?

[VincentRJ]

6 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

How exactly do you expect me to define (=confine into words) something that is eternal and that no language can come even close to describe (apart from music perhaps)? 

You've just defined God in words, 'as something that is eternal', and then contradicted yourself by stating that no language can come even close to describe God. ????

[Sunmaster]

19 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

You've just defined God in words, 'as something that is eternal', and then contradicted yourself by stating that no language can come even close to describe God. ????

A very wise man once said: 

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

Tao Te Ching
Verse 1

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, VincentRJ said:

I understand quite well that meditation is supposed to improve one's well-being. Why would anyone do it if this was not the purpose?

I imagine the majority of participants do experience an improvement in their well-being, and I was quite surprised when I first came across reports of the negative effects, a few years ago.

 

The impression I now get from recent searches on the internet is that these negative effects are under-reported and are also not confined to those with a history of mental problems.

 

The following study, published quite recently in August 2020, addresses the uncertainty and the likely under-reporting,

 

"Meditation techniques are widely used as therapy and wellbeing practices, but there are growing concerns about its potential for harm. The aim of the present study is to systematically review 'meditation adverse events' (MAEs), investigating its major clinical categories and its prevalence."
 

"In conclusion, this first systematic review of 'meditation adverse events' covering almost 5 decades of studies has found a wide range of potential negative symptoms. The ethical obligation to do no harm urges clinicians and researchers to promote practices of active monitoring of MAEs. Given the popularity of meditation practices, further research into this area should become a priority."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acps.13225

Are you still climbing mirrors ?

So, if meditation is so dangerous,  would you suggest people to get drunk and drive faster instead ?

Or perhaps sit and watch the TV until they become totally obtuse ?

I guess that you can find plenty of scientific studies which show how dangerous life is, according to that logic, we'd all better kill ourselves. 

[Skeptic7]

52 minutes ago, pomchop said:

define "god"

 

8 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

How exactly do you expect me to define (=confine into words) something that is eternal and that no language can come even close to describe (apart from music perhaps)? 

See...exactly what I was saying and what you'll always get...Nothing. No definition, no idea, no clue nor evidence...yet full on persistent belief in things they don't understand and can't even define, but somehow it's "god". ????