Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

31 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

I see a big distinction between being 'enlightened', and believing in and understanding the nature of a 'Creator God'.

 

I associate the word 'enlightenment' with Gautama Buddha. As I understand, the Buddha did not endorse the existence of a Creator God because it was something which was 'unknowable'. The Buddha's purpose was more practical, to reduce suffering, rather than waste time speculating on the unknowable.

 

Lao Tzu and Confucius had a similar view.

Good point. 

The way I see it is that this "unknowable' can manifest in 3 ways:
"IT - Third Person"...as the impersonal, universal energy that permeates everything. (Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Taoism)
"YOU - Second Person"....as a personified entity that exists external from me, one which I can pray to and kneel down in front of. (Christianity, Hinduism)
"I - First Person" ...as the realization that once you fully identify with the godhead, you effectively become God, realizing that you were already God all the time.

One way doesn't exclude the other and they are all 3 manifestations of the same thing.

Now that I think about it, this seems to be the same as the Holy Trinity of God (2nd person), Son (1st person) and Holy Spirit (3rd person).

Edited September 15, 2019 by Sunmaster

[Skeptic7]

9 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Au contraire mon amie

I said a primary student won't have the tools nor the framework to judge the knowledge of a secondary student or the teacher's knowledge.

Please tell me this isn't so. Show me proof this isn't so. 
 

I am surely oversimplifying this to you (for my sanity), but comparing the knowledge and abilities of children to that of adults (or much older students) is usually simple and normally not subjective. Judging the "mastery" or "knowledge" of a "spiritual woo-ster"...yogi, sage, mystic, whatever...is almost purely subjective and based on conjecture IMO.  

 

 

[Sunmaster]

The fact that one has reached a high personal developmental stage can not be based on a mere opinion. That would invalidate any kind of hierarchy. 
Or are you saying there is no difference between a selfish, narcissistic person and a selfless, compassionate person (at least in regard of personal development)?
There are different levels of awareness and denying them doesn't make them go away.

[ThaiRebound]

20 hours ago, sirineou said:

Lemon meringue pies at twenty paces?

pie contest. Lemon does not suit as a pie flavor. 

[ThaiRebound]

To all you recovering Catholics, if you die and get to Heaven, what are you going to say to Jesus or God? Did he betray you? I'll bet you'll really tear into him, huh?

[Solinvictus]

Anyone willing to kill another for an entity is sadly mistaken. IMO.

[Sunmaster]

7 hours ago, Solinvictus said:

Anyone willing to kill another for an entity is sadly mistaken. IMO.

I think we can all agree on that. 
Killing for the idea of a supernatural entity or the idea of some other perceived superiority (ideological, philosophical, social, racial, political) should never be tolerated.

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I think we can all agree on that. 
Killing for the idea of a supernatural entity or the idea of some other perceived superiority (ideological, philosophical, social, racial, political) should never be tolerated.

Sorry to be pedantic, but no killing should be tolerated except for self defense.

..And let me add that many criminals, in the past until present times, have tried to hide their crimes behind high ideals, not only religion, but also patriotism and politics, while their real motives are material gains, don't need to name names.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 11:55 AM, sirineou said:

Impossible to prove a negative, 

Can you provide proof  that leprechauns don't exist. all you can do is provide evidence.

Atheists are not convinced by the evidence the theists provide to support their extraordinary claim. If one wants to convince me of the existence of Yahweh provide me with convincing evidence, until such time I remain unconvinced and an Atheist . 

You seem to miss the fact that most of us "believers" are not trying to convert you, or anyone else. I'm ON TOPIC replying to the OP, but seems to me that many non believers are spending a lot of time trying to convert us, which is a complete waste of time. Of course you can't prove a negative, so you can't prove that God does not exist, so, ergo, God can exist, but not in a form that atheists would recognise. After all, the Bible tells us that God was a burning bush. I think God can appear in all sorts of ways- a wonderful sunset, a starry, starry sky, and lovely mountain. However, I don't think God is an old man sitting in a chair.

Atheists are not convinced by the evidence the theists provide to support their extraordinary claim.

LOL. I hope I haven't given any "evidence" of God's existence, as that would be contrary to my position that God is unknowable.

Also I don't think it's extraordinary that God exists- I think it's as ordinary as the sun coming up every morning- God just "is".

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

I think we can all agree on that. 
Killing for the idea of a supernatural entity or the idea of some other perceived superiority (ideological, philosophical, social, racial, political) should never be tolerated.

IMO, no one ever killed for "God" except insane people. However, many very bad people used God as an excuse to kill other people for their own benefit in land and treasure acquired by doing so.

