Thais' obsession with documents, copies, signatures

[CLW]

As the title says it, I don't get this obsession with endless pages of documents, tons of copies and endless signatures if you want to do anything official here.

 

Had many occasions before related to that just recent story to tell:

 

Talking with one professor about a research proposal that I want to do with him at our university's department.

Short duration, small budget (even for Thai standards).

He said if we want to proceed we have to write a proposal with at least 30 pages!???

That's a dissertation!

Asking more details, he came out that the essence might be 4 or 5 pages the rest would be just bla bla to fill up the pages.

His quote: The more pages, the better because that looks important!

And then this document must be signed several time from lowest to highest level of administration and of course necessarily in this order. Not to mention this whole process will take ages....

 

In my opinion it has also to do with that in administration no one has the balls to decide something alone. Even small things must be considered by any kind of supervisory authority. Jeez.

That why nothing goes forward in this country! They are slaves of their own rules...

 

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[new2here]

My own opinion only is that for many, especially those of perhaps earlier generations, “paper” can add a perceived element of legitimacy.

So, the more “paperwork” attached to something, perhaps the more “legit” it must be.

Again, IMHO, paperwork alone doesn’t always anything in terms of credibility as I see it... but I do think that for some, it really does..


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[Kwasaki]

Thailand like paperwork down to smallest detail don't miss anything out, get use to it.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Kwasaki

[Hank Gunn]

1 hour ago, CLW said:

His quote: The more pages, the better because that looks important!

Has very little to do with no one having "the balls to decide something alone", since that could be achieved with a lot fewer pages while retaining the large sign-off list.

 

Remember, in Asia in general, appearances are very important, and in Thailand they are way above the curve in that respect. Having lots of superfluous nonsense, or "bla bla" as you put it, makes the proposed project "look" important. Therefore, it brings greater prestige to anyone attached to it (including those many officials and bureaucrats who sign off on it).

[marcusarelus]

Thailand is a little country.  Try comparing it to India.

[AtoZ]

They ask for 24 photos when applying for edu visa.... TWENTY FOUR

[Emdog]

Not just officialdom. Wife worked in purchasing for a Thai firm. Every purchase had to be signed off by supervisor in another building, which meant she had to go down 3 flights, cross a courtyard, then up 3, get signature, stamp, etc.

 I asked "have they heard of the internet? could do electronic stamp. Are they paying you do handle purchases or do a stair step fitness program?".

  She brought that up to her supervisor. Super said "We need to get a younger woman to do your job then". And gave her couple weeks notice.

  Fortunately, different dept knew wife was good so snapped her up.

 My take is all the signatures reflect couple of things: employers don't trust employees; and all those sign offs give a wide range of people to choose to blame if something is screwed up, cementing power of those further up the food chain.

[jesimps]

Same in any third world country, bureaucracy runs rampant.

[Ulic]

Actually common around the world. Why say in 10 words what you can say in 100. 

[ttl]

Maybe immigration should be interested in a scanner to save duplicate personal copies to be physically sent to the master office from Mukdahan to Korat  and all other offices round the country,  Then we only need to submit one copy of every required document which is filed by scanner to ultimate destination where it is instantly available

Would reduce work load considerably for every one????

 

[Old Croc]

Thailand has close to a nil unemployment rate.

One reason is the low minimum wage enabling the hiring of many more people than is needed for a given job (the first time I went into HomePro I was astounded to count over a dozen staff following me around).

While other countries are looking for short cuts and efficiencies to cut large wages costs, Thailand trends in the opposite direction. The entrenched culture of corruption, nepotism and face, result in the employment of far more staff than is required to manage relatively simple tasks. Excessive paperwork is one way to justify empire building.

Despite having embraced the digital era, the people here just can't let go of the traditional collection and storage of paper.

[PerkinsCuthbert]

Always a bad idea to micturate upwind in Thailand.

[rwill]

I like when you make a purchase using your debit card and enter your pin code.  They get the printout and make you sign it right above were it states 'No Signature Required'.  When I tell them what it says they just give me that blank stare.

[Captain 776]

Just be happy that Immigration stopped the madness of all the required copies for 90 day.......just a TM-47 and you are out the door in less than 10 minutes........unless you do online or other method

[Thingamabob]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:43 PM, Kwasaki said:

Thailand like paperwork down to smallest detail don't miss anything out, get use to it.

Like most other countries.

[CLW]

They ask for 24 photos when applying for edu visa.... TWENTY FOUR

Haha. Gotta see that form that was luckily cancelled a few days ago.
Makes you feel like living in North Korea or under Gestapo [emoji53]


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[CLW]

Since my first encounters with Thai bureaucracy it reminds of one the the tasks of the cartoon movie "The 12 tasks of Asterix". Unfortunately, most Thais don't know it. Here's the plot:

 

"the pair attempt the eighth task of getting a permit document from a multi-storey bureaucratic building. After finding it impossible because of the clinically unhelpful people who direct them elsewhere, Asterix beats them at their own game by asking for an imaginary permit. The staff fall victims to their own behaviour, and cause the Prefect to unwittingly hand over what the Gauls came for."

 

 

 

 

[Classic Ray]

After my 36 signatures and 30  photocopies as well as a 3 month wait, I got a Bangkok Bank credit card, but I had to put 100000 baht in first to be able to use it, and have to top it back up each month.

 

This contrasts with my bank, First Direct, in the UK where I signed once on a form many years ago and got my card in 7 days. 

