Anger over Brexit sparks new grassroots drive for Scottish independence

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Seriously, I am not trying to be difficult but I think you have hit the nail on the head with post 177.

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but my understanding from your post is that you think that as England makes up 85% of the population of the UK, then they should make the bulk of decisions for the direction of the UK. If that is indeed your position, I can wholeheartedly understand why you might feel that way. It is seemingly logical that the majority in any country should take the helm.

 

But the UK is not a country, and this is why the UK does not work as a union. Successive governments have tried damned hard to eradicate the national identities of the respective countries, presumably in the vain hope of us all rallying round the Union Flag and eschewing any feeling of regional identity, but that hasn't happened. Even now you can travel 15 miles from one town to another and find a subtly different accent - we are too parochial.

 

Look at Russia in contrast - I lived there for quite a few years and never ceased to be amazed at how little variation in accents there is from one side of the country to the other, one of the effects of Stalin's constant mass relocation of people.

 

In Scotland and Wales there has been no such mass integration of incomers, and there is an increasing feeling of difference from England, and a sense that we are, at best, an afterthought. We can argue as to whether they are indeed treated as afterthoughts, but that doesn't negate the fact that, for many, this feeling is prevalent. 

 

The status quo is not healthy for any of the member countries - England included. Federalism might have been the answer a few years ago but the boat was missed in 2014 and the lies told and promises broken have soured too many people north of the border to ever trust our politicians again. 

 

Hate to burst your bubble but the UK is a country, comprised of four other nations.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Hate to burst your bubble but the UK is a country, comprised of four other nations.

Calling a pig a horse won't guarantee it will get a run at Goodwood. 

If that were the case, this entire thread would be non existent.  

[nauseus]

52 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Calling a pig a horse won't guarantee it will get a run at Goodwood. 

If that were the case, this entire thread would be non existent.  

I just knew that would upset you. But it's true.

[vogie]

Ruth Davidson said:

 

"The majority of Scots don't want this, and if they need a voice to stand up to Nicola Sturgeon, I will be that voice.

"I don't agree with re-running a referendum in which the main signatories - including Nicola Sturgeon - said it would last for a generation. She's done everything she can to rip that agreement up since then."

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48093908

 

 

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Ruth Davidson said:

 

"The majority of Scots don't want this, and if they need a voice to stand up to Nicola Sturgeon, I will be that voice.

"I don't agree with re-running a referendum in which the main signatories - including Nicola Sturgeon - said it would last for a generation. She's done everything she can to rip that agreement up since then."

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48093908

 

 

I like Davidson. She gives Krankie a deserved hard time.

[malagateddy]

Seriously, I am not trying to be difficult but I think you have hit the nail on the head with post 177.
 
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but my understanding from your post is that you think that as England makes up 85% of the population of the UK, then they should make the bulk of decisions for the direction of the UK. If that is indeed your position, I can wholeheartedly understand why you might feel that way. It is seemingly logical that the majority in any country should take the helm.
 
But the UK is not a country, and this is why the UK does not work as a union. Successive governments have tried damned hard to eradicate the national identities of the respective countries, presumably in the vain hope of us all rallying round the Union Flag and eschewing any feeling of regional identity, but that hasn't happened. Even now you can travel 15 miles from one town to another and find a subtly different accent - we are too parochial.
 
Look at Russia in contrast - I lived there for quite a few years and never ceased to be amazed at how little variation in accents there is from one side of the country to the other, one of the effects of Stalin's constant mass relocation of people.
 
In Scotland and Wales there has been no such mass integration of incomers, and there is an increasing feeling of difference from England, and a sense that we are, at best, an afterthought. We can argue as to whether they are indeed treated as afterthoughts, but that doesn't negate the fact that, for many, this feeling is prevalent. 
 
The status quo is not healthy for any of the member countries - England included. Federalism might have been the answer a few years ago but the boat was missed in 2014 and the lies told and promises broken have soured too many people north of the border to ever trust our politicians again. 
 

Lies and broken promises..indeed..
R/R..lets face facts here..imho..approx 75% of all politicians in the UK..from lowly town councillors to the top of the tree are out n out sociopaths.
A certain Alex Salmond was caught " bang to rights " a few months after the indy referendum with regard to his magical massaged GERS figures.
If a politicisn says " good morning " to you..please check the time on your watch.[emoji6][emoji2][emoji2][emoji6]

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[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

Ruth Davidson said:

 

"The majority of Scots don't want this, and if they need a voice to stand up to Nicola Sturgeon, I will be that voice.

"I don't agree with re-running a referendum in which the main signatories - including Nicola Sturgeon - said it would last for a generation. She's done everything she can to rip that agreement up since then."

