What happens to a foreigners assets in Thailand apon death

[JimGant]

On 5/4/2019 at 8:35 AM, KittenKong said:

Sometimes lawyers are just slow and lazy and need poking with a sharp stick.

...and sometimes when a brother and two half-sister executors, who haven't been contacted in decades, get together with the lawyer -- somehow the subject of disinheritance can arise..... can the lawyer really stick charges that the Will grantor was incompetent when he last wrote his Will?

 

Anyway, probably a stretch. Nevertheless, I have the feeling lawyer jokes ("how many lawyers does it take........") aren't restricted to the America side of the Atlantic Ocean.

[JimGant]

On 5/4/2019 at 1:38 PM, Just Weird said:

If there had been other beneficiaries they could have taken legal action against you if they wanted to.

Yeah, but for the majority here, our Thai assets are left to our wife or partner. No one to complain about the settlement -- except the lawyer mafia out of a 50,000 baht probate fee. Complete "absence of malice," in legalese. And as our bank manager says, with a wink and a nod, just come in and transfer the funds (or online) once the funeral is over with (small moo ba'an, in our example). And had there been other 'potential' beneficiaries? A Thai Will, naming only your wife/partner as sole beneficiary should be ironclad. But, if you suspect some bloodline a**hole might complain -- name him in the Will as only getting one satang.

 

Quote

I have my retirement funds with Bangkok Bank, but am unsure of whether to make a will or just give my partner my account details so she can secretly transfer the lot into her account after my death.

Give her the details. If a savings account, make her a signatory to it. Just to cover the legality of all of this, sit down now and write a simple Will in longhand, leaving all, including specifically named bank accounts,  to your partner. No need for witness signatures, but getting a couple, if not too much trouble, would be added insurance -- as would a cell phone movie of the signing. Can't imagine anyone crying foul on this -- even lawyers, as a Google will show that probate is NOT a requirement in Thailand (but the lawyers have the banks running scared on this issue).

[topt]

On 5/4/2019 at 10:16 AM, Kerryd said:

From personal experience.

My father died in Thailand back in 2010. He, fortunately, had a Will. 2 in fact. One for his assets in Thailand and another for his assets in Canada.

 

I was told I had to wait 45 days after his death before the Will could be probated (Thai law, so that anyone, relatives/creditors if any, have time to make claims on the estate).

The law firm that made the Will did the probate. I had to appear in court (as the Executor and sole heir) and answer a few perfunctionary questions. A short time later I was given the official probate letter which allowed me to close out his accounts and dispose of his remaining assets.

 

 

8 hours ago, JimGant said:

 -- even lawyers, as a Google will show that probate is NOT a requirement in Thailand (but the lawyers have the banks running scared on this issue).

JimGant you gave a like to Kerryd's post yet you then seem to contradict him regarding probate? (apologies if this is out of context?)

 

A poster who works for a law firm in Pattaya has regularly posted that probate is always necessary and that seems backed up by Kerryd's post. Please can you explain why you think it is not (in capitals.....) a requirement?

[mercman24]

i told the , person i am leaving my money to, to burn me as cheaply as possible. and use my ATM to get 20,000 out every day until its all gone, 

[impulse]

21 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

i told the , person i am leaving my money to, to burn me as cheaply as possible. and use my ATM to get 20,000 out every day until its all gone, 

 

That works until someone from "back home" claims their inheritance has been stolen.   When investigators find the "culprit", I hope he/she has evidence that you meant to leave them the money. 

 

Bottom line, it's complicated and shortcuts can have unintended consequences.

 

[JimGant]

13 hours ago, topt said:

A poster who works for a law firm in Pattaya has regularly posted that probate is always necessary and that seems backed up by Kerryd's post.

Yeah, that guy works for a law firm -- I wonder why he'd promote that probate is always required -- could it be the 50000 baht fee sometimes charged? The lawyer mafia is even putting the word out that Amphur Wills now need to be probated. And, this may be so -- if the bank manager is sufficiently scared about potential legal action by that mafia. But Amphur Wills came about to mainly give the poor rice farmer an orderly avenue of estate administration -- with the serendipity of avoiding lawyer fees, both in the Will preparation and the subsequent estate settlement. Lawyers don't like it, of course.

 

Kerryd went the probate route, possibly because the bank manager insisted. This seems to happen more and more these days, although some bank managers in the small towns, like mine, say nonsense to the probate requirement.