 

First Direct has no branches and I use internet and occasionally phone to deal with everything.

 

My first experience with Kasikorn Cyber Banking online finished with them telling me to print and sign a form and take it to my local Kasikorn branch! Useless.

 

Here every system depends on lack of trust and manual intervention, will take generations to change. The pressure will come from  the banks to save cost, but will still take forever.

[CLW]

Thailand has close to a nil unemployment rate.
One reason is the low minimum wage enabling the hiring of many more people than is needed for a given job (the first time I went into HomePro I was astounded to count over a dozen staff following me around).
While other countries are looking for short cuts and efficiencies to cut large wages costs, Thailand trends in the opposite direction. The entrenched culture of corruption, nepotism and face, result in the employment of far more staff than is required to manage relatively simple tasks. Excessive paperwork is one way to justify empire building.
Despite having embraced the digital era, the people here just can't let go of the traditional collection and storage of paper.

Some 7-11 or Amazon store put so many staff inside they are obstructing themselves while working because not enough space behind the counter.

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[CLW]

After my 36 signatures and 30  photocopies as well as a 3 month wait, I got a Bangkok Bank credit card, but I had to put 100000 baht in first to be able to use it, and have to top it back up each month.
 
This contrasts with my bank, First Direct, in the UK where I signed once on a form many years ago and got my card in 7 days. 
 
First Direct has no branches and I use internet and occasionally phone to deal with everything.
 
My first experience with Kasikorn Cyber Banking online finished with them telling me to print and sign a form and take it to my local Kasikorn branch! Useless.
 
Here every system depends on lack of trust and manual intervention, will take generations to change. The pressure will come from  the banks to save cost, but will still take forever.

New hope with online banking from TMRW by UOB. But I heard it's only for Thai nationals.

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[CLW]

Maybe immigration should be interested in a scanner to save duplicate personal copies to be physically sent to the master office from Mukdahan to Korat  and all other offices round the country,  Then we only need to submit one copy of every required document which is filed by scanner to ultimate destination where it is instantly available
Would reduce work load considerably for every one????
 

Wouldn't surprise if someone in the purchasing department has contacts to office suppliers such as paper and xerox machines to keep the system alive.

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[CLW]

Has very little to do with no one having "the balls to decide something alone", since that could be achieved with a lot fewer pages while retaining the large sign-off list.
 
Remember, in Asia in general, appearances are very important, and in Thailand they are way above the curve in that respect. Having lots of superfluous nonsense, or "bla bla" as you put it, makes the proposed project "look" important. Therefore, it brings greater prestige to anyone attached to it (including those many officials and bureaucrats who sign off on it).

My girlfriend works in government office and sometimes she is formulating a letter for hours to find the right words in Thai language, as she tried to explain me why she needed that long for a few paragraphs letter. Must have something to do with Thai language and etiquette, not to intimidating someone.

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[Dek Somboon]

2 hours ago, ttl said:

Maybe immigration should be interested in a scanner to save duplicate personal copies to be physically sent to the master office from Mukdahan to Korat  and all other offices round the country,  Then we only need to submit one copy of every required document which is filed by scanner to ultimate destination where it is instantly available

Would reduce work load considerably for every one????

 

Oh no that would be way too digital and efficient...????????????‍♂️

[utalkin2me]

You're a foreigner so can't compare. Much of the paperwork is due to your own countries too. Bank forms for example, do you think Thais want to deal with it? 

 

I do not think the paperwork is significantly more than in other countries. 

[CLW]

You're a foreigner so can't compare. Much of the paperwork is due to your own countries too. Bank forms for example, do you think Thais want to deal with it? 
 
I do not think the paperwork is significantly more than in other countries. 

Well, I think it is. Just as another poster said about opening a bank account.
At home I wouldn't need to be physically present in the bank nor make copies or give signatures on them.
Everything can be made online even the authorisation they will arrange a video call and you have to show you and your passport, that's all. Some banks offer verification at post office, which is also convenient.

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[ianezy0]

I don’t know, there are some shady characters that arrive in Thailand ????. 

[utalkin2me]

2 minutes ago, CLW said:

Well, I think it is. Just as another poster said about opening a bank account.
At home I wouldn't need to be physically present in the bank nor make copies or give signatures on them.
Everything can be made online even the authorisation they will arrange a video call and you have to show you and your passport, that's all. Some banks offer verification at post office, which is also convenient.

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I would say up to half the docs for bank accounts can be disclosure agreements forced upon the banks by your home country. This largely depends on what country you are from of course. 

 

If you think the paperwork is excessive here, try looking at some bills and insurance papers for a single hospital visit in the US. 

 

You are also not taking into account foreign scrutiny. If I move from Saudi Arabia to the USA, do you think my banking forms are going to look like a US citizen's? That is the situation you are in here as a foreigner. 

[Dek Somboon]

I use paper mainly in the bathroom. Imagine a dream world where paper administration would be banned, and all those saved trees could absorb excess CO2. It wouldn’t be 45 degrees in summer, and we wouldn’t need all that air con that consumes loads of energy - and only generates more CO2 and more heat... Just dreaming.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Thingamabob said:

Like most other countries.

Yeah I give you that remembering the paperwork from the UK when it was Gov pension time.

Just getting my marriage extension ready for immigration 52 pieces of A4 paper.

[poka513]

Wonder where all that paperwork gets stored. There must be mountains of it somewhere.