Anger over Brexit sparks new grassroots drive for Scottish independence

[aright]

13 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Honestly..sturgeon should be a stand up comedian..maybe herself and roy chubby brown could do a greatest " hits " tour together??

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Yes! Theme songs Abba's "Take a chance on me" or the Bee Gees "I started a joke" 

Seriously, I'm only joking!

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, malagateddy said:

 

 

Do you really mean that scotland is getting some of the UK's money back re these 188 projects??
Where does the eeeuuu get the cash..FROM the taxpayers of the UK and Germany.
You seem to like to sparkle a turd with confetti methinks.

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An ignorant interpretation lack of sensible comment is no excuse for the distasteful rhetoric.

[billd766]

I see quite a few posts about Scotland leaving the UK, and Scotland's right to choose, but what I don't see very much of is the UK's right to get rid of Scotland from the Union.

 

I have seen the odd post on TVF and on several other forums about Scots Indy Ref 2, but I wonder how the Scots would feel if the rest of the union decided that the Scots will go, like it or not, for Indy Ref 2 let the rest of the UK vote and simply kick Scotland out then started to send them the bills for defence, for splitting the oil revenue (which does NOT belong to Scotland alone), to refuse the BoE to support the Scottish pound.

 

Basically to say to Nicola Sturgeon, OK, you want independence, you have it and on your own heads be it. The Union does not want Scotland. From this date on you are on your own with no support from the rest of the union at all. You are no longer represented in the UK parliament, you receive no funding from the union, all the defence establishments will be repatriated to England, all the jobs will go too.

[sandyf]

In his speech today, Adam price sad that Wales would be better off as an independent EU state than an English subordinate.

Now where have I heard something similar.

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

Thanks for the link Sandy.

 

What currency backs the SCO?

Apologies, thought everyone that lived in Thailand was familiar with SuperRich

http://www.superrich1965.com/home.php

 

SCO is not an ISO code, may just be a SuperRich code, but at least one exchanger does accept it outside Scotland.

You can also see on their website that Sweden uses the Krona.

[sandyf]

17 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I see quite a few posts about Scotland leaving the UK, and Scotland's right to choose, but what I don't see very much of is the UK's right to get rid of Scotland from the Union.

 

I have seen the odd post on TVF and on several other forums about Scots Indy Ref 2, but I wonder how the Scots would feel if the rest of the union decided that the Scots will go, like it or not, for Indy Ref 2 let the rest of the UK vote and simply kick Scotland out then started to send them the bills for defence, for splitting the oil revenue (which does NOT belong to Scotland alone), to refuse the BoE to support the Scottish pound.

 

Basically to say to Nicola Sturgeon, OK, you want independence, you have it and on your own heads be it. The Union does not want Scotland. From this date on you are on your own with no support from the rest of the union at all. You are no longer represented in the UK parliament, you receive no funding from the union, all the defence establishments will be repatriated to England, all the jobs will go too.

"but what I don't see very much of is the UK's right to get rid of Scotland from the Union."

That would only ever arise if if it was in Westminster's interest, which it obviously isn't as David Cameron begged the Scots to remain and Theresa may refuses to discuss the matter.

 

"for splitting the oil revenue (which does NOT belong to Scotland alone),"

Take it you believe that Westminster are not "most people" and were right to breach the Geneva Agreement.

 

The Geneva agreement on natural resources under the sea dictates that they are divided by the median lines. Most people accept that the Geneva approach is the standard approach. Which gives Scotland 91% of revenues. But this thing, the income, is declining now. It's also very volatile. If you look at budget deficits it makes a huge difference.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/mar/02/oil-revenues-if-scotland-became-independent

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I see quite a few posts about Scotland leaving the UK, and Scotland's right to choose, but what I don't see very much of is the UK's right to get rid of Scotland from the Union.

When two entities are in relationship, which doesn't seem to work anymore, both sides are allowed to rethink the relationship. 

 

This is the same issue as UK leaving the EU. First UK wanted to leave and quite soon EU is going to push UK to leave. Both sides can be understanding of the differences and both sides should protect their own interests in case there is no common understanding what is good for all.

