Divorce and property earned/obtained overseas

[dia1]

Hi guys,

 

I am thinking of getting married, but I would like to protect my assets (and future assets) in my home country.

 

I am American, so I already know how to protect my assets in the US courts, and if I get married, I will bring my fiance to the US with me on a 90day fiance visa to get married over there. We will do a prenuptial agreement in the states, which would prevent her from taking half of everything I own by US law.

 

But I am concerned at the idea that she could somehow come back to Thailand and through Thai courts, somehow gain a ruling to a part of my foreign assets.

 

 

For example, let's just say I have a million dollars in assets currently. I take my girlfriend to the US with me and we get married and sign a prenuptial agreement. Sometime after, we acquire a home worth 2 million dollars (all in my name and using newly acquired assets that I earned after marriage). And then sometime afterward, we get a divorce. Under US Law, she would only be entitled to whatever I give her during a divorce if we sign a prenuptial agreement, since she essentially contributed no assets to the marriage.

 

But... could she come back to Thailand and somehow get a ruling for half of my newly acquired assets overseas and rule them as "common property" regardless of my prenup in the states? Hell, would the Thai courts even recognize the marriage here if we never register the marriage here? I am fully aware that any assets I acquire or earn in Thailand after marriage is common property and can be split 50/50, but can can the courts try to circumvent a foreign prenuptial and go after foreign assets held overseas?

 

I'm probably overthinking it, and hopefully it will never come to this, but I want to make sure I have my bases covered as I have substantial assets and my fiance has none. And please don't respond with "Don't get married, it's dumb... blah blah blah". I've already considered my options, and I would like to start a family on American soil. I know of all the risks of divorce... I just want to make sure I am not gutted in the event that it happens.

 

 

TLDR version;

 

1. Is a marriage to a Thai national done overseas recognized by Thai courts if it's never registered in Thailand.

 

2. Can Thai courts go after foreign assets

 

 

I'm not interested in assets purchased or earned in Thailand. I don't earn money in Thailand and the assets I have in Thailand aren't worth worrying about.

[happylarry]

There is no way the Thai courts have any jurisdiction over anything outside Thailand. And you can divorce over here but you would need to take your marriage certificate to register your marriage at an amphur first and then divorce.

HL

[Puchaiyank]

know of all the risks of divorce... 

 

No you do not...don't do.it!   ????

[DaRoadrunner]

Hardly romantic is it, but you are a smart man and have your head well screwed on.... Ask a lawyer in the USA.

Edited May 12, 2019 by DaRoadrunner

[AlexRich]

Thai courts have no jurisdiction in the US, so if you are planning to live in the US then you have to focus on US law ... for that I would advise a good US family lawyer over a Thai Visa armchair lawyer. 

 

Personally, I wouldn’t do it, but if I did I’d want to know how watertight pre nups are, how a court would treat the accumulation of wealth during the marriage, and what the financial implications are of adding children to the equation?

 

Good luck.

[bwpage3]

Do yourself a favor and get sound advice from a US lawyer; not Thai Visa.

 

[PeterA]

Why not get a village wedding in Thailand, and then your marriage in the US? You do not need a formal marriage cert in Thailand, unless you need that for her to get to the US. If you are formally married in the US, make damn sure you have a strong iron-clad pre-nup. Should be fine if ever the bad times come.

[Darkside Gray]

Thai Visa Forum is no way a divorce lawyers forum,

The correct advise can only be obtained by a lawyer in this matter, don't get caught out by hear say.

[KhaoYai]

As others have said, Thai courts have no jurisdiction over matters in the USA. But let's say they have.........Given that under Thai law, assets held prior to marriage do not count towards 'marital property' in the event of a divorce, its hardly likely that a Thai court would take on a request for action to recover a portion of such assets.

