Anger over Brexit sparks new grassroots drive for Scottish independence

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Will England stop importing Scottish produce? What about the English produce that flows north? 

 

As all Brexiteers seem to state, there is no need for a hard border between NI and ROI - why would there need to be one between Scotland and England in that case?

 

And what about the essential supplies that Scotland provides to England? Electricity, water, oil and gas - from where will England source these if they choose to be awkward?

 

The fact is that 14 countries have declared independence from the UK in the last 100 years. All but one created their own currencies from nothing; 6 have gone on to join the Euro; all are doing comparatively well and NONE have expressed regret at breaking from the UK or sought to be returned to Westminster rule. Why do you think that Scotland would not fare equally as well?

Which 6 countries have the Euro now?

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, billd766 said:

I see quite a few posts about Scotland leaving the UK, and Scotland's right to choose, but what I don't see very much of is the UK's right to get rid of Scotland from the Union.

 

I have seen the odd post on TVF and on several other forums about Scots Indy Ref 2, but I wonder how the Scots would feel if the rest of the union decided that the Scots will go, like it or not, for Indy Ref 2 let the rest of the UK vote and simply kick Scotland out then started to send them the bills for defence, for splitting the oil revenue (which does NOT belong to Scotland alone), to refuse the BoE to support the Scottish pound.

 

Basically to say to Nicola Sturgeon, OK, you want independence, you have it and on your own heads be it. The Union does not want Scotland. From this date on you are on your own with no support from the rest of the union at all. You are no longer represented in the UK parliament, you receive no funding from the union, all the defence establishments will be repatriated to England, all the jobs will go too.

Any campaign for English independence would have my support. 

The anger and petulance in your post does read like a teenage rant. Let's hope that when we do enter into independence negotiations, the adults are actually in the room. 

[RuamRudy]

28 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Faslane is the best location but there are options. 

They are the best location if you live in the south of England, but not if you live in Scotland. The best option, in my opinion, would be to scrap the white elephant immediately. There are others that are suggesting we rent Faslane to England indefinitely, but I would prefer that we make a deadline of 2 years for England to find an alternative location. 

[sandyf]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Any campaign for English independence would have my support. 

The anger and petulance in your post does read like a teenage rant. Let's hope that when we do enter into independence negotiations, the adults are actually in the room. 

I wonder how many "millions" DC was actually speaking for.

 

I speak for millions of people across England, Wales and Northern Ireland – and many in Scotland, too who would be utterly heart-broken by the break-up of the United Kingdom.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-full-text-of-david-camerons-no-going-back-speech-9735902.html

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

They are the best location if you live in the south of England, but not if you live in Scotland. The best option, in my opinion, would be to scrap the white elephant immediately. There are others that are suggesting we rent Faslane to England indefinitely, but I would prefer that we make a deadline of 2 years for England to find an alternative location. 

I was speaking from an operational perspective. If Scotland does leave the UK then of course that is a different matter and there are options but not as good as Faslane.

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, aright said:

You may have heard it when Algeria, Mali, South Sudan, Namibia and Niger et al got there independence. All these countries fall far short of being liberal democracies, and all have experienced in the recent past, or continue to experience, some form of war.  Independence is no guarantee of happiness Brexit or Scotland.

 

Is there any reason why you focused solely on the failed states and ignored the many other countries that successfully emerged from under the burden of Westminster rule.

 

List of countries that have gained independence from the United Kingdom

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Which 6 countries have the Euro now?

Sorry - that whole sentence was a bit of a brain freeze on my part. The number which gained independence from the UK is, of course much more than 14. But only 3 went on to use the Euro - Malta, Cyprus & Ireland. I have no idea how many retained the pound but I would suspect that the number is in the low single digits.

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Sorry - that whole sentence was a bit of a brain freeze on my part. The number which gained independence from the UK is, of course much more than 14. But only 3 went on to use the Euro - Malta, Cyprus & Ireland. I have no idea how many retained the pound but I would suspect that the number is in the low single digits.

It's OK, just stick to the Euro. Yes, I thought it was three. 

[nauseus]

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I wonder how many "millions" DC was actually speaking for.

 

I speak for millions of people across England, Wales and Northern Ireland – and many in Scotland, too who would be utterly heart-broken by the break-up of the United Kingdom.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-full-text-of-david-camerons-no-going-back-speech-9735902.html

This has to be a guess but I would say at least 50. I don't think more than a few of the English would want to see the UK break up. 

[sandyf]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Sorry - that whole sentence was a bit of a brain freeze on my part. The number which gained independence from the UK is, of course much more than 14. But only 3 went on to use the Euro - Malta, Cyprus & Ireland. I have no idea how many retained the pound but I would suspect that the number is in the low single digits.

For those that question currency, they should look at the Maltese transition, one of the smallest countries in the EU.