 

UK (England) will leave the UK. Scotland sees that it's better to be part of the greater union and leaves UK to be able to be a member of the EU. 

 

Nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day, I think it works quite well for both us EU member states and Scotland. We'll see.

 

 

[Guest]

When Scotland resigns UK, where will England keep her nuclear submarines?

 

What I understood previously, the English and Welsh coasts don't have suitable sites for the subs to have a home. 

 

I guess there will be a technical solution to this, over some time. 

[aright]

42 minutes ago, sandyf said:

In his speech today, Adam price sad that Wales would be better off as an independent EU state than an English subordinate.

Now where have I heard something similar.

You may have heard it when Algeria, Mali, South Sudan, Namibia and Niger et al got there independence. All these countries fall far short of being liberal democracies, and all have experienced in the recent past, or continue to experience, some form of war.  Independence is no guarantee of happiness Brexit or Scotland.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, aright said:

You may have heard it when Algeria, Mali, South Sudan, Namibia and Niger et al got there independence. All these countries fall far short of being liberal democracies, and all have experienced in the recent past, or continue to experience, some form of war.  Independence is no guarantee of happiness Brexit or Scotland.

You could add USA to that list, with probably many others.

 

Then again, you wouldn't be able to add Czechoslovakia split to it. The separation went so well that few still remembers it. 

 

Funny things happen when people want freedom to themselves.

[elliss]

On 4/25/2019 at 1:58 PM, alant said:

Trying to understand why being anti Brexit and Pro independence for Scotland is compatible/ The EU said at the time of the 1st referendum that an independent Scotland does not automatically qualify for continued membership.

 

 What ever  happened  to  wales ,  are they still in the  UK , 

   Somebody , must  like them . 555

 

[baboon]

22 minutes ago, oilinki said:

When Scotland resigns UK, where will England keep her nuclear submarines?

The US? Or forge a partnership with a fast food chain or a few football clubs to sort something out?

[aright]

14 minutes ago, oilinki said:

You could add USA to that list, with probably many others.

 

Then again, you wouldn't be able to add Czechoslovakia split to it. The separation went so well that few still remembers it. 

 

Funny things happen when people want freedom to themselves.

Why would you add Czechoslovakia?

In 2003,  78 percent of Czechs voted in in favor of joining the European Union, the mood in the country was optimistic. The country’s economy had shown impressive growth rates; foreign investment had been booming. Joining the EU in May  2004, was seen as a symbolic step underlining successful reforms that had been adopted during the process of accession.

In 2017 the mood was far less optimistic. The Czech economy has not fully recovered from the economic crisis in 2008. The country suffers from rampant corruption, weak and inefficient state bureaucracy and political instability. According to the latest surveys, about two-thirds of Czechs do not trust the EU, citing too much bureaucracy and overregulation as the main problems of the EU.

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, aright said:

Why would you add Czechoslovakia?

In 2003,  78 percent of Czechs voted in in favor of joining the European Union, the mood in the country was optimistic. The country’s economy had shown impressive growth rates; foreign investment had been booming. Joining the EU in May  2004, was seen as a symbolic step underlining successful reforms that had been adopted during the process of accession.

In 2017 the mood was far less optimistic. The Czech economy has not fully recovered from the economic crisis in 2008. The country suffers from rampant corruption, weak and inefficient state bureaucracy and political instability. According to the latest surveys, about two-thirds of Czechs do not trust the EU, citing too much bureaucracy and overregulation as the main problems of the EU.

 

 

 

Czechoslovakia split in a peaceful manner. Soviet union did so as well. 

 

Naturally, with the CCCP, there has been quite a few complications along the way. Latest being the war in eastern Ukraine, where Ruskies are trying to penetrate their power towards. 

 

EU is doing well and our co-operation gives prosperity to all of us. Naturally there are some lesser developed entities, but they'll get there not in that far in the future. 

 

Both Check republic and Slovakia are doing great as members of the EU. There is no doubt of that. 

[bomber]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

An ignorant interpretation lack of sensible comment is no excuse for the distasteful rhetoric.

i blame his drinking

[bomber]

19 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Czechoslovakia split in a peaceful manner. Soviet union did so as well. 