 

I don't know anything about US law but I would guess there is a mechanism whereby your wife could make a claim in the US courts but if your pre-nup is watertight, that shouldn't be a problem. However, it may not cover all eventualities:

 

20 hours ago, dia1 said:

Under US Law, she would only be entitled to whatever I give her during a divorce if we sign a prenuptial agreement, since she essentially contributed no assets to the marriage. 

Again, I know nothing about US law but I suspect the above statement is incorrect. Taking it from a UK law perspective - which I doubt is much different to the US, the prenup can only be in regard to assets held before the marriage took place.  Anything uplift in the value of assets jointly held after marriage would become part of the marital estate which your wife would be able to claim against in the event of a divorce. However, there are circumstances where a claim can be made against assets held prior to marriage in regard to any uplift in value.

 

It can (again under UK law), in some circumstances, be possible for a spouse to claim against the uplift in assets that form part of any pre-nup. For example, let's say you owned a house before you were married, the pre-nup should state its value at the time of marriage. If that house is the marital home and your wife makes a contribution to it, she would be entitled to make a claim against that estate for a percentage of any uplift in value since the date of marriage.

 

The term 'contribution' does not have to mean financial - if your wife has taken care of the property and of any offspring that may result from your marriage (or even taken care of you), whilst living at the property, she can rightfully claim against that too. Remember, taking care of the house, yourself and/or any children you may have, may prevent your wife from working and therefore making a financial contribution to the marriage - this is why such laws exist. However, its not as simple as 50/50 - several things are taken into consideration such as the length of the marriage when such claims are considered.

 

If you planned to live in Thailand I'd bet against her ever travelling to the US to make any form of claim in the event of a divorce but you say you plan to live in the US.  The longer she lives in the US, the more likely she is to be able to make a claim (and rightfully so) against assets as described above.

 

I can't see the US courts being much different to those in the UK in the fact that they have, for a long time, taken a wife's contribution in ways other than financial, into account.

 

I saw a case not so long ago where a wife successfully argued that she had a claim against the value of her husband's business.  Briefly, the business was the subject of a pre-nup but had increased in value massively since the couple's marriage. The wife claimed that whilst the huge increase was the result of her husband's input into the business, she made it possible for him to work because she looked after their children, made his meals and took care of the family home - thus providing him with the means to make money whilst she was denied the same privilege. The value of the business at the time of marriage was excluded from the claim by way of the pre-nup.

 

Pre-nups do not give the 'blanket' protection some think they do and you would be well advised to check the US position on 'uplifts in value' after marriage with your lawyer.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by KhaoYai

[AgMech Cowboy]

Having married in the USA, I don't recommend doing that unless you are both going to live there. Should you come to a point of divorce it becomes a big problem since she is not a US resident. Get married where you're going to live.

[JoeFromUSA]

You have money why not ask a lawyer instead of members on a forum called Thaivisa? 

 

What state you are in makes a difference. Also talk to an accountant.

[khunPer]

US follows US Law, and doing a prenuptial there covers your assets there. Always good to to do that, for both parts.

 

Thai Law covers Thailand, so whatever you write is a US prenuptial might not be accepted by a Thai court. You can make a prenuptial here also. If no prenuptial is made, the Thai Law says that what each party had before the marriage become separate property; whilst what's added during a marriage will become common property, and shall be shared 50/50 upon divorce.

 

When getting married its advisable to also make a Last Will, or rather two, one covering the assets in one's home country home country, i.e. US for you OP, and another in Thailand covering one's assets here.

 

You should consult a lawyer in US for the legal matters there, and another lawyer in Thailand for the same here.

????

 

[sead]

Atleast you are preparing yourself which i think is good..

[PingRoundTheWorld]

On 5/12/2019 at 10:42 PM, dia1 said:

For example, let's just say I have a million dollars in assets currently. I take my girlfriend to the US with me and we get married and sign a prenuptial agreement. Sometime after, we acquire a home worth 2 million dollars (all in my name and using newly acquired assets that I earned after marriage). And then sometime afterward, we get a divorce. Under US Law, she would only be entitled to whatever I give her during a divorce if we sign a prenuptial agreement, since she essentially contributed no assets to the marriage.