[Sunmaster]

27 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO, no one ever killed for "God" except insane people. However, many very bad people used God as an excuse to kill other people for their own benefit in land and treasure acquired by doing so.

 

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Sorry to be pedantic, but no killing should be tolerated except for self defense.

..And let me add that many criminals, in the past until present times, have tried to hide their crimes behind high ideals, not only religion, but also patriotism and politics, while their real motives are material gains, don't need to name names.

Let's not split hairs on a topic where I believe we are all on the same boat. Killing is bad, unless it's in self defense.

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

 

Let's not split hairs on a topic where I believe we are all on the same boat. Killing is bad, unless it's in self defense.

Well, i think that we are pretty much on the same page, but splitting hairs is not that bad imo.

I never thought that one day i had to defend religion, but, as i said countless times on this thread, we should not throw away the baby with the dirty water, so to speak.

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You seem to miss the fact that most of us "believers" are not trying to convert you, or anyone else. I'm ON TOPIC replying to the OP, but seems to me that many non believers are spending a lot of time trying to convert us, which is a complete waste of time.

Sure I can't remember how many times an Atheist has strapped on a bomb vest and with the cry "there is no god " took out a wedding party.

 

 

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Of course you can't prove a negative, so you can't prove that God does not exist, so, ergo, God can exist, but not in a form that atheists would recognise.

Just because something could exist does not mean that it does or that it is even probable ,it only means that like most things it is possible.So ist it possible that Unicorns exist ? Sure!! will I base my life on that possibility?  You could if you want , but not me and please don't try to make me.

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

seems to me that many non believers are spending a lot of time trying to convert us, which is a complete waste of time.

 Yes indeed , every sunday we dress in our best and we knock on doors, trying to spread the bad word!  bur in spite of our efforts faith is resisting reason. and religion is on the rise all over the civilised world. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Sure I can't remember how many times an Atheist has strapped on a bomb vest and with the cry "there is no god " took out a wedding party.

 

 

Just because something could exist does not mean that it does or that it is even probable ,it only means that like most things it is possible.So ist it possible that Unicorns exist ? Sure!! will I base my life on that possibility?  You could if you want , but not me and please don't try to make me.

 Yes indeed , every sunday we dress in our best and we knock on doors, trying to spread the bad word!  bur in spite of our efforts faith is resisting reason. and religion is on the rise all over the civilised world. 

I was referring only to this thread. I haven't seen any Mormons on it.

 

What have suicide bombers got to do with the existence of God? they are brainwashed, not true believers as suicide bombing is not permitted by Islam, any more than by Christianity.

That's just deflecting from the OP.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was referring only to this thread. I haven't seen any Mormons on it.

 

What have suicide bombers got to do with the existence of God? they are brainwashed, not true believers as suicide bombing is not permitted by Islam, any more than by Christianity.

That's just deflecting from the OP.

 

I might be mistaken but the OP is belief of god  in general, and not only in this forum or thread,. If indeed it is about belief in god only in this particular thread , then my apologies.

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Sure I can't remember how many times an Atheist has strapped on a bomb vest and with the cry "there is no god " took out a wedding party.

 

You seem to forget the genocides perpetrated by non-religious regimes. 
It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 and 259,432,000 human lives. 

https://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_Mass_Murder

 

And this is just communism.

From the same link:

Nobel Prize winner Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was asked to account for the great tragedies that occurred under the brutal communist regime he and fellow citizens suffered under.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn offered the following explanation:

“

Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.' Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.' [15]

 

In any case, we are running around in circle blaming each other for the madness of the past. We can't change what happened, atrocities have been committed under each banner. What we can do, is to avoid the mistakes of the past and look for solutions to build a better future. 
 

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

You seem to forget the genocides perpetrated by non-religious regimes. 
It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 and 259,432,000 human lives. 

https://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_Mass_Murder

 

And this is just communism.

From the same link:

Nobel Prize winner Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was asked to account for the great tragedies that occurred under the brutal communist regime he and fellow citizens suffered under.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn offered the following explanation:

“

Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.' Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.' [15]

 

In any case, we are running around in circle blaming each other for the madness of the past. We can't change what happened, atrocities have been committed under each banner. What we can do, is to avoid the mistakes of the past and look for solutions to build a better future. 
 

Sure people do all short of evil things , religion is not the only cause of human stupidity.

[Sunmaster]

One thing I find interesting at this point is, why does one feel legitimized to harm others to impose his belief system, be it religious or atheist?

 

Let's take it down a notch and just talk about aggression. Why do people get defensive at first and often aggressive when presented with differing ideas? What are they threatened by?

