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[webfact]

China defiant toward U.S. on trade, Kudlow urges strong enforcement steps

By Humeyra Pamuk and Ben Blanchard

 

U.S. President Donald Trump, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, U.S. President Donald Trump's national security adviser John Bolton and Chinese President Xi Jinping attend a working dinner after the G20 leaders summit in Buenos Aires, Argentina December 1, 2018. REUTERS/Kevin Lamarque

 

WASHINGTON/BEIJING (Reuters) - The United States and China appeared at a deadlock over trade negotiations on Sunday as Washington demanded promises of concrete changes to Chinese law and Beijing said it would not swallow any "bitter fruit" that harmed its interests.

 

The trade war between the world's top two economies escalated on Friday, with the United States hiking tariffs on $200 billion worth of Chinese goods after President Donald Trump said Beijing "broke the deal" by reneging on earlier commitments made during months of negotiations.

 

White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow told the "Fox News Sunday" program that China needs to agree to "very strong" enforcement provisions for an eventual deal and said the sticking point was Beijing's reluctance to put into law changes that had been agreed upon. Kudlow said the U.S. tariffs would remain in place while negotiations continue.

 

Beijing remained defiant.

 

"At no time will China forfeit the country's respect, and no one should expect China to swallow bitter fruit that harms its core interests," said a commentary, due for Monday publication, in the Chinese ruling Communist Party's People's Daily.

 

It said Beijing was open to talks but would not yield on important issues of principle.

 

On Sunday, Trump sought to portray the United States as being in an advantageous position.

 

"We are right where we want to be with China," Trump wrote on Twitter, saying U.S. purchasers of Chinese goods could either buy them from domestic manufacturers or from other nations.

 

Trump also repeated an erroneous statement that the United States would be taking in "Tens of Billions of Dollars in Tariffs from China."

 

The tariffs are not paid by the Chinese government or by firms located in China. They are paid by importers of Chinese goods, usually American companies or the U.S.-registered units of foreign companies. These often pass on the costs to customers, mostly manufacturers and consumers in the United States.

 

Kudlow, when asked who was paying, said "both sides will suffer on this," contradicting Trump, although he added that the U.S. economy should be able to cope.

 

"We're in terrific shape in order to correct 20 years plus of unfair trading practices with China," Kudlowsaid. "... This is a risk we should and can take without damaging our economy in any appreciable way."

 

G20 SUMMIT

Kudlow said there is a "strong possibility" that Trump will meet Chinese President Xi Jinping at a G20 summit in Japan in late June.

 

Until last week, there were expectations Trump and Xi would sign a trade deal at the summit. However, the trade talks suffered a major setback last week when China proposed extensive revisions to a draft agreement. Beijing wanted to delete prior commitments that Chinese laws would be changed to enact new policies on issues from intellectual property protection to forced technology transfers.

 

Vice Premier Liu He, China's top economic adviser, sought to defend the changes in talks with senior U.S. officials in Washington on Thursday and Friday, arguing that China could accomplish the policy changes through decrees issued by its State Council, or cabinet, sources familiar with the talks said.

 

U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer rejected that, telling Liu that the United States was insisting on restoration of the previous text.

"We would like to see these corrections in an agreement which is codified by law in China, not just a State Council announcement. We need to see something much clearer. And until we do we have to keep our tariffs on," Kudlow said.

 

China strongly opposes the latest U.S. tariff hike, and must respond to that, Liu told reporters on Saturday.

 

Kudlow said on Sunday he expected retaliatory tariffs to kick in but that it had not yet happened.

 

Trump has ordered Lighthizer to begin imposing tariffs on all remaining imports from China, a move that would affect about an additional $300 billion worth of goods.

 

Lighthizer said a final decision on that has not yet been made but it would come on top of the Friday tariff rate increase to 25% from 10% on $200 billion worth of Chinese imports.

 

U.S. farmers, a key constituency of Trump, have been among the hardest hit in the trade war, with soybean shipments to China dropping to a 16-year low in 2018.

 

(Reporting by Humeyra Pamuk and Ben Blanchard, additional reporting by Brenda Goh in Shanghai and Arshad Mohammed in Washington; Writing by Humeyra Pamuk; Editing by Lisa Shumaker, Rosalba O'Brien and Will Dunham)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-05-13

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[Tug]

Well get ready for a 25%hike on many products 

[Dumbastheycome]

It  would be interesting to know who wrote the original draft of the agreement Trump etc. are saying China  has amended/altered, retracted.

That plus some contemplation over the US demanding China change domestic  law?

Typical  confrontational tactics  by the US  strike me as the worst way to go when dealing with Asian negotiators.

 

[zydeco]

The US used to have stiff export and import controls to Communist countries. And it should reinstitute them. A complete export and import ban for China and Russia.