 

Here's some reading for you:

Quote

... settlement of assets in Thailand through a Thai Last Will and Testament is more convenient and practical. For one, Thai law does not require probate of Last Will and Testaments before it can be enforced. Second, inheritance tax is not levied in Thailand.

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/lastwill-testament.php

And, while Thai Civil and Commercial Code doesn't specifically mention probate, its other wording about the administration of Wills mirrors the above quote, namely a properly written Will, with the testator appointing his executor/administrator, need never go to court -- unless someone cries foul.

 

Quote

Section 1711. Administrators of Estate

 

The administrators of an estate shall include persons appointed by will or by order of the Court.

Quote

Section 1719. Acts in Compliance with Expressed or Implied Order of Will

 

The administrator of an estate has the right and duty to do all such acts as may be necessary for complying with the expressed or implied order in the will and for the general administration or distribution of the estate.

Nothing about a court needed to bless the Will's named executor/adminstrator; in fact, the Will's administrator has carte blanche to carry out the instructions of the Will -- again, with no court involvement.

 

So, yeah, the lawyer mafia will tell anyone and everyone who will listen that probate is a legal requirement. However, some law firms, like my first quote, say BS. But, sadly, being honest cuts into probate fees. So, be prepared for probate, should your bank manager or land Office manager have been briefed, and intimidated, by the lawyer mafia.

 

Oh, Kerryd, how much did you pay for your probate?

Edited May 8, 2019 by JimGant

[jonwilly]

Start Visa B4,000 all in, including both lawyers registering will at local Ampher a year or so ago.

 

john

[JimGant]

On 5/4/2019 at 8:00 AM, jonwilly said:

I have a will created by a reputable Thai Lawyer. The will names my assets, my moderator and who will inherit and the will is lodged and registered at the local Apher.

 

john

And has that reputable Thai lawyer advised you that, upon death, your Will needs to go through probate.....? Or does your Will, being "lodged and registered" at the Amphur, bypass the probate process?

[jonwilly]

In my last post I named where you may go and personally question the qualifications of my Lawyer and you may also go to the Amphur, behind 3 kings monument and address your concerns to the Thai official in charge of the section that deals and stores Wills, having read them.

Please be so kind to inform all of your legal qualifications and where obtained.

You may also state if you are legally qualified to bump your gums on Thai Legal matters, I am not, I can only advice folk to use a Thai Lawyer.

 

john

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by jonwilly
Idiocy.

[Delight]

13 hours ago, JimGant said:

And has that reputable Thai lawyer advised you that, upon death, your Will needs to go through probate.....? Or does your Will, being "lodged and registered" at the Amphur, bypass the probate process?

Doubt it.

If that were the case the probate system would disappear.

A safeguard when drawing up a will is to have multiple originals.

My Thai will and my UK both have 4 originals .

You can have as many originals as you like.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Delight

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, jonwilly said:

In my last post I named where you may go and personally question the qualifications of my Lawyer and you may also go to the Amphur, behind 3 kings monument and address your concerns to the Thai official in charge of the section that deals and stores Wills, having read them.

Please be so kind to inform all of your legal qualifications and where obtained.

You may also state if you are legally qualified to bump your gums on Thai Legal matters, I am not, I can only advice folk to use a Thai Lawyer.

 

john

 

You don't need to be a lawyer to do research. I provided a source, with back up Civil Code language, that states probate is not an absolute legal requirement in Thailand. Research can also find that probate is, indeed, required in Thailand:

Quote

Pursuant to Thai law, after the deceased passed away, it is necessary for relatives or heirs of the deceased to contact a qualified probate attorney in Thailand immediately to file a probate case, either the deceased had his/her last will or not, as there is a time prescription for a probate case.

https://www.thailandprobatelawyer.com/probate/

This now seems to be the prevalent finding when doing a search on Thai probate. And also seems to be the position of more and more bank managers.

 

But, for absolute non-clarity, how about the following:

Quote

Is Probate a necessity in Thailand?

Thai courts will seek to find the most equitable balance of interests between what it deems the deceased would have wanted and what is necessary for the beneficiaries in Thailand. Some people do not like the idea of a Thai court deciding how their estate should be allocated. In a situation where one wishes to choose how their Thai estate will be allocated a Thai will can be of tremendous value. (emphasis added)

http://www.integrity-legal.com/other-services/thailand-will.html

Yes, but can a Thai Will replace the need for probate, as the Thai CCC indicates? Clear as mud.

