Change from 800,00 annually to 65000 monthly.

[poppysdad]

I will be doing my annual extension next week in Hua Hin and will use the bank letter and seasoned 800,000 as I've done for the past 13 years. But the more i think about the recent changes the more anti I've become to tying up 800,000 for around 6 months and then a 400,000 for the rest of my life that i can never touch even in an emergency without probable repercussions.

Yet as i understand it if i go down the monthly income road, i don't need to keep large amounts in the bank here and i can simply spend down to the last baht each month if i so desire.

My question is as i will be doing next weeks extension with the 800,000 in the bank but also as of next week i will also start bringing in a minimum of 65000 every month. Will i still be required to keep 800,000 for the next following 90 days plus keep 400,000 until this time next year, I intend do do so but not for immigration requirements but for simply having ample funds available to use when and if i want/need to.

I have scoured the search areas for an answer to above but if there i cannot find it. Thanks.

[mtls2005]

Interesting question, to which there may not be a verifiable, consistent answer today.

 

I probably would stick with the 800k rules (90 days or is it 3 months, then min 400k, then 2/3 months seasoning before your annual ext in May, 2020. Then, next May, after getting an extension on the income method, maybe it would be safe to spend your 800k when/how you wish?

 

Of course, the "rules" could, and probably will, change again as Imm. plugs the holes in the dike they've created with this year's modifications. So YMMV.

 

 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

I would keep the 800k baht in the bank for 3 months since that appears to be immigrations primary concern since some office are telling people to come back 3 months after the day they apply for the extension. That part of the rules is to insure you did not put it in the bank just long enough to qualify for the extension.

As far as the 400k baht and transferring at least 65k baht to meet that requirement I suggest your local immigration about it.

[mtls2005]

41 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

I probably would stick with the 800k rules (90 days or is it 3 months, then min 400k, then 2/3 months seasoning before your annual ext in May, 2020. Then, next May, after getting an extension on the income method, maybe it would be safe to spend your 800k when/how you wish?

 

Apologies, I should have added... "...while initiating and maintaining a monthly history of qualifying foreign transfers, preferably beginning in May 2019, or possibly June 2019, if that through May 2020 would give your twelve (12) qualifying foreign transfers."

[watcharacters]

41 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

some office are telling people to come back 3 months after the day they apply for the extension. 

 

Doesn't everyone with a retirement extension by default have to come back in 3 months for the 90 day report?

 

The question asked by the OP seems to highlight the great unknown or grey area of immigration requirements in thailand today.

 

 

[Bluetongue]

5 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

Doesn't everyone with a retirement extension by default have to come back in 3 months for the 90 day report?

 

The question asked by the OP seems to highlight the great unknown or grey area of immigration requirements in thailand today.

 

 

Not if you're not here, another grey area. The source of the transferred money, even down to how your bank codes it, mine is from Transferwise I didn't update the passbook in time so it just reads ACM (accumulation I assume) but on the statement it says transfer from Dummy Account, I can imagine what the IO will make of that, another grey area. Also if the monthly amount fluctuates what happens there, mine does due to exchange rate of course. What about the day of the month will that matter ie the 20th or the 30th or some day in between. I will have to ask my IO but he doesn't like answering more than 1 question.

[stephenterry]

2 minutes ago, Bluetongue said:

Not if you're not here, another grey area. The source of the transferred money, even down to how your bank codes it, mine is from Transferwise I didn't update the passbook in time so it just reads ACM (accumulation I assume) but on the statement it says transfer from Dummy Account, I can imagine what the IO will make of that, another grey area. Also if the monthly amount fluctuates what happens there, mine does due to exchange rate of course. What about the day of the month will that matter ie the 20th or the 30th or some day in between. I will have to ask my IO but he doesn't like answering more than 1 question.

Same thing happened to me. I got a statement printout covering the 'missed' period from BKB. The transferred entries read  'Foreign TT'.  I believe as long as the transfers in any one month add up to 65k or more, that meets the rules - I hope!

 

As I intend to use an agency from now on that should be a belt and braces approach, rather than trusting the IO is in a good mood.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

some office are telling people to come back 3 months after the day they apply for the extension. That part of the rules is to insure you did not put it in the bank just long enough to qualify for the extension.

Lemme see -- 2 months seasoning before renewal, followed by a 3 month fermentation process. All in all, they want to see that you have the means to get by with 800k untouched for 5 months. But wait -- why not, then, have a 5 month seasoning period prior to renewal? Then, it's only once a year to Immigration, not twice. Thus, one half the number of required visits to Immigration, resulting in less workload, and a higher service efficiency (or a smaller, less costly Immigration officer cadre), plus less hassle finding a parking spot (I live in CM), and overall, one-half the annual Immigration visit hassle.....