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48093908

 

 

She also said, "Constitutionally, the UK government should not block it [ a second referendum], no."

 

Then again, she also stated that Brexit would cause significant damage to the Scottish economy, whereas now she is its biggest champion.

 

Ruth goes whichever way the wind blows, unfortunately. 

[RuamRudy]

16 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I like Davidson. She gives Krankie a deserved hard time.

She has been on maternity leave for the past year - are you sure you are talking about the right person?

[malagateddy]

She also said, "Constitutionally, the UK government should not block it [ a second referendum], no."
 
Then again, she also stated that Brexit would cause significant damage to the Scottish economy, whereas now she is its biggest champion.
 
Ruth goes whichever way the wind blows, unfortunately. 

Of course..she's learning quickly from sturgeon re being a sociopath

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[aright]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Seriously, I am not trying to be difficult but I think you have hit the nail on the head with post 177.

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but my understanding from your post is that you think that as England makes up 85% of the population of the UK, then they should make the bulk of decisions for the direction of the UK. If that is indeed your position, I can wholeheartedly understand why you might feel that way. It is seemingly logical that the majority in any country should take the helm.

 

But the UK is not a country, and this is why the UK does not work as a union. Successive governments have tried damned hard to eradicate the national identities of the respective countries, presumably in the vain hope of us all rallying round the Union Flag and eschewing any feeling of regional identity, but that hasn't happened. Even now you can travel 15 miles from one town to another and find a subtly different accent - we are too parochial.

 

Look at Russia in contrast - I lived there for quite a few years and never ceased to be amazed at how little variation in accents there is from one side of the country to the other, one of the effects of Stalin's constant mass relocation of people.

 

In Scotland and Wales there has been no such mass integration of incomers, and there is an increasing feeling of difference from England, and a sense that we are, at best, an afterthought. We can argue as to whether they are indeed treated as afterthoughts, but that doesn't negate the fact that, for many, this feeling is prevalent. 

 

The status quo is not healthy for any of the member countries - England included. Federalism might have been the answer a few years ago but the boat was missed in 2014 and the lies told and promises broken have soured too many people north of the border to ever trust our politicians again. 

 

I have no objection to Scotland becoming independent if that's what the people want but looking at your reasons for it you make a good case for the UK leaving the EU.

 

"But the EU is not a country and this is why the EU does not work as a union"

 

Even now you can travel 15 miles from one member state to another and find a  different language - we are too parochial.

 

"In member states there has been no such mass integration of incomers, and there is an increasing feeling of difference from the EU"

 

Feeling as you do why did you vote remain?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

She has been on maternity leave for the past year - are you sure you are talking about the right person?

Yes. She can speak and be on leave. Truly capable!

[tebee]

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Tebee! I'm surprised at you!

[tebee]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Tebee! I'm surprised at you!

You have to remember I'm a free-thinking European now , not a prudish Brit !

 

It was published it a mainstream (Dutch) newspaper 

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, tebee said:

You have to remember I'm a free-thinking European now , not a prudish Brit !

 

It was published it a mainstream (Dutch) newspaper 

Ah, De Pijbeurt!

[RuamRudy]

Yes. She can speak and be on leave. Truly capable!

She could have done so - but she didn't. She left used car salesman Jackson Carlaw as deputy during the Brexit shenanigans so that she could emerge unscathed by it all.

If you don't believe me, ask her constituents how many surgeries she has held in the last 2 years (hint: it's a number less than one).

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[RuamRudy]

I have no objection to Scotland becoming independent if that's what the people want but looking at your reasons for it you make a good case for the UK leaving the EU.
 
"But the EU is not a country and this is why the EU does not work as a union"
 
Even now you can travel 15 miles from one member state to another and find a  different language - we are too parochial.
 
"In member states there has been no such mass integration of incomers, and there is an increasing feeling of difference from the EU"
 
Feeling as you do why did you vote remain?

I don't recall David Cameron going to Brussels to ask for the EU's permission to hold the Brexit referendum. Can you remind me when that happened, please?

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[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

She could have done so - but she didn't. She left used car salesman Jackson Carlaw as deputy during the Brexit shenanigans so that she could emerge unscathed by it all.

If you don't believe me, ask her constituents how many surgeries she has held in the last 2 years (hint: it's a number less than one).

Sent from my SM-G975F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Well, it ain't no big thang to me. I'll just refer you to the original link and let you wonder if she spoke or not:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48093908

 

[RuamRudy]

Well, it ain't no big thang to me. I'll just refer you to the original link and let you wonder if she spoke or not:
 
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48093908
 

No dispute from me - she said it. That it contradicts her position of just a couple of years ago is no great surprise. That the BBC let her off without mentioning her inability to remain consistent is equally as expected.