 

In my opinion it's depends on what we choose to identify with. Think about it....if I ask you: Who are you?...what will you answer?
- I'm a man...a woman....I'm strong....tall....beautiful.... (identification with the body)
- I'm a (insert nationality)....(identification with geographical location, cultural group)
- I'm Christian....atheist....Buddhist....communist...(identification with belief system/ ideology)
- I'm a doctor...a teacher....(identification with occupation)

...

 

The problem with these (restrictive) identifications is that they are very limiting and exclusive. Another problem is that once you completely identify with one of these items, questioning the item becomes a personal attack. It will feel as if the very foundations of your being are being questioned. A dissolution of such an identification then would equal a dissolution of one's ego, which will perceived as dying. The ego will fight against this at any cost, even the most extreme measures will seem legit.

 

Fortunately, there is a solution to this problem. Do not identify with anything that is limiting you.
Who are you?

You are not your body. If you were to become quadriplegic, you would still be you.

You are not your thoughts. If you change religion, political view, ideology...you will still be you.

You are not your occupation. If you change job, you will still be you.

You are not your ego. Once the ego has been relegated to the backbench, consciousness is still there. You are still there, although not in the way you may think now.
Peel off these identification traps one by one. What is left?

 

Nothing (bad) will happen if you allow yourself to change your mind, or just accept that somebody else can be right too.  

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

You seem to forget the genocides perpetrated by non-religious regimes. 
It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 and 259,432,000 human lives. 

https://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_Mass_Murder

 

And this is just communism.

From the same link:

Nobel Prize winner Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was asked to account for the great tragedies that occurred under the brutal communist regime he and fellow citizens suffered under.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn offered the following explanation:

“

Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.' Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.' [15]

 

In any case, we are running around in circle blaming each other for the madness of the past. We can't change what happened, atrocities have been committed under each banner. What we can do, is to avoid the mistakes of the past and look for solutions to build a better future. 
 

Those genocidal slaughters were NOT in the name of "Atheism". There are no sacred atheist "holey" texts of BS saying kill the non-atheists. It was about power, control, ethnic cleansing and domination. Their non-religious beliefs were just happenstance and was not the motivation. It would be like saying since Hitler was a vegetarian (whether he actually was or not), that vegetarians have slaughtered millions in the name of vegetarianism. The 2 exclusive and not reliant on, nor a motivation for, the other.

 

Nobody disputes that many have been killed in the names of Christianity & Islam...including even superstitious Witch Hunts and the burning of "witches" throughout Europe and even a few in early America.

[Sunmaster]

 

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

Those genocidal slaughters were NOT in the name of "Atheism". There are no sacred atheist "holey" texts of BS saying kill the non-atheists. It was about power, control, ethnic cleansing and domination. Their non-religious beliefs were just happenstance and was not the motivation. It would be like saying since Hitler was a vegetarian (whether he actually was or not), that vegetarians have slaughtered millions in the name of vegetarianism. The 2 exclusive and not reliant on, nor a motivation for, the other.

 

Nobody disputes that many have been killed in the names of Christianity & Islam...including even superstitious Witch Hunts and the burning of "witches" throughout Europe and even a few in early America.

Tell that to the 250+ millions killed, maybe they care about this distinction.

Sure, they didn't have an 'Atheist flag', but their goal was to wipe out anyone who was different and install an atheist, communist government in the lands they conquered. Atheism therefore was very well one of the motivations and goals of communism. 
Ever heard of the Little Red Book? It's a little book written by Chairman Mao in 1964, who killed up to 40.000.000 people, actively eradicating religion and destroying religious sites during the Cultural Revolution.
Their non-religious beliefs were just happenstance you say?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

More details about persecution of religions in China:
https://www.trtworld.com/asia/13-things-to-know-about-religions-persecution-in-china-308451

Edited September 16, 2019 by Sunmaster

[Sunmaster]

Can we please stop now with this finger-pointing and move forward?

[Skeptic7]

57 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

 

Tell that to the 250+ millions killed, maybe they care about this distinction.

Sure, they didn't have an 'Atheist flag', but their goal was to wipe out anyone who was different and install an atheist, communist government in the lands they conquered. Atheism therefore was very well one of the motivations and goals of communism. 
Ever heard of the Little Red Book? It's a little book written by Chairman Mao in 1964, who killed up to 2.000.000 people, actively eradicating religion and destroying religious sites during the Cultural Revolution.
Their non-religious beliefs were just happenstance you say?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

Mao crushed whoever and whatever stood in his way. While agreed that he was anti-religion and he perceived that it also stood in his wacky way...but his motivation was complete control...political totalitarianism. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" is one of his scary quotes. 