 

.....nevermind. I'm now fully awake. Sigh.

 

[stephenterry]

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Lemme see -- 2 months seasoning before renewal, followed by a 3 month fermentation process. All in all, they want to see that you have the means to get by with 800k untouched for 5 months. But wait -- why not, then, have a 5 month seasoning period prior to renewal? Then, it's only once a year to Immigration, not twice. Thus, one half the number of required visits to Immigration, resulting in less workload, and a higher service efficiency (or a smaller, less costly Immigration officer cadre), plus less hassle finding a parking spot (I live in CM), and overall, one-half the annual Immigration visit hassle.....

 

.....nevermind. I'm now fully awake. Sigh.

 

That's being efficient, which I doubt isn't the Thai way...

[BertM]

I guess switching from bank method to income method can be tricky. Do you keep the 800k in for 3 mths afterwards, do you keep the 400k in until the next extension, do you season the 800k for 2 mths prior to the next extension, all the while transferring 65k into the same account or a different account for those who are using a fixed deposit accounts? And, then you have to worry if using TransferWise or some other method where some of the transfers could possibly be coded as domestic. That would be too much worry and stress for me. Good luck on switching...

Edited April 30, 2019 by BertM

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, watcharacters said:

Doesn't everyone with a retirement extension by default have to come back in 3 months for the 90 day report?

In many cases the 90 day report might not be due 3 months after the date of application for the extension. It could more than likely be due during the 3 months unless a person has managed to keep the reports in sync with when the extension application is due.

[jacko45k]

The current requirement is to maintain the 800k for 3 months after application is accepted, then 400k for the rest of the of that extension year. Some offices are asking retirees to return after 3 months to show they still have the 800k, It is too soon to know what would be required wrt showing compliance  after that. 

The concern is the next application for an extension. Even if it is based on income, a pedant might notice if you failed to complete the terms of the previous extension, and regard it as deceptive and it would compromise a future application. Nobody can predict this. 

I agree, if you got the 800k, leave it, carry on, until such a time as you decide you no longer need an Extension, then take it out, and leave. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by jacko45k

[poppysdad]

My objection is saying goodbye to 400,000 baht which is what it means. I have no intention of leaving Thailand so I never get that money back nor can I use it even for an emergency without probably losing my right to stay and having to start the process over again. The only good thing about it is that my Thai wife is guaranteed 400,000 but then she would be getting it anyway along with the rest of my assets.

[mtls2005]

2 hours ago, watcharacters said:

Doesn't everyone with a retirement extension by default have to come back in 3 months for the 90 day report?

 

One can use the online system, or registerd mail, or maybe they've left the country and re-entered so their next (in person) 90-day report date may be 4 - 6 months later. I guess Imm. could demand a statement and inspect the account level at 90 days? But more likely they'll just check it during the next extension.

[JohnnyBD]

5 hours ago, poppysdad said:

My objection is saying goodbye to 400,000 baht which is what it means. I have no intention of leaving Thailand so I never get that money back nor can I use it even for an emergency without probably losing my right to stay and having to start the process over again. The only good thing about it is that my Thai wife is guaranteed 400,000 but then she would be getting it anyway along with the rest of my assets.

I'm like you. I don't like having to lock up 400k either, but it's not a big deal for me. I set aside money for my wife each year anyway, so basically I just use some of the money I have set aside for her to satisfy my yearly extensions. She's happy to see me setting money aside for her and I get to use it for my yearly renewals. So, it's a win-win for both of us.

I could easily do the monthly swift transfers (without paying any wire fees due to my Private Client status), but since I already have enough money here it makes no sense to bother with the income method.

Edited April 30, 2019 by JohnnyBD

[Jack Mountain]

The 65K a month method does that mean a minimal 65K transfer from abroad every month or is an average of 65K/month over the last 12 months also acceptable?

[mtls2005]

Most interpretations I've seen mean 65,000 each and every month, so 55,000 one month, and then 75,000 the next month is not satisfactory.

 

I assume they'll start looking at withdrawal patterns at some point?

 

Also, the Fab103 video - second half, mentions that qualifying foreign transfers should arrive at approximately the same time of each month with the first and the ninth mentioned, perhaps in one single transfer?

 

 

[jacko45k]

17 minutes ago, Jack Mountain said:

The 65K a month method does that mean a minimal 65K transfer from abroad every month or is an average of 65K/month over the last 12 months also acceptable?

Minimum every month.