When I first went to Malta in 1975 they had been independent for 11 years and was still a dual currency regime, both pound and lira were accepted, the Maltese pound became Maltese lira in 1973 and they formed their Central bank in 1968, 4 years after independence. I returned to Malta a couple of years later and by that time the Lira had strengthened against the GBP and parity had been broken. Last time I went before the Euro, GBP I think was down to about 60 cents.

Of course that model would require Westminster co-operation, the real stumbling block.

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

For those that question currency, they should look at the Maltese transition, one of the smallest countries in the EU.

When I first went to Malta in 1975 they had been independent for 11 years and was still a dual currency regime, both pound and lira were accepted, the Maltese pound became Maltese lira in 1973 and they formed their Central bank in 1968, 4 years after independence. I returned to Malta a couple of years later and by that time the Lira had strengthened against the GBP and parity had been broken. Last time I went before the Euro, GBP I think was down to about 60 cents.

Of course that model would require Westminster co-operation, the real stumbling block.

For me, the important thing to remember is that this is not unknown territory - as clearly evidenced, many countries have accomplished what we seek to do, and have made good work of it. I sincerely believe that in any future negotiations, grown up sensibilities and the clear need for ongoing, lasting cooperation between both countries will see acceptable compromises from both sides. 

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Any campaign for English independence would have my support. 

The anger and petulance in your post does read like a teenage rant. Let's hope that when we do enter into independence negotiations, the adults are actually in the room. 

I'd settle for our own (English) Parliament RR; A brand new building somewhere central & easy to reach (Birmingham?)

The Palace of Westminster has had it's day and should be demolished (It's already in a state of disrepair) or turned into a museum & replaced by a modern British Parliament.

 

Dreaming I know but it's about bloody time this started happening.

 

 

[billd766]

12 hours ago, sandyf said:

Apologies, thought everyone that lived in Thailand was familiar with SuperRich

http://www.superrich1965.com/home.php

 

SCO is not an ISO code, may just be a SuperRich code, but at least one exchanger does accept it outside Scotland.

You can also see on their website that Sweden uses the Krona.

No apology necessary.

 

I use TransferWise as a forex reference rate, also XE currency converter, TW for my UK bank where my pensions go to first, BKK bank as the first transfer bank for my pensions as they show TW as an FTT (for Immigration purposes) and I then transfer from BKK bank to our KBank joint account for most things.

 

The hardest problem I have at the moment is to try to teach my wife the pensions routing from the UK to Kbank when I die. She has a mental block when it comes to computers.

 

The problem that a lot of us married to younger Thais is that when we die our bank accounts in Thailand die with us, at least the sole accounts do, I am not sure about joint accounts.

 

2 of my pensions stay with my wife (at a reduced rate) but how to get TW to transfer it into my wife's sole account while still maintaining the sole account for Immigrations need?

[billd766]

12 hours ago, oilinki said:

When Scotland resigns UK, where will England keep her nuclear submarines?

 

What I understood previously, the English and Welsh coasts don't have suitable sites for the subs to have a home. 

 

I guess there will be a technical solution to this, over some time. 

There are always the Navy bases in Plymouth and Portsmouth who would jump at the chance. Imagine the effect of the job gains there and the jobs lost to Scotland.

[david555]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

There are always the Navy bases in Plymouth and Portsmouth who would jump at the chance. Imagine the effect of the job gains there and the jobs lost to Scotland.

"Imagine the effect of the job gains there and the jobs lost to Scotland."

 

I think the E.U. would like to have those bases , as they plan to have their own E.U. army and having already a good number of subs …. so jobs are saved I think ...in case of...

 

[evadgib]

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

No apology necessary.

 

I use TransferWise as a forex reference rate, also XE currency converter, TW for my UK bank where my pensions go to first, BKK bank as the first transfer bank for my pensions as they show TW as an FTT (for Immigration purposes) and I then transfer from BKK bank to our KBank joint account for most things.

 

The hardest problem I have at the moment is to try to teach my wife the pensions routing from the UK to Kbank when I die. She has a mental block when it comes to computers.

 

The problem that a lot of us married to younger Thais is that when we die our bank accounts in Thailand die with us, at least the sole accounts do, I am not sure about joint accounts.

 

2 of my pensions stay with my wife (at a reduced rate) but how to get TW to transfer it into my wife's sole account while still maintaining the sole account for Immigrations need?

<off topic!>

[evadgib]

16 minutes ago, billd766 said:

There are always the Navy bases in Plymouth and Portsmouth who would jump at the chance. Imagine the effect of the job gains there and the jobs lost to Scotland.

Not to mention the colossal cost of the recent refurbishment of Rosyth Submarine base which the rest of UK is unlikely to walk away from without some form of compensation. I'm not up-to-speed re Leuchars etc but the same applies re any expenditure there.

[RuamRudy]

There are always the Navy bases in Plymouth and Portsmouth who would jump at the chance. Imagine the effect of the job gains there and the jobs lost to Scotland.