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[RuamRudy]

Whilst I have never been a fan of Thatcher, I know that there are many on ThaiVisa who hold her in high esteem. I am sure we can all admire her vision and perspicacity with regards Scottish independence.

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[aright]

43 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't recall David Cameron going to Brussels to ask for the EU's permission to hold the Brexit referendum. Can you remind me when that happened, please?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

He didn't and I'm not saying Scotland should. My point is the reasons you gave for leaving the UK are the same reasons many people gave for leaving the EU. If you feel strongly and project your very laudable reasons for leaving the UK to leaving the EU the question remains.....Why did you vote to stay in the EU?

[RuamRudy]

He didn't and I'm not saying Scotland should. My point is the reasons you gave for leaving the UK are the same reasons many people gave for leaving the EU. If you feel strongly and project your very laudable reasons for leaving the UK to leaving the EU the question remains.....Why did you vote to stay in the EU?

I see the distinctions as very clear and evidenced by my previous post - an independent Scotland will have a very different relationship with the EU than it currently enjoys in the UK.

Despite having received 3 electoral mandates to hold an independence referendum and having a majority of independence supporting MPs and MSPs, we are being denied the opportunity by a government that has not had any electoral mandate in Scotland since the 1950s. That is simply not an equal partnership. The EU does not behave in dictatorial ways like this.

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[aright]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I see the distinctions as very clear and evidenced by my previous post - an independent Scotland will have a very different relationship with the EU than it currently enjoys in the UK.

Despite having received 3 electoral mandates to hold an independence referendum and having a majority of independence supporting MPs and MSPs, we are being denied the opportunity by a government that has not had any electoral mandate in Scotland since the 1950s. That is simply not an equal partnership. The EU does not behave in dictatorial ways like this.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You keep deflecting.

My point has nothing to do with Scotlands future relationship with the EU and you are dead right it's relationship with the EU will be completely different from that with the UK and I don't disagree with Scotland wanting another referendum if the people want it. You seem to want to argue with me on points I agree with you.

In post 180 you gave your reasons for Scotland leaving the UK and I pointed out your reasons were the same as many people who wanted out of the EU so it's reasonable to ask if you strongly feel the reasons you gave why did you vote to stay in the EU? You are obviously finding it difficult substantiating those reasons with respect to your decision on the EU so I won't ask the question again.

[RuamRudy]

You keep deflecting.
My point has nothing to do with Scotlands future relationship with the EU and you are dead right it's relationship with the EU will be completely different from that with the UK and I don't disagree with Scotland wanting another referendum if the people want it. You seem to want to argue with me on points I agree with you.
In post 180 you gave your reasons for Scotland leaving the UK and I pointed out your reasons were the same as many people who wanted out of the EU so it's reasonable to ask if you strongly feel the reasons you gave why did you vote to stay in the EU? You are obviously finding it difficult substantiating those reasons with respect to your decision on the EU so I won't ask the question again.

In order to agree with you, I would need to agree that the nature of Scotland's relationship with the UK was comparable to the UK's position within the EU.

While the complaints may be similar, the validity of the brexieers' complaints are, in my opinion, bogus.

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[aright]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

In order to agree with you, I would need to agree that the nature of Scotland's relationship with the UK was comparable to the UK's position within the EU.

While the complaints may be similar, the validity of the brexieers' complaints are, in my opinion, bogus.

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Just a reminder...…..Scotland doesn't have a binding relationship with the EU....the UK does, and there is no guarantee Scotland would be accepted by the EU after independance and if it were how different the fiscal and legal conditions might be ...….but that's for Scotland to determine...….good luck.

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Just a reminder...…..Scotland doesn't have a binding relationship with the EU....the UK does, and there is no guarantee Scotland would be accepted by the EU after independance and if it were how different the fiscal and legal conditions might be ...….but that's for Scotland to determine...….good luck.

There is no guarantee, correct, although a number of senior EU representatives have said that since Scottish, Laws and tariffs align with EU ones then they can't see there being any problem. This problem is for the future though IMO, Brexit has to be sorted first.

[malagateddy]

She could have done so - but she didn't. She left used car salesman Jackson Carlaw as deputy during the Brexit shenanigans so that she could emerge unscathed by it all.

If you don't believe me, ask her constituents how many surgeries she has held in the last 2 years (hint: it's a number less than one).