[MadMuhammad]

22 hours ago, watcharacters said:

 

Doesn't everyone with a retirement extension by default have to come back in 3 months for the 90 day report?

 

The question asked by the OP seems to highlight the great unknown or grey area of immigration requirements in thailand today.

 

 

I don’t understand why it’s a grey area. Just follow the rules of this extension until he starts he’s next extension following the stipulated rules for whatever method he chooses.

why make things so complicated?

[cmarshall]

I am also planning to switch from the 800k method to monthly transfers when my current year is up next Feb.  It seems logical to me to interpret the requirements as follows:

 

1.  The requirement to maintain 800k for 3 months following the last extension is a feature of that last extension.  So, you have to maintain the 800k for 3 months.

2.  You also have to maintain the 400k for the rest of the year since that is also a feature of the last extension.

3.  Since your next extension will be based on the income method you don't need to top it back up to 800k before the next extension.

4.  You need to show at least 65k coming in every month for the year.

 

So, that seems to me the only reasonable interpretation of the two sets of rules.  However, we don't know whether the official will take this view or another interpretation.  If one wanted to take the safest possible approach, he could make the 65k transfers every month as well as meet the 800k/400k requirements including for 2/3 months before the renewal.  Presumably the extension would go through without a problem, but as far as I remember from last time the official reviews the documents and grants the extension or not.  There is no declaration of the method under which you are applying.  So, if you meet both conditions the official could grant the extension on the basis of the 800k deposits and then next year you are back in the same boat.

 

So, the answer to the question is we don't know.  Although we will hear about more cases as time goes by, there may never be a definitive answer.

[Old Croc]

Like the OP I've always used the 800k method, but can see the advantages of the 65k pm income method now that (for some) you don't have to involve the Embassy.

Currently my 800k is permanently ensconced in the bank, but I also import the equivalent of more than 65k for living expenses in lump sums 3 or 4 times a year. Ergo, it makes sense to use this income for the extension, thus freeing up the lump sum to splurge on other things. As there are no restrictions regarding keeping this monthly income in the bank, it can serve a dual purpose. 

With my extension due right now, obviously I will again use the 800k method, but if I start to fit into the income method restrictions (monthly transfers) from this month, I could do it that way next year.

Disadvantages -  It must be transferred every month around the same time and not necessarily when exchange rates are favourable. 

As pointed out by another poster, TransferWise  payments don't get recorded as international transactions by many banks and it may be hard to convince inflexible IOs that the deposits are international. 

If a transfer is late or missed for one month, apparently it will void your next extension even if the money is sent later. 

I'll see what happens when things settle down.

 

Edit:  I hadn't read the post immediately above when I lodged mine. He covers much of the same content as I.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Old Croc

[JohnnyBD]

 

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

I am also planning to switch from the 800k method to monthly transfers when my current year is up next Feb.  It seems logical to me to interpret the requirements as follows:

 

1.  The requirement to maintain 800k for 3 months following the last extension is a feature of that last extension.  So, you have to maintain the 800k for 3 months.

2.  You also have to maintain the 400k for the rest of the year since that is also a feature of the last extension.

3.  Since your next extension will be based on the income method you don't need to top it back up to 800k before the next extension.

4.  You need to show at least 65k coming in every month for the year.

 

So, that seems to me the only reasonable interpretation of the two sets of rules.  However, we don't know whether the official will take this view or another interpretation.  If one wanted to take the safest possible approach, he could make the 65k transfers every month as well as meet the 800k/400k requirements including for 2/3 months before the renewal.  Presumably the extension would go through without a problem, but as far as I remember from last time the official reviews the documents and grants the extension or not.  There is no declaration of the method under which you are applying.  So, if you meet both conditions the official could grant the extension on the basis of the 800k deposits and then next year you are back in the same boat.

 

So, the answer to the question is we don't know.  Although we will hear about more cases as time goes by, there may never be a definitive answer.

Great explanation... the only thing I would add would be to use two separate bank accounts to make it very clear that you want to use the income method, so, have the old account with the 400k left in it and the new account with the 65k monthly transfers. That way when you apply for your extension, you present the monthly transfer bank book & bank letter. If they want to see that you kept the 400k the entire year, then you can show them the other bank book & bank letter. I think it would be better not to comingle the monies in the same account.

Edited May 1, 2019 by JohnnyBD

[tandor]

On 4/30/2019 at 9:48 AM, ubonjoe said:

I would keep the 800k baht in the bank for 3 months since that appears to be immigrations primary concern since some office are telling people to come back 3 months after the day they apply for the extension. That part of the rules is to insure you did not put it in the bank just long enough to qualify for the extension.