[mtls2005]

7 minutes ago, zydeco said:

A complete export and import ban for China and Russia.

 

Not sure that would be wise, there's shooting yourself in the foot, even more than once, in both feet, but another thing to point the gun at your head and pull?

 

The DOW would be at 5,000 should someone even mention such a thing via a tweet.

 

 

We had strict import/export control to Communist countries back when those country's economies were minuscule, mainly for political reasons.

 

 

[zydeco]

1 minute ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Not sure that would be wise, there's shooting yourself in the foot, even more than once, in both feet, but another thing to point the gun at your head and pull?

 

The DOW would be at 5,000 should someone even mention such a thing via a tweet.

 

 

We had strict import/export control to Communist countries back when those country's economies were minuscule, mainly for political reasons.

 

 

And you don't think political reasons are paramount now? Do you really believe that the US subordinate itself to China and Russia for the sake of the stock market? That type thinking has got us where we are today, weakened while feeding, outfitting, and industrializing our main enemy. And China is an enemy, not a "partner" in trade or anything else. 

 

Quote

We had strict import/export control to Communist countries back when those country's economies were minuscule, mainly for political reasons.

You mean back when the US had the highest standard of living in the world and economic expansion was ongoing and there existed national unity on questions of trade and foreign policly.

[mtls2005]

8 minutes ago, zydeco said:

You mean back when the US had the highest standard of living in the world and economic expansion was ongoing and there existed national unity on questions of trade and foreign policly.

 

Short of firing up the way-back machine, Sherman, you're not making much of a case for a complete export/import ban with Russia and China.

 

Clearly, you're upset, and I acknowledge your pain and your challenges in dealing with the modern world, but really, the world's moved on from the 1950's.

 

Ah, free-trade Republicans, where art thou?

 

 

[spidermike007]

Trump negotiating with China, is a bit like Justin Bieber in a science debate with Stephen Hawking or Alan Guth. Or Pauly Shore negotiating with Bill Richardson, the former ambassador to the UN, and governor of New Mexico. It would be like Shia LeBoeuf or Lindsay Lohan playing chess with Boris Spassky, or Bobby Fischer. The lowliest member of the Chinese delegation would outclass Trump, Bolton, Miller, Ross, Mnuchin, Kudlow, Lighthizer, or Navarro, by 30-50 IQ points. Not to mention skill, vision, and fortitude. As is typical of this president, he always picks from the bottom of the barrel, and due to both his temperament, and his willingness to throw those loyal to him under the bus, at the first sign of challenge, he is simply not able to attract real talent and intellect. That is perhaps one of his greatest failings as a leader. Add to that the fact that the man himself cannot negotiate his way out of a paper bag, and you have a disaster in the making.

 

At least Kudrow had the integrity to expose Trumps lies yesterday, about the tariffs being good for the American economy. They are an unmitigated disaster. They are a huge tax hike on the average American, and most American corporations. Lie number 10.001 failed, as have the rest of his low quality, low class, simpleton tactics. At this stage, only his most hard core devotees, are continuing to drink the kool aid. 

[mtls2005]

22 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

At least Kudrow had the integrity to expose Trumps lies yesterday

 

Yes, when pressed by Chris Wallace - but Larry did back-peddle slightly to appease his boss by saying "both sides" pay....the tariff two-step.

 

A bit like Mexico paying for the wall one imagines. I think trump knows he's lying, but maybe he's just not that smart?

 

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by mtls2005

[Proboscis]

Here is something that all the froth and hot air put out by Trump and even his opponent will not reveal to you.

 

China is what economists call a "large open economy." Large I think you get. Open in this context means that a huge percentage of its economy is traded - in other words, it relies for a huge percentage of its inputs on imports and needs to export a huge amount to pay for those imports.

 

The USA is a "large relatively closed economy." Closed here means that a much smaller percentage of the USA economy is traded. If you think about it, the country has a huge agricultural sector and, if shipping were to be cut off for a significant period of time, could be perfectly self-sufficient in food and agricultural products. Its industrial sector manufactures a large variety of products too. Yes, all those iPhones are put together in China but their design and software is all done in the USA.

 

If you must go into a trade war (and trade wars are never won and usually stupid), make sure you are the large relatively closed economy. It does not mean that your economy won't be hurt but you will have leverage over the large open economy.

[spidermike007]

6 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Yes, when pressed by Chris Wallace - but Larry did back-peddle slightly to appease his boss by saying "both sides" pay....the tariff two-step.

 

A bit like Mexico paying for the wall one imagines. I think trump knows he's lying, but maybe he's just not that smart?

 

 

Trump is just smart enough to know he is lying, and that his deceptions work with the most gullible amongst his devotees. However, he is not smart enough to know that the majority within the US, and 97% around the world consider him to be a gangster, a fraud, a total charlatan, and someone who cares not one iota for the average American, much less the average man and woman outside of the US.