520 civilian jobs at Faslane are directly related to Trident. Imagine how many jobs could be created if the cost of trident was diverted to something worthwhile instead.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[RuamRudy]

37 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Not to mention the colossal cost of the recent refurbishment of Rosyth Submarine base which the rest of UK is unlikely to walk away from without some form of compensation. I'm not up-to-speed re Leuchars etc but the same applies re any expenditure there.

Compensation for what? Scottish infrastructure was paid for by Scottish contributions to the exchequer. Do we really want to get to the point where Scotland demands 8.5% of all UK worldwide assets as part of the divorce settlement?

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

I'd settle for our own (English) Parliament RR; A brand new building somewhere central & easy to reach (Birmingham?)

The Palace of Westminster has had it's day and should be demolished (It's already in a state of disrepair) or turned into a museum & replaced by a modern British Parliament.

 

Dreaming I know but it's about bloody time this started happening.

 

 

As part of a federal UK? I am not sure that federalism is the answer - at a national level there will still be the same disparity of power we see now unless each of the 4 partners had an equal vote, which would result in a democratic deficit for the English which I am sure would not be entertained. 

 

This article makes interesting reading:

 

The big read: Can federalism ever work in the UK?

[evadgib]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Compensation for what? Scottish infrastructure was paid for by Scottish contributions to the exchequer. Do we really want to get to the point where Scotland demands 8.5% of all UK worldwide assets as part of the divorce settlement?

It will need to be thrashed out properly & hopefully not like the example currently underway between UK & EU.

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

As part of a federal UK? I am not sure that federalism is the answer - at a national level there will still be the same disparity of power we see now unless each of the 4 partners had an equal vote, which would result in a democratic deficit for the English which I am sure would not be entertained. 

 

This article makes interesting reading:

 

The big read: Can federalism ever work in the UK?

I agree re disparity but it cannot be any worse than the largest group having no representation as is currently the case.

[aright]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Is there any reason why you focused solely on the failed states and ignored the many other countries that successfully emerged from under the burden of Westminster rule.

 

List of countries that have gained independence from the United Kingdom

Yes. The response was to comments about countries that use the green back. The US dollar is not Westminsters prime currency.

But if you insist countries which to use your expression emerged successfully from under the burden of Westminster rule did so as a result of the organization of Westminster rule not the currency. India a good example.

[bomber]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes, the EU should be proud of its new unemployment recent low of 7.9% and with only 32% of Spanish youth still out of work. Champagne!

as usual a trivial matter when the big picture is 550 million people,iam not sure what % 17-21 spanish year old's are but its minute yet its the best you can muster,pretty sad.

[aright]

16 hours ago, aright said:

 

The SNP want to keep sterling and retain the Bank of England as the lender of last resort. If agreed the English, Welsh and Irish taxpayer will be ultimately financially responsible for any independent Scottish failed tax and spending policies.

Waiter! Another opt out and tonic please!

 

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Why is it your assumption that Scotland would be a failed state? 

I don't assume it would be a failed state but explain to me why England, Wales and Ireland should bear the burden of risk for the possible failure of a country in which they have no vested interest or levers of control. 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

For me, the important thing to remember is that this is not unknown territory - as clearly evidenced, many countries have accomplished what we seek to do, and have made good work of it. I sincerely believe that in any future negotiations, grown up sensibilities and the clear need for ongoing, lasting cooperation between both countries will see acceptable compromises from both sides. 

It's a pity the UK / EU negotiations did not consist of sensibility, cooperation and acceptable compromises from both sides. But now you would want that from the UK, innit?

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, bomber said:

as usual a trivial matter when the big picture is 550 million people,iam not sure what % 17-21 spanish year old's are but its minute yet its the best you can muster,pretty sad.

I just said 32% of young Spaniards have no job, so it is not a trivial matter for them, only to you. The total population of the EU is wholly irrelevant to them and to my post.   

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It's a pity the UK / EU negotiations did not consist of sensibility, cooperation and acceptable compromises from both sides. But now you would want that from the UK, innit?

The already negotiated deal is exactly that. Compromises from both sides.

[RuamRudy]

49 minutes ago, aright said:

 

I don't assume it would be a failed state but explain to me why England, Wales and Ireland should bear the burden of risk for the possible failure of a country in which they have no vested interest or levers of control. 

Because it is very much in their interest to have a strong and successful neighbour, especially one upon which they rely on for so much?

 

I am not a member of the SNP so not fully up to speed with their whys and wherefores but I understand that at last week's conference they voted to adopt a policy of moving from the pound to a Scottish currency at the earliest possible opportunity post independence. 

[RuamRudy]

Some very good reasons why (1) the UK is loath to let Scotland go; (2) why an rUK would be very foolish to deliberately destabilise an independent Scotland out of spite. 

 

The second one is especially important: England set to run out of water within 25 years – but Scotland has gallons going spare