That's not how prenups work. You can't declare all future earnings are yours just because she agreed to it - a court will throw that out without blinking. The law in most states is that anything you had before the marriage is your property, and anything you earned during the marriage is common property and has to be divided fairly. A prenup is not fail-safe and courts often ignore it if they deem it "unfair". It can be used to formally declare what you had before the marriage so it can't be contested later, but it cannot override the law.

 

The short answer is: don't get married if you expect to gain significant assets in the near future, unless you're willing to lose half of it or more - which you will.
The long answer is: anything you make from the date of marriage onwards will be considered in a divorce proceeding. The only way to prevent that is to hide the assets (more on that later), but technically that would be illegal and a judge would penalize you heavily if found out. Another totally legal way is to simply gift money or assets to a close relative or friend who you trust to gift it back later, but if you do that right before the divorce a judge would likely see what you're doing - the correct way to do that would be to do it well in advance and via untraceable means. For example you could hoard a bunch of cash then give it to the other person by hand. Buying real estate while married to someone who isn't contributing to the purchase is just about the stupidest thing you could ever do as it's guaranteed they will get half of that property's value, and may even force you to sell it if you cannot afford to give cash equivalent.

 

As for good places to hide assets in general (not for divorce - that would be illegal! heh):

Cash is king. 'nuff said.

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency is great AS LONG AS THERE IS NO PAPER TRAIL LINKING BACK TO YOU. Buy it with cash or from overseas accounts. The good thing about crypto currencies is that they are classified as assets (like a stock) so you could hold millions in it and not have to declare anything until you sell it (at which point you may owe taxes on any profits - like a stock).

Overseas bank accounts are good as it's unlikely anyone would attempt to go after it because it would be excessively hard and costly to do so (court order in the US, transfer to the target country, and even then some countries have bank secrecy laws which would prevent them from disclosing information). Just keep in mind you should never keep more than $10,000 in overseas bank accounts as that would subject you to reporting them on your tax return - paper trail.

 

I know this is a bit over the top, but trust me that from experience that women in divorce proceedings become predators and will go after anything and everything they know about. No pre-nup is going to stop them. Looks at all the rich people paying $100 million to their wives for essentially doing jack shit - you think they didn't have pre-nups? Of course they did. Still didn't protect them.

[ThaiBunny]

3 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

I know this is a bit over the top, but trust me that from experience that women in divorce proceedings become predators and will go after anything and everything they know about. No pre-nup is going to stop them. Looks at all the rich people paying $100 million to their wives for essentially doing jack shit - you think they didn't have pre-nups? Of course they did. Still didn't protect them.

And in spades for same-sex marriage - the divorce lawyers are already looking forward to those

[PingRoundTheWorld]

7 hours ago, khunPer said:

You should consult a lawyer in US for the legal matters there, and another lawyer in Thailand for the same here.

Consulting a Thai lawyer not required unless there are assets in Thailand. It is extremely difficult and costly to get a judgement made in one country recognized in another country, and impossible if that judgement conflicts with the law in the other country. Simply put - if a Thai judgement conflicted with US law it could not be recognized or enforced there. And regardless - US states will only recognize a foreign divorce if at least one of the parties lives there. If both parties live in the US at the time of divorce then the US will not accept a divorce made in Thailand.

[ThaiBunny]

15 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

Consulting a Thai lawyer not required unless there are assets in Thailand. It is extremely difficult and costly to get a judgement made in one country recognized in another country, and impossible if that judgement conflicts with the law in the other country. Simply put - if a Thai judgement conflicted with US law it could not be recognized or enforced there. And regardless - US states will only recognize a foreign divorce if at least one of the parties lives there. If both parties live in the US at the time of divorce then the US will not accept a divorce made in Thailand.