[mtls2005]

29 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

Yes, all those iPhones are put together in China but their design and software is all done in the USA.

 

Hard to make a call with "design and software".

 

 

[Srikcir]

7 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Hard to make a call with "design and software".

 

 

It's also hard to manufacture an iPhone without seeing the design and software.

Trump has combined two separate and distinct issues into a single trade negotiation: IP transfer and trade balance. The foundation of Trump's trade negotiations is flawed.

 

[Dumbastheycome]

37 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

Here is something that all the froth and hot air put out by Trump and even his opponent will not reveal to you.

 

China is what economists call a "large open economy." Large I think you get. Open in this context means that a huge percentage of its economy is traded - in other words, it relies for a huge percentage of its inputs on imports and needs to export a huge amount to pay for those imports.

 

The USA is a "large relatively closed economy." Closed here means that a much smaller percentage of the USA economy is traded. If you think about it, the country has a huge agricultural sector and, if shipping were to be cut off for a significant period of time, could be perfectly self-sufficient in food and agricultural products. Its industrial sector manufactures a large variety of products too. Yes, all those iPhones are put together in China but their design and software is all done in the USA.

 

If you must go into a trade war (and trade wars are never won and usually stupid), make sure you are the large relatively closed economy. It does not mean that your economy won't be hurt but you will have leverage over the large open economy.

China  might feel pain but it seems  forgotten than the US is not China's exclusive export market. 75% approx of it's export go everywhere globally. Near  50% go into other Asian  countries alone.

 

 

[mtls2005]

51 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

It's also hard to manufacture an iPhone without seeing the design and software.

 

trump's retort..."Buyers of product can make it themselves in the USA (ideal)."

 

I'll be in my workshop building my mobile phone, and knitting my tube socks.

 

 

 

[Rimmer]

Off topic post removed

[arithai12]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

U.S. President Donald Trump, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, U.S. President Donald Trump's national security adviser John Bolton

Has Pompeo gained the power of invisibility? That should help him in future NK negotiations.

[arithai12]

5 hours ago, Proboscis said:

Yes, all those iPhones are put together in China but their design and software is all done in the USA

by a lot of foreigners, one may add.

Anyway, since you mention this specific topic: Apple has taken a giant hit in its China sales already by end of last year, and it will suffer even more this year. Apple is probably not especially happy considering that they regarded China as their main future market. Meanwhile Huawei is booming.

[Traubert]

6 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Short of firing up the way-back machine, Sherman, you're not making much of a case for a complete export/import ban with Russia and China.

 

Clearly, you're upset, and I acknowledge your pain and your challenges in dealing with the modern world, but really, the world's moved on from the 1950's.

 

Ah, free-trade Republicans, where art thou?

 

 

Yes but, yes but, yes but they're COMMUNISTS!!

 

And if you are 132 years old and a lifelong devotee of Joe McCarthy that's a bad thing right? Well, maybe not the Viets who are BFE's now since they booted the last of the Americans off the Saigon Embassy roof. Oh, and the North Koreans because Kim is a jolly nice chap if a little portly. And of course the Cubans who make nice cigars and lovely sugar.

 

But those Chicoms!! Watch those evil Commies devalue their currency by about 1.5% against the dollar this week and throw a spanner in the works.

[Sakeopete]

Liberal leaning people like to label Trump as stupid. Like politicians around the world he knows how to talk to people. He isn't stupid he is giving the people what they want to hear. His firebrand speech keeps his adversaries guessing and he gets constant media attention. 

His campaign in 2016 paid peanuts in advertising while Hillary paid hundreds of millions. Yet good or bad the name Donald Trump was repeated over and over again in the news for free.

No different to the strategy of celebrities. Female starlets will use the get out of a limo not wearing panties plot and males will get nailed with hookers or drugs. Bad publicity is good publicity when you are a celebrity. Trump is a celebrity and no matter how  much liberals berate him the proof is in the pudding. Presidencies are won and lost on economy or wartime. Unless the USA economy tanks before the election Trump will be hard to beat. Most voters care about their families prosperity not fluff liberal issues. 

[ballpoint]

9 hours ago, Boon Mee said:

China is wishful thinking about a Democrat in the White House in 2020. 

Very unrealistic... 

It'll be a very interesting election, with the Russians trolling for Trump and the Chinese for whoever the Democrats run.  I guess the US will find out who its Daddy is.  Putin or Xi.

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by ballpoint

[connda]

Just an observation, but the US seems to now honestly believe that it has immanent domain over the entire globe, all other countries are little more then US vassal-states, and those who refuse to 'bend a knee' are sanctioned if not marked to be overthrown.  Interesting.  ????

I guess Cersi Lannister and Mr. Maga do share common interests.  But at least the Lannisters pay their debts. 