 

All this is just a look at the probate system, with a finding that Thai law firms don't agree on exactly what the law is. Yes, the CCC could be clearer -- possibly it is in the original Thai language. But nowhere can you find the requirement for probate, if a properly prepared Thai Will, with a properly designated administrator, exists.

 

But, all the above is not legal advice --it's just a finding that suggests Thai law firms are fee hunting. I came to this conclusion several years ago, when someone on this forum reported that the lawyer preparing his Will included the wording "the named administrator need be approved by the Court." No way! The testator's named administrator need not be approved by the court, unless officially challenged. But, by writing this into the Will, this assured that the Will needed to go to court, if for no other reason than to bless the named administrator -- and collect fees.

 

But, as I've pointed out previously, it doesn't matter what the findings seem to suggest. What matters is the practicality of your Will's administration: Will your bank manager accept a Will from your wife, as sole beneficiary and administrator/executor? And when you ask this question, be sure to ask (if applicable) whether or not such acceptance applies to joint accounts (the law clearly states that joint property need not go through probate; but some reports indicate that some bank managers aren't familiar with the law, and thus insist on probate). Anyway, do your research ahead of time to save your executor from any surprises -- and have a lawyer on deck for your executor in case probate becomes necessary (e.g., new bank manager).

 

jonwilly -- you say your Will is "lodged" at the Amphur. Has your lawyer told you what happens upon your death? Does your executor retrieve the Will from the Amphur and head directly to the bank to close out your account? Or has he told you anything, i.e., will probate be a surprise?

[jonwilly]

I received a receipt for my will, this is held by my Administrator. He takes it with my Death Cert to Amphur and gets the will.

 

john

This was some years back after I took advice from my bank on what would become of my assets. 

[JimGant]

4 minutes ago, jonwilly said:

I received a receipt for my will, this is held by my Administrator. He takes it with my Death Cert to Amphur and gets the will

Ok, then where does he go? To the bank to clear out your account -- or to your lawyer to begin probate proceedings? Important information I would think you, and your administrator, would like to know........(?).

[Tomahawk21]

On 5/4/2019 at 10:12 AM, Griffo63 said:

They will need to be quick though because once the bank know of your demise they'll freeze the account 

and then the bank keeps the money ?

[Beggar]

Do I really need an additional Thai will if my German will is completely handwritten by me? The Thai requirements seem to be the same as in Germany:

 

chapter II of the Civil and Commercial Code sections 1655 to 1672.

 

A person under Thai law may also make a holographic testament, i.e. a testament written wholly by the testator himself, including the date of writing and signature of the testator (section 1657 Civil and Commercial Code).

[Mismogge]

I also have seen good advice right in that topic and I will allow myself to repeat it really. You really need to simply get access to any of your assets, cash, deposits, banking cards and banking accounts to the person to which you get the will here, nothing less for sure.

[hackjam]

How would it work, if you were to make all your Thai bank accounts joint, with your wife?

Would that save potential legal grief?

[couchpotato]

On 5/20/2020 at 9:03 AM, hackjam said:

How would it work, if you were to make all your Thai bank accounts joint, with your wife?

Would that save potential legal grief?

Yes, but make sure it is 'either/or' signatures.

[hackjam]

Don't understand what you mean 'either/or' signatures.

Edited May 22, 2020 by hackjam

[couchpotato]

7 minutes ago, hackjam said:

Don't understand what you mean 'either/or' signatures.

Either of you can sign alone. So when you leave this mortal coil, she can operate the account alone. Most banks will make a joint account as needing both signatures to operate it, which means she must go through the Court process to get the documents for the Bank to release the money (this can take many months).

So ask the bank specifically to do this, and then it's recorded on the Computor file documents.

[SantiSuk]

So the title of this thread is "What happens to a foreigner's assets in Thailand upon death"?

 

Lots of advice to get a Thai will written, but no advice about what happens when the foreigner has died already with assets in Thailand and no Thai will.

 

How are assets treated then? In the case of my deceased expat (UK) friend a Thai bank account plus car and motorcycle. There is a UK will with a UK executor. What can he do to recover the assets to distribute to beneficiaries (including the Thai widow who he will take care of appropriately if he can)? Do the Thai rules on intestacy and the procedures for processing an intestate will in Thailand have any part to play here - whatever those procedures are? [I can read the intestacy rules but can't find English language guidance on the process of collection and distribution.]