That's also why property in Thailand requires a Thai Will. The Thai courts do not recognise the jurisdiction of foreign courts in civil matters (or at least that's what I read on the Internet so it must be true)

[Leef]

I had a pre-nup done in Thailand by a lawyer that was put into the marriage certificate folder when the official accepted the marriage documents in Bangkok. The pre-nup is in Thai and then translated to English. It essentially said that my wife who had no assets was not entitled to my UK assets and that any Thai assets that came during our marriage would be split with most going to me as I would be the one buying them. Whether it would completely hold up in court - i don't know - but the fact that it's all officially signed etc means I am more happy to have it than not. My wife thought it quite funny and it has never caused a problem between us. If we got ever got divorced it would not hold weight in the UK but then we don't live there so it is not a problem.

[Captain 776]

Just make it crystal clear in pre nut that she surrenders all her rights to anything in both countries..........if ya do end up getting divorced you have a better chance of getting pregnant than .....number 1 her ever getting a lawyer and number 2 ever having access to any of YOUR assets

[dia1]

On 5/13/2019 at 4:00 PM, PeterA said:

Why not get a village wedding in Thailand, and then your marriage in the US? You do not need a formal marriage cert in Thailand, unless you need that for her to get to the US. If you are formally married in the US, make damn sure you have a strong iron-clad pre-nup. Should be fine if ever the bad times come.

 

US Immigration law is very difficult. The only way I'd manage to get my fiance back in the US with me to live is if I brought her in on a 90-day fiance visa or we got married in Thailand first. Obviously, I want to avoid getting married in Thailand first at all costs as a prenuptial agreement must take place before marriage.

 

Honestly, marriage is just a word to me and not required in a relationship. You can have a mutual relationship and family with someone without the formalities. But I am in a long-term relationship and want to stay with her, so wanting to live in the US with her forces me down the marriage path.

 

 

On 5/13/2019 at 6:30 PM, KhaoYai said:

Taking it from a UK law perspective - which I doubt is much different to the US, the prenup can only be in regard to assets held before the marriage took place. 

 

 

Prenuptial agreements in the US can protect future earnings. In the US,  pre-nup can actually be quite strong, depending on the state that it is issued in. Both future earnings and future debts can be protected... If my wife decides to go wild, get a loan, and blow it all on bullshit, a prenup could protect me from her debt in the event of a divorce.

 

 

On 5/13/2019 at 6:57 PM, AgMech Cowboy said:

Having married in the USA, I don't recommend doing that unless you are both going to live there. Should you come to a point of divorce it becomes a big problem since she is not a US resident. Get married where you're going to live.

 

We are both going to live there. If we weren't both going to live there, I wouldn't even consider getting married. It would be pointless. ????

 

 

On 5/13/2019 at 7:15 PM, JoeFromUSA said:

You have money why not ask a lawyer instead of members on a forum called Thaivisa? 

 

What state you are in makes a difference. Also talk to an accountant.

 

I have consulted with a lawyer in the US. According to them, a prenup in the US only applies to US law. It doesn't have any bearing on rulings outside of the US...

 

Also, I figured that someone on ThaiVisa may have already divorced in the US with a prenup and could offer their input. Obviously that isn't the case.

 

My concern is that my "future wife" comes to Thailand and presents the Thai courts with evidence that I have assets in the US, claiming that half of it should be hers. The Thai government would not be able to seize my assets of course, but if I ever decide to come back to Thailand, I don't want to have a ruling of XXXX dollars hanging over my head and/or be running around as some sort of debt criminal.

 

On 5/14/2019 at 6:36 AM, PingRoundTheWorld said:

That's not how prenups work.