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Well now R/R

Sturface rarely appears at her Surgery meetings..too busy you see.
When she does make the very odd appearance to listen to any grievances from her " liitle people "..armed cops everywhere.
Govanhill is in her ' patch "...yet last I knew..she lives in far east of Glasgow in a leafy suburb.
Not for her to live in the squaller beside the '' poor people " of Glasgow who have sadly many neighbours who formally resided in their own countries of origin..eg..fairly new subsidy junkie eastern eu states..but now practise their vile trades in govanhill and other Glasgow areas.
R$R..with respect..take leave of absence from your earner for maybe 6 months and have a look.Walk the walk..NOT talk the talk???!!!



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[aright]

44 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

There is no guarantee, correct, although a number of senior EU representatives have said that since Scottish, Laws and tariffs align with EU ones then they can't see there being any problem. This problem is for the future though IMO, Brexit has to be sorted first.

I agree there is some goodwill and alignment which will stand in Scotlands favour. There are however issues which they will find difficult to overcome. They have no currency and no Central Bank. A Central Bank is needed to carry sufficient reserves to guarantee a country's debts and with the parlous state of the economy it's questioable they will find backers to loan fund and establish the Institution. They can of course keep the pound but that will ensure fiscal policy is controlled in London not in Edinburgh.The Bank of England certainly won't be considering the needs of an independent Scotland when they make fiscal policy. I find it difficult to see that a small country can defy the power of the large capitalist markets. It's not for me to encourage or discourage their independence ambition but I do see difficulties ahead not the least of which is getting all the member states to approve, but nevertheless I wish them well. I will of course change my mind if they decide to cancel the Edinburgh Festival.  

[evadgib]

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Seriously, I am not trying to be difficult but I think you have hit the nail on the head with post 177.

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but my understanding from your post is that you think that as England makes up 85% of the population of the UK, then they should make the bulk of decisions for the direction of the UK. If that is indeed your position, I can wholeheartedly understand why you might feel that way. It is seemingly logical that the majority in any country should take the helm.

 

But the UK is not a country, and this is why the UK does not work as a union. Successive governments have tried damned hard to eradicate the national identities of the respective countries, presumably in the vain hope of us all rallying round the Union Flag and eschewing any feeling of regional identity, but that hasn't happened. Even now you can travel 15 miles from one town to another and find a subtly different accent - we are too parochial.

 

Look at Russia in contrast - I lived there for quite a few years and never ceased to be amazed at how little variation in accents there is from one side of the country to the other, one of the effects of Stalin's constant mass relocation of people.

 

In Scotland and Wales there has been no such mass integration of incomers, and there is an increasing feeling of difference from England, and a sense that we are, at best, an afterthought. We can argue as to whether they are indeed treated as afterthoughts, but that doesn't negate the fact that, for many, this feeling is prevalent. 

 

The status quo is not healthy for any of the member countries - England included. Federalism might have been the answer a few years ago but the boat was missed in 2014 and the lies told and promises broken have soured too many people north of the border to ever trust our politicians again. 

 

I appreciate the time you take with some of your better answers RR. Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying but I have visitors and have been out for much of the day. Your points seem to have been covered by others so i'll keep this short but hats off to you for the effort you put in to some of your replies.

(You'd better frame this as I don't do it very often!)

Eva

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, aright said:

He didn't and I'm not saying Scotland should. My point is the reasons you gave for leaving the UK are the same reasons many people gave for leaving the EU. If you feel strongly and project your very laudable reasons for leaving the UK to leaving the EU the question remains.....Why did you vote to stay in the EU?

There appears be a certain amount of confusion on this forum over the difference between support for independence and the right to independence.

I voted to remain in the EU and I certainly did not support independence for Scotland under the Alex Salmond proposals. That does not mean I do not support the right for Scotland to determine its own future, support for actual independence would only come with a credible proposal.

Many dismiss the concept out of hand without any real thought. It cannot be disputed that there would be problems but any push for independence can only come on the back of EU membership. That being the case it should be borne in mind that unlike other EU applicants the EU is fully aware of Scotland's financial circumstances and it wouldn't be out of the question that assistance from the ECB could be provided to cover the transition.

At the end of the day, as in the previous referendum, a detailed white paper would need to be published so informed decisions can be made.

With a GDP comparable to the UK as a whole and greater than many of the EU member states why is it considered inconceivable that Scotland could not stand on it's own 2 feet.  Debt is a financial hurdle but not a show stopper, and of course the UK government has a vested interest in keeping control of the Oil and Gas sector revenues.

 

Official forecasts anticipate that revenues from oil and gas companies will turn positive in 2017–18 and remain positive until 2022/23.

https://eiti.org/news/uk-oil-gas-negative-government-revenue-rosy-future