 

Any experience to offer? Surely it can't be a rare occurence? Any help that might avoid the default answer "go and hire a Thai lawyer" would be welcome - unless some have tried all avenues and come to that conclusion. Thai lawyers would probably absorb at least one-third of the assets' value.

 

No tips on dodgy ways of grabbing the assets by the Thai widow please - we (the deceased's executor and I as the friendly local expat adviser to the widow) want to do this properly.

[NancyL]

On 1/10/2021 at 9:12 PM, SantiSuk said:

So the title of this thread is "What happens to a foreigner's assets in Thailand upon death"?

 

Lots of advice to get a Thai will written, but no advice about what happens when the foreigner has died already with assets in Thailand and no Thai will.

 

How are assets treated then? In the case of my deceased expat (UK) friend a Thai bank account plus car and motorcycle. There is a UK will with a UK executor. What can he do to recover the assets to distribute to beneficiaries (including the Thai widow who he will take care of appropriately if he can)? Do the Thai rules on intestacy and the procedures for processing an intestate will in Thailand have any part to play here - whatever those procedures are? [I can read the intestacy rules but can't find English language guidance on the process of collection and distribution.]

 

Any experience to offer? Surely it can't be a rare occurence? Any help that might avoid the default answer "go and hire a Thai lawyer" would be welcome - unless some have tried all avenues and come to that conclusion. Thai lawyers would probably absorb at least one-third of the assets' value.

 

No tips on dodgy ways of grabbing the assets by the Thai widow please - we (the deceased's executor and I as the friendly local expat adviser to the widow) want to do this properly.

 

You're right, this isn't a rare occurrence. A foreign Will is valid in Thailand, but you're going to have to hire a Thai lawyer to have the Will probated and declared valid in a Thai court.  Maybe sympathetic bank managers would have accepted the UK Final Will without probate if they knew the couple well and the account was of low value, but there is no way to sell the car and motorcycle without a Thai judge declaring it valid.  

 

I've been involved in multiple cases.

 

[SantiSuk]

2 hours ago, NancyL said:

 

You're right, this isn't a rare occurrence. A foreign Will is valid in Thailand, but you're going to have to hire a Thai lawyer to have the Will probated and declared valid in a Thai court.  Maybe sympathetic bank managers would have accepted the UK Final Will without probate if they knew the couple well and the account was of low value, but there is no way to sell the car and motorcycle without a Thai judge declaring it valid.  

 

I've been involved in multiple cases.

 

Many thanks. Good to have confirmation of a view I was reaching based on recent review of (marketing materials, masquerading as?) guidance/information notes by Thai and UK lawyers.

[Heng]

Some first hand experience, if you don't have an honest executor of estate, your relatives back home might miss out.   It's almost a certainty that they won't be able to navigate the Thai legal system, not to mention that flying over to 'handle your affairs' often won't be able to fit into a 2-3 week trip, so that puts the local executor at a huge advantage.   Since the executor can often liquidate all real estate holdings, it's not unusual for them to be able to pocket the proceeds (in such a legal way that such proceeds are 'spent' in managing the estate) or simply sell the property in ways that aren't in the interest of the estate but to the executors own family interests.    That's with a will.   The good news is that the departed probably passed with the peace of mind that his affairs were in good order.

 

I haven't seen this done, but maybe an alternative would be to appoint multiple executors who don't have aligned interests.   

 

[SantiSuk]

Thanks for the warning Heng. Luckily I'm here residing in Thailand and I'll be involved in the appointment of a Thai lawyer to present in Thai Probate Court on behalf of the British will executor There's no Thai will in this case and I think the British executor, who can't travel anyway due to Covid bans on Brits, remains as executor for the Thai assets (but not 100% sure 'til we get going).

 

I'll be marking the local lawyer's every move (looking after the interests of all the beneficiaries in ensuring the will is properly executed) and I'd sue the b@$t@rd - with my own money if necessary - if she/he pulled stunts (hate cheats)! No 'immovable property' is involved - one of the benefits of Thailand's restrictions on land ownership I guess and difficult to see how the lawyer could physically steal the car/motorbike.

 

Hope that last para won't look like misguided bravado in retrospect when we are all done!

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by SantiSuk