Yes, it is. Prenups can be used to protect future earnings. You can reference it here or the countless other write ups regarding pre-nups protecting earnings in the future: http://www.divorcelawyersnyc.org/blog/2018/12/10/can-a-prenuptial-agreement-protect-future-earnings/

 

I've also spoken to a marriage attorney who concurred. Anything I give my wife as a gift would be excluded in a pre-nup, and "future earnings" would not apply to money that she earned in order for the prenup to be "fair". The prenup must also be very specific. For example, I have three businesses fields that I work in. I can exclude future earnings that I gain in those three fields, but if, for example, I decided to open a random small business that has nothing to do with that... let's say a fishing businesses. Then that fishing business and its earnings would not be protected.

 

 

 

 

By the way, in my state, in order for a pre-nup to be invalidated or thrown out in court, the court must consider the pre-nup unfair or unconscionable. Meaning that I did not disclose my assets or future assets to my wife, lied, or forced her to sign. She can't just say "It's not fair I don't get money!"

 

Thanks for all the replies!

 

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by dia1

[Tomahawk21]

On 5/13/2019 at 12:26 AM, DaRoadrunner said:

Hardly romantic is it, but you are a smart man and have your head well screwed on.... Ask a lawyer in the USA.

if he were that smart he would not even be talking marriage.

[user305]

On 5/18/2019 at 6:28 AM, dia1 said:

By the way, in my state, in order for a pre-nup to be invalidated or thrown out in court, the court must consider the pre-nup unfair or unconscionable. Meaning that I did not disclose my assets or future assets to my wife, lied, or forced her to sign. She can't just say "It's not fair I don't get money!"

A finding of unfairness does not require signing under deceit or duress.  It can be as simple as a failure of comprehension or the lack of separate and equal council.  A prenup is primarily used to prevent your spouse from gaining an unfair advantage over you, mainly by defining the value and nature of your protected assets prior to marriage.  A prenup that favors your post marriage interests at 55-65% or so might pass muster if all other factors are kosher, but a prenup that attempts to protect all or nearly all of you post-marriage gains is primed for being invalidated.

Edited May 29, 2019 by user305

[andux]

Your concerns are irrational, there is no way your hypothetical future ex-wife will come to Thailand to try to claim assets that are in the US, especially on a marriage and divorce that will have taken place in the US. 

 

You are, however, missing a most immediate concern, which is that your hypothetical future ex-wife may consult with lawyers in the US right after divorce. Then, her American lawyers will present a case to claim a large part of your assets, plus alimony, etc. that they'll probably win due to:

1) The fact that she followed you to the US and left any possibilities for a career in her home country

2) The fact that she probably won't be working in the US (follows 1)

3) In the event that you have kids, the fact that she'll need to support them, and since she will be unable to do so because of 1 and 2 above, that responsibility will be yours (i.e. child support)

4) The fact that she'll need to maintain her quality of life, and since she will be unable to do so due to 1 and 2 (and maybe 3) above, it will be your responsibility to maintain it (i.e. alimony). Note that alimony doesn't exist in Thailand, but you'll have to pay this for sure if she goes to a decent lawyer in the US.

 

So I wouldn't be concerned about Thailand. She'll be pretty much American after a few years and you know how divorces with American women usually end up. My recommendation is that you simply assume that you'll lose a good chunk of your assets some way or another in the event of a divorce, and proceed accordingly. Either you are fine with the risks or you don't get married, it's as simple as that.

Edited June 2, 2019 by andux

[dia1]

On 6/3/2019 at 12:30 AM, andux said:

Your concerns are irrational, there is no way your hypothetical future ex-wife will come to Thailand to try to claim assets that are in the US, especially on a marriage and divorce that will have taken place in the US. 

 

You are, however, missing a most immediate concern, which is that your hypothetical future ex-wife may consult with lawyers in the US right after divorce. Then, her American lawyers will present a case to claim a large part of your assets, plus alimony, etc. that they'll probably win due to:

1) The fact that she followed you to the US and left any possibilities for a career in her home country

2) The fact that she probably won't be working in the US (follows 1)

3) In the event that you have kids, the fact that she'll need to support them, and since she will be unable to do so because of 1 and 2 above, that responsibility will be yours (i.e. child support)

4) The fact that she'll need to maintain her quality of life, and since she will be unable to do so due to 1 and 2 (and maybe 3) above, it will be your responsibility to maintain it (i.e. alimony). Note that alimony doesn't exist in Thailand, but you'll have to pay this for sure if she goes to a decent lawyer in the US.