As far as the 400k baht and transferring at least 65k baht to meet that requirement I suggest your local immigration about it.

...next thing you know we will be required to pay the 400,000 into a Government Account as a Bond, with the remaining 400,000 or 65,000 per month in own account.

[weelegs]

As I've posted elsewhere on this site, my wife, who is a former Thai govt. official at a high level and knows how to talk 'bureaucratese' to these people, has been told more than once in no uncertain terms that it's better to stick with the 8OOK method for retirement extensions for now, because the income method is being interpreted differently at diferent offices and at different points in time. For now, I'm maintaining both, and when I go for extension will present my documented foreign monthly income first, will be happy if it works, and will present my 'seasoned' 800K if the income method isn't accepted. When and if the dust settles, I'll rely on the income method only. Like others, I don't like having to essentially give away at least 400K. You would need it on deposit for as long as you live in Thailand and I doubt your wife would get it back if you died. 

[blazes]

I have never read a more convincing reason for leaving LoS (with middle finger raised) than the contents of this thread!!

[JimGant]

51 minutes ago, weelegs said:

I don't like having to essentially give away at least 400K. You would need it on deposit for as long as you live in Thailand and I doubt your wife would get it back if you died.

What's the reason for your doubt? The 400k is in your bank account, which will be part of your estate when you croak. Assuming you have a Will written covering your Thai assets, this 400k will go where directed. And, actually, getting this money to your wife when you die might just be easier by having it in Thailand, since, using the US example, if this money were in a US financial account, and your Thai wife doesn't have a Social Security/ITIN  number, then having her as a joint owner, or as a Pay On Death beneficiary, is not possible (according to Google). Thus, the easy avenue of avoiding probate, and having her inherit the money directly, is not available. Then you're left with having a US Will, executor, probate, and whatever final hassle there is to shipping the money to your wife. Ughh.

 

And, using the above example, I've recently contemplated bringing a lot more of my investments (most no risk, capital preservation type) over to Thailand. Thus, I won't sacrifice a lot of earnings, and then the part of my estate allocated to my Thai relatives will be in-country. As it is now, all my US assets are financial, and thus covered by designated beneficiaries and/or POD beneficiaries. Money goes to my niece and nephew, with no Will needed (nor do I have one any longer). I have a handshake that X amount will be sent to relatives in Thailand. But, that is certainly not ironclad, even if I thoroughly trust my niece and nephew. So, looking at shipping some more bucks this way. (And, no, I don't lose sleep over any potential Thai financial meltdown.)

[cmarshall]

 

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

 

Great explanation... the only thing I would add would be to use two separate bank accounts to make it very clear that you want to use the income method, so, have the old account with the 400k left in it and the new account with the 65k monthly transfers. That way when you apply for your extension, you present the monthly transfer bank book & bank letter. If they want to see that you kept the 400k the entire year, then you can show them the other bank book & bank letter. I think it would be better not to comingle the monies in the same account.

I suppose that might work, but it could be that the official looking at your two schemes says, "Fine.  You get an extension on the 800k.  See you next year."  

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

I suppose that might work, but it could be that the official looking at your two schemes says, "Fine.  You get an extension on the 800k.  See you next year."  

Except, they wouldn't give an extension based on the 800k method because the old account would only have 400k left. You would use the income method with the new account showing 12 monthly transfers. See my quote below...

 

Quote

That way when you apply for your extension, you present the monthly transfer bank book & bank letter. If they want to see that you kept the 400k the entire year, then you can show them the other bank book & bank letter

Just suggesting a way to keep things separate to make it more simple. It may work just as well using the same account. I plan to continue using the 800k/400k method until such time I'm ready to leave, then I will draw & use the 400k and then draw out the final 400k before I leave. I never planned to live here forever anyway.

Edited May 1, 2019 by JohnnyBD

[JohnnyBD]

2 hours ago, weelegs said:

Like others, I don't like having to essentially give away at least 400K. You would need it on deposit for as long as you live in Thailand and I doubt your wife would get it back if you died. 

Easy enough to solve. My wife has my KBank app loaded on her phone and she can xfer the remaining balance of 800k or 400k to her KBank or SCB account before my body is cold if something should happen to me.

[Delight]

 In the simple theoretical reality you lock up the whole 800K .

Lets say your visa application date is 01 Aug 2019. Your 800K matches the Immigration requirements.

So on the same day you commence the 65K per month

01 Aug 2020 the 800K has served its purpose and is redundent for visa extension purpose.

Your living on the 65K per month. You do not require further monies

In theory the 800K has no role.