[mtls2005]

Boom!

 

 

[IAMHERE]

I'd rather see Equal Trade with China, forget Fair Trade. Dollar for dollar trade, so there would be no trade imbalance.  The Chinese buy from us and we will buy from them, 

[bristolboy]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Apple tried making macbooks in the USA. The experiment was not a resounding success. Only people who have no idea about global supply lines and epicenters of expertise could possibly make such a crazy claim. There is no chance that most of those jobs and industries can return to the USA. Many low value added industries are already leaving China because wages there are getting too high! 

Chinese millennials are rejecting dull factory jobs — and transforming the economy

https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-china-millennials-jobs-20190512-story.html

Edited May 13, 2019 by Scott

[Srikcir]

3 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

Boom!

Another Boom:

China strikes back at United States with higher tariffs on American goods

May 13, 2019

Beijing said Monday that it will raise tariffs on roughly $60 billion worth of US goods on June 1.

The Dow on Monday fell by more than 500 points.

http://lite.cnn.io/en/article/h_3ce00b021e9343418441bffb65942c5f

Trump's planned meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping at the G20 economic summit in Japan next month should be interesting. Somehow I don't think Xi will be impressed by Trump's personality nor will Xi be sending any love letters to Trump.

[bristolboy]

11 hours ago, Proboscis said:

Here is something that all the froth and hot air put out by Trump and even his opponent will not reveal to you.

 

China is what economists call a "large open economy." Large I think you get. Open in this context means that a huge percentage of its economy is traded - in other words, it relies for a huge percentage of its inputs on imports and needs to export a huge amount to pay for those imports.

 

The USA is a "large relatively closed economy." Closed here means that a much smaller percentage of the USA economy is traded. If you think about it, the country has a huge agricultural sector and, if shipping were to be cut off for a significant period of time, could be perfectly self-sufficient in food and agricultural products. Its industrial sector manufactures a large variety of products too. Yes, all those iPhones are put together in China but their design and software is all done in the USA.

 

If you must go into a trade war (and trade wars are never won and usually stupid), make sure you are the large relatively closed economy. It does not mean that your economy won't be hurt but you will have leverage over the large open economy.

The US definitely does have the advantage in this kind of trade war. At least on a purely economic basis. But unless Xi gets deposed, it most likely will be Trump's political fortunes that suffer more. But whatever the case with that, one sure effect of Trump's tariffs will be to raise the value of the US dollar against the Yuan. That's because as the US buys less from China, in effect there is less demand for the Yuan. So to some extent, raising tariffs is self-defeating. Not entirely self-defeating, but definitely significant particularly in export markets where US business interests and Chinese business interests are competing.

[riclag]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Apple tried making macbooks in the USA. The experiment was not a resounding success. Only people who have no idea about global supply lines and epicenters of expertise could possibly make such a crazy claim. There is no chance that most of those jobs and industries can return to the USA. Many low value added industries are already leaving China because wages there are getting too high! 

Chinese millennials are rejecting dull factory jobs — and transforming the economy

https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-china-millennials-jobs-20190512-story.html

I said one was the USA(other countries-"global supply lines and epicenters of expertise" ) !The beauty part of of Mr. Trumps tariffs will bring on competition , create mfg jobs and spur new business ventures. It also doesn't happen overnight!

. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by riclag

[impulse]

Here's a graphic that tells quite a story...

 

Over 90% of US goods going to China are under tariff.  Less than 50% of Chinese goods coming to the USA are under tariff...

 

Fair?  I think not.  And that doesn't even begin to address theft of IP and the other agreements China has consistently broken since they entered WTO.

 

Source:  https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/10/business/china-us-tariffs-trade/index.html

 

 

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, impulse said:

Here's a graphic that tells quite a story...

 

Over 90% of US goods going to China are under tariff.  Less than 50% of Chinese goods coming to the USA are under tariff...

 

Fair?  I think not.  And that doesn't even begin to address theft of IP and the other agreements China has consistently broken since they entered WTO.

 

Source:  https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/10/business/china-us-tariffs-trade/index.html

 

 

Well, whatever unfairness China imposes in trade relations, and there's a lot, the graphs you produced are singularly inapt to establishing your point. Of course the Chinese have imposed tariffs on a higher percentage on American imports. That's because they import so much less. The salient point is that the USA has imposed tariffs on 250 billion dollars worth of chinese imports whereas China has imposed tariffs on 110 billion. The Chinese are actually at a disadvantage here since at most they could impose tariffs on 120 billion dollars worth of imports

If Trump really wanted to go after China for its unfair trade practices, then why has he alienated the EU, the Canadians, and the Japanese? These would be natural allies in such a fight. They also are plenty upset with the Chinese. Instead he is threatening trade wars against them. And has already imposed tariffs on aluminium and steel.