 

Regardless, we agree...BAD guy whatever his motivation. Funny, I've been to China many times and he is revered almost "god-like"! Was in Beijing on his birthday (26 Dec) one year and asked what all the activity was in Tiananmen Square. Chinese gal told us we could see Chairman Mao's (very well preserved) corpse, which is rolled out on display for all to see every year on his birthday. We did. Very well preserved, but NO cameras allowed. Took the snap below. Pics and references of and to him are prominent...

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Skeptic7

[mauGR1]

27 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Can we please stop now with this finger-pointing and move forward?

Yep, the trinity thing that you mentioned a few post ago, it seems quite interesting to me, the number 3 and its relation with the number 1 could be a key for understanding the unknowable.

Because i think that there are keys for unlocking mysterious concepts, and i suspect that the so despised religious texts may contain more than one clue to find them.

 

 

[Sunmaster]

48 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Mao crushed whoever and whatever stood in his way. While agreed that he was anti-religion and he perceived that it also stood in his wacky way...but his motivation was complete control...political totalitarianism. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" is one of his scary quotes. 

 

Regardless, we agree...BAD guy whatever his motivation. Funny, I've been to China many times and he is revered almost "god-like"! Was in Beijing on his birthday (26 Dec) one year and asked what all the activity was in Tiananmen Square. Chinese gal told us we could see Chairman Mao's (very well preserved) corpse, which is rolled out on display for all to see every year on his birthday. We did. Very well preserved, but NO cameras allowed. Took the snap below. Pics and references of and to him are prominent...

 

I feel like I've won the lottery! ????????

Interesting what you say about Mao in China. Is that some sort of forced reverence, North Korean style? Or do they truly see him as god-like?

[Skeptic7]

11 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Interesting what you say about Mao in China. Is that some sort of forced reverence, North Korean style? Or do they truly see him as god-like?

Both.

 

Ignorance to the actual history. Taught in schools years ago (and probably continues today), only what the government wants the students to know...cherry picking the good and omitting the awful. Hmmmm...a vaguely familiar theme with other alleged "godlike" figures! (to which I know you don't prescribe) Some good articles on the subject are out there from LA Times...NY Times...and very interesting from Peking Review and some others. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Can we please stop now with this finger-pointing and move forward?

Don't hold your breath.

[VincentRJ]

I'm surprised that some posters are having difficulty in distinguishing between a 'belief in religion' and a 'lack of a belief in religion'. Claiming that a 'lack of belief' is a belief, is nonsense, although it is true that a person who lacks a belief in a religion, might have a belief in something else, such as a belief the methodology of science.

 

Communist, fascist and dictatorial regimes, are all about exerting full control of all citizens, whether such citizens are atheists, agnostics or religious fanatics.
 

Edited September 17, 2019 by VincentRJ

[Sunmaster]

9 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

I'm surprised that some posters are having difficulty in distinguishing between a 'belief in religion' and a 'lack of a belief in religion'. Claiming that a 'lack of belief' is a belief, is nonsense, although it is true that a person who lacks a belief in a religion, might have a belief in something else, such as a belief the methodology of science.

 

Communist, fascist and dictatorial regimes, are all about exerting full control of all citizens, whether such citizens are atheists, agnostics or religious fanatics.
 

I'm wondering if it's even possible having a "belief in religion". Religion exists, there's no point in believing in it or not or question its existence.
Or do you mean "belief in God/Higher Power/Spirit"?

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

I'm wondering if it's even possible having a "belief in religion". Religion exists, there's no point in believing in it or not or question its existence.
Or do you mean "belief in God/Higher Power/Spirit"?

I'm not aware of any religions that do not include either gods, higher powers, or magical spirits. I have assumed that belief in a religion includes at least some of those, although there might be one or two exceptions. Buddhism as a philosophy or way of life could be considered an exception, but the general religion of Buddhism, as practiced by the masses, includes spirits and 'lower order' gods.

 

Religions exist, just as everything we can think of exists, in the human mind. Fantasies exist, but only in the mind of some people. Religions exist, but only in the mind of some people.

 

A solid concrete or brick wall also exists in the mind of those who can see it. But it also exists outside of the mind, as can be demonstrated by anyone who kicks it with a bare foot, perhaps breaking a toe.

 

See the difference? ????

[mauGR1]

50 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

A solid concrete or brick wall also exists in the mind of those who can see it. But it also exists outside of the mind, as can be demonstrated by anyone who kicks it with a bare foot, perhaps breaking a toe.

 

See the difference? 

A brick and a wall, and a brick wall exist originally in the mind of the creator, a man in this case.

Without imagination and a mind to store images, there would be no brick wall.