 

Naturally, with the CCCP, there has been quite a few complications along the way. Latest being the war in eastern Ukraine, where Ruskies are trying to penetrate their power towards. 

 

EU is doing well and our co-operation gives prosperity to all of us. Naturally there are some lesser developed entities, but they'll get there not in that far in the future. 

 

Both Check republic and Slovakia are doing great as members of the EU. There is no doubt of that. 

you tell them mate,aright and his chums constantly tell us on here how unhappy all the EU nations are,they dream it up to make themselves try and feel better,EU unemployment is at its lowest since 2000 and the euro and the majority of other nations currencies in the EU are doing well,unlike the battered British pound.

[aright]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

Czechoslovakia split in a peaceful manner. Soviet union did so as well. 

 

Naturally, with the CCCP, there has been quite a few complications along the way. Latest being the war in eastern Ukraine, where Ruskies are trying to penetrate their power towards. 

 

EU is doing well and our co-operation gives prosperity to all of us. Naturally there are some lesser developed entities, but they'll get there not in that far in the future. 

 

Both Check republic and Slovakia are doing great as members of the EU. There is no doubt of that. 

 

37 minutes ago, bomber said:

you tell them mate,aright and his chums constantly tell us on here how unhappy all the EU nations are,they dream it up to make themselves try and feel better,EU unemployment is at its lowest since 2000 and the euro and the majority of other nations currencies in the EU are doing well,unlike the battered British pound.

 

Its not us lying its the press giving us false information or dreaming as you call it, so I will set the record straight.

 

The EU is not a basket case politically, financially and socially.

The four big economies - Germany, France, Italy and Spain - are not in desperate shape and will be in far better shape when we leave. 

Italian industrial production is not down 2.6 percent year on year, the same as Spain.

French output was not down by 1.3 percent in November and the so-called continental powerhouse of Germany did not fall 1.9 percent that month.

Italy did not  slip into recession in December for the third time in a decade and it is wrong to say France and Germany are not far behind.

Youth unemployment in Spain is not forecast to hit almost 30 percent by the end of next year.

Adult unemployment in Greece is not almost 19 percent.

Banks across the eurozone are not owed £400billion by Italy.

In France support for Frexit is not rising.

Ireland's economic growth is not predicted to shrink by four percent if there's a no-deal Brexit.

Recent elections are not an indication of peoples feelings.

It's shameful how the press lie isn't it and even more shameful people in the EU don't expose these lies. I wonder why that is?

[bomber]

17 minutes ago, aright said:

 

 

Its not us lying its the press giving us false information or dreaming as you call it, so I will set the record straight.

 

The EU is not a basket case politically, financially and socially.

The four big economies - Germany, France, Italy and Spain - are not in desperate shape and will be in far better shape when we leave. 

Italian industrial production is not down 2.6 percent year on year, the same as Spain.

French output was not down by 1.3 percent in November and the so-called continental powerhouse of Germany did not fall 1.9 percent that month.

Italy did not  slip into recession in December for the third time in a decade and it is wrong to say France and Germany are not far behind.

Youth unemployment in Spain is not forecast to hit almost 30 percent by the end of next year.

Adult unemployment in Greece is not almost 19 percent.

Banks across the eurozone are not owed £400billion by Italy.

In France support for Frexit is not rising.

Ireland's economic growth is not predicted to shrink by four percent if there's a no-deal Brexit.

Recent elections are not an indication of peoples feelings.

It's shameful how the press lie isn't it and even more shameful people in the EU don't expose these lies. I wonder why that is?

other than italy most nations are performing ok and the eastern nations enjoying are doing very well,banks owed money ???????? what is the world coming to,frexit isnt going to happen as even you know fine well,greece has done remarkable to get its rate down to 19% considering the idiotic actions of its past goverments,as for ireland if it suffers then so will the UK,unemployment in spain and portugal is actually falling as it is across the EU to a 19 year low,i think your over hyped gloomy picture of the EU is more project hope than reality,but that sums you up perfectly a bulldog dreamer

[aright]

6 minutes ago, bomber said:

other than italy most nations are performing ok and the eastern nations enjoying are doing very well,banks owed money ???????? what is the world coming to,frexit isnt going to happen as even you know fine well,greece has done remarkable to get its rate down to 19% considering the idiotic actions of its past goverments,as for ireland if it suffers then so will the UK,unemployment in spain and portugal is actually falling as it is across the EU to a 19 year low,i think your over hyped gloomy picture of the EU is more project hope than reality,but that sums you up perfectly a bulldog dreamer

How could you possibly sum me up?