 

So I wouldn't be concerned about Thailand. She'll be pretty much American after a few years and you know how divorces with American women usually end up. My recommendation is that you simply assume that you'll lose a good chunk of your assets some way or another in the event of a divorce, and proceed accordingly. Either you are fine with the risks or you don't get married, it's as simple as that.

 

In order for a pre-nup to be valid, both her and I will need separate attorneys during the prenup process and prior to marriage. So, it won't matter to me if some talks to an attorney in the US as she will already have spoken with one prior to the marriage, and like I mentioned earlier, prenups are pretty strong if they are done properly.

 

I am not concerned about child-support, nor am I concerned about her being left without $0 and homeless. Even if a prenup is valid, no judge is going to let someone walk away without a penny if they don't have a job and way to support themselves. In most cases, I would have to provide her at least support above the poverty line in the even that she has no income of her own. I could care less about that.... But that's not to mention that I wouldn't want a wife who doesn't work either. A surefire way to get a divorce is to bring a woman home from overseas and have her stay home and go crazy with nothing to do. Even if I can provide for her, I'd make sure she has a job just to maintain the relationship and keep her from going insane.

 

My one and only concern is that she would manage to walk away with $1m+ dollars, 50% shares of my companies, my home, etc. etc. That's the only thing I want to protect with a prenup. I am aware I'd be on the hook to support her if she stays in the US for a while in the event of a divorce and I'd never be a dead beat dad who doesn't pay child support. I feel like I've covered my bases in the US, but just wanted to make sure she couldn't swing some crazy ruling in Thailand that would put me in legal jeapardy if I ever returned here.

[grin]

Like it has been said in previous responses, no matter whether you have separate lawyers or not, in almost every state in the U.S. you are not allowed to take away from her what would be her share of the community property. Anything in the prenup that does that is very likely to be found invalid by a court at the time of a divorce. You can protect the assets that go into starting the new business but any profits or increase in equity is community property and the only way around splitting this with her is to not get married.

[dia1]

On 6/25/2019 at 12:56 PM, grin said:

Like it has been said in previous responses, no matter whether you have separate lawyers or not, in almost every state in the U.S. you are not allowed to take away from her what would be her share of the community property. Anything in the prenup that does that is very likely to be found invalid by a court at the time of a divorce. You can protect the assets that go into starting the new business but any profits or increase in equity is community property and the only way around splitting this with her is to not get married.

 

Where are you getting this data? No lawyer I have spoken too agrees with you and I have spoken to several.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/13/2019 at 4:21 AM, happylarry said:

There is no way the Thai courts have any jurisdiction over anything outside Thailand. And you can divorce over here but you would need to take your marriage certificate to register your marriage at an amphur first and then divorce.

HL

If the Thai wife wants a piece of it she can take it to the family court and till it is sorted he can't get a divorce in Thailand.

Simplest answer- don't get a divorce in Thailand, never marry again and never go back to Thailand.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/25/2019 at 5:56 PM, grin said:

You can protect the assets that go into starting the new business but any profits or increase in equity is community property and the only way around splitting this with her is to not get married.

Not so in NZ. After 2 years or something living together is legally the same as being married. Only way to be safe is to dump her before the time limit, or keep two separate households. Women got it sewn up in NZ.

[eezergood]

I was also "advised" that a property, solely owned by me in another country that my wife has never even visited, would be subject to divide in a divorce. Quite how they would enforce this is beyond me, as I would simply leave the country and never return. 

 

For this they wanted THB25k to make a legal judgement, i smelled a scam 

[Pravda]

Yea like other have say just do a pre nut and don't marry