You can't count to twenty without taking off your shoes.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, aright said:

 

 

Its not us lying its the press giving us false information or dreaming as you call it, so I will set the record straight.

 

The EU is not a basket case politically, financially and socially.

The four big economies - Germany, France, Italy and Spain - are not in desperate shape and will be in far better shape when we leave. 

Italian industrial production is not down 2.6 percent year on year, the same as Spain.

French output was not down by 1.3 percent in November and the so-called continental powerhouse of Germany did not fall 1.9 percent that month.

Italy did not  slip into recession in December for the third time in a decade and it is wrong to say France and Germany are not far behind.

Youth unemployment in Spain is not forecast to hit almost 30 percent by the end of next year.

Adult unemployment in Greece is not almost 19 percent.

Banks across the eurozone are not owed £400billion by Italy.

In France support for Frexit is not rising.

Ireland's economic growth is not predicted to shrink by four percent if there's a no-deal Brexit.

Recent elections are not an indication of peoples feelings.

It's shameful how the press lie isn't it and even more shameful people in the EU don't expose these lies. I wonder why that is?

Each of us EU member countries are allowed and should be allowed to be as we want to be.

 

We Finns are are quite different compared to the Northern African Italians, like we see them.

 

Now, we can offer the others our logic. The others can offer us the knowledge of stop and love the beauty around us. 

 

At the end of the day, we both win. We don't have to fight against each others. We both are allowed to learn from each others. 

 

That's what EU is to us. Do not be a silly person to think that we would be naive and unable to think beyond war. We think what comes after peace. 

[aright]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

Each of us EU member countries are allowed and should be allowed to be as we want to be.

 

We Finns are are quite different compared to the Northern African Italians, like we see them.

 

Now, we can offer the others our logic. The others can offer us the knowledge of stop and love the beauty around us. 

 

At the end of the day, we both win. We don't have to fight against each others. We both are allowed to learn from each others. 

 

That's what EU is to us. Do not be a silly person to think that we would be naive and unable to think beyond war. We think what comes after peace. 

Of course you are right each member country should democratically decide what it’s people want. In the case of my country we decided by a majority vote we wanted to leave the EU. Unfortunately some people in the UK do not want to stand by the democratic process when it doesn’t agree with their own view. You can argue the economic, legislative and social impact of that decision, as evidenced by contributions on this forum, until you are blue in the face ,without agreement, but at the end of the day what the majority of people in the UK (Leavers and Remainers) want is democratic accountability.

I am not trying to get EU lovers to change their mind. I just want to be left to help implement the democratic referendum mandate…...to leave the EU...…...I have received all the advice I need from political parties, the EU and the general public and it has not changed my mind.

[bomber]

54 minutes ago, aright said:

Of course you are right each member country should democratically decide what it’s people want. In the case of my country we decided by a majority vote we wanted to leave the EU. Unfortunately some people in the UK do not want to stand by the democratic process when it doesn’t agree with their own view. You can argue the economic, legislative and social impact of that decision, as evidenced by contributions on this forum, until you are blue in the face ,without agreement, but at the end of the day what the majority of people in the UK (Leavers and Remainers) want is democratic accountability.

I am not trying to get EU lovers to change their mind. I just want to be left to help implement the democratic referendum mandate…...to leave the EU...…...I have received all the advice I need from political parties, the EU and the general public and it has not changed my mind.

your dream is still alive,vote brexit part,ukip or EDL at the next GE and hope for the best,good luck your going to need it ????????

[malagateddy]

An ignorant interpretation lack of sensible comment is no excuse for the distasteful rhetoric.

Well now sandyf..good enough for the Boris..good enough for everyone else.
Please tell me who would be the BANK OF LAST RESORT if ever scotland did vote re indyref2..and the vote was in favour of independance??
What would be the currency?
Would there automatically be another referendum re joining the eeeeuuuu?
Now finance..do you admit that taxation both business and personal would increase..bearing in mind that taxation in scotland is higher than the rest of the UK!!
Do you honestly think that people are STUPID enough to vote for something that would leave them with only 35% or 30% of their wages/salaries.
Will sturgface and her cohorts BE HONEST with the voters of scotland and admit that independance would mean approx 15 years of REAL HARD austerity..aka..Greece without the sun.
Over to you..have a lovely day.

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[Scott]

Off-topic post reported and removed.   If you have personal questions, use the PM function.

 

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, oilinki said:

When Scotland resigns UK, where will England keep her nuclear submarines?

 

What I understood previously, the English and Welsh coasts don't have suitable sites for the subs to have a home. 

 

I guess there will be a technical solution to this, over some time. 

Faslane is the best location but there are options. 

[RuamRudy]

13 hours ago, aright said:

No...both Jeremy and I think it's inconsistency of thought????

However I do concede you are consistent in that you don't accept the results of the Brexit referendum or the 2014 Scottish referendum...……..Let's keep voting till we get it right. 

I have been very clear that while I think Brexit is detrimental to the interests of everyone across the UK, I would not seek to impose the will of the Scottish electorate on the Welsh or English. 

 

In 2014 Gordon Brown, with the full backing of David Cameron, said that if we voted to remain in the UK we would have the most powerful devolved parliament in the world, and federalism in all but name. That our people and our parliament's democratically expressed will is being ignored without a moment's hesitation shows that the words of Brown were lies designed to deceive Scottish voters into staying in the UK. Therefore the first referendum was invalidated by the river of lies and subsequent broken promises by the UK government. 

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, aright said:

You may have heard it when Algeria, Mali, South Sudan, Namibia and Niger et al got there independence. All these countries fall far short of being liberal democracies, and all have experienced in the recent past, or continue to experience, some form of war.  Independence is no guarantee of happiness Brexit or Scotland.

You may well be right but going off at a tangent.

The relevant point is that we now have every country in the UK complaining about being dictated to, England by the EU and the rest by England.

Surely their is a message in there somewhere, the "U" in UK certainly no longer means united, more like undemocratic.

[RuamRudy]

12 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Shame then that there will be a " hard border ".
Now R/R,
FINANCIALLY..
Scotland exports approx 75% of its produce to the rest if the UK..and only 25% to the eeeeuuuu.
Another point..could you tell me which bank or financial concern would be the BANK OF LAST RESORT????
Cheers mucker

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Will England stop importing Scottish produce? What about the English produce that flows north? 

 

As all Brexiteers seem to state, there is no need for a hard border between NI and ROI - why would there need to be one between Scotland and England in that case?

 

And what about the essential supplies that Scotland provides to England? Electricity, water, oil and gas - from where will England source these if they choose to be awkward?

 

The fact is that 14 countries have declared independence from the UK in the last 100 years. All but one created their own currencies from nothing; 6 have gone on to join the Euro; all are doing comparatively well and NONE have expressed regret at breaking from the UK or sought to be returned to Westminster rule. Why do you think that Scotland would not fare equally as well?

[RuamRudy]

12 hours ago, aright said:

 

The SNP want to keep sterling and retain the Bank of England as the lender of last resort. If agreed the English, Welsh and Irish taxpayer will be ultimately financially responsible for any independent Scottish failed tax and spending policies.

Waiter! Another opt out and tonic please!

Why is it your assumption that Scotland would be a failed state? 

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, bomber said:

other than italy most nations are performing ok and the eastern nations enjoying are doing very well,banks owed money ???????? what is the world coming to,frexit isnt going to happen as even you know fine well,greece has done remarkable to get its rate down to 19% considering the idiotic actions of its past goverments,as for ireland if it suffers then so will the UK,unemployment in spain and portugal is actually falling as it is across the EU to a 19 year low,i think your over hyped gloomy picture of the EU is more project hope than reality,but that sums you up perfectly a bulldog dreamer

Yes, the EU should be proud of its new unemployment recent low of 7.9% and with only 32% of Spanish youth still out of work. Champagne!