Do I need owner permission to sign a person to blue book of the house builded on a land which is usufruct?

[kd2000]

Hi,

I have a life usufructuary contract on a plot of land. I built a house on it, received house number, address along with a blue book which is EMPTY (no resident). 

 

I want to sign a Thai person into the book. Do I need a permission of the land owner to do that?

 

I also would like to sign in my self as resident into the house book. Land office says I could only have a yellow book which is special for farangs but but prior to it blue one needs to have a Thai resident. What is the logic behind that? 

 

Any advice regarding this case would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[ubonjoe]

No need for the landowners permission since the book is for the house not the land.

[kd2000]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

No need for the landowners permission since the book is for the house not the land.

OK. Let me ask additionaly.

 

1. Does that mean that I could sign in and out people at anytime I wish.

 

2. What responsibility or pottential issues do I take by signing someone in.

 

3. If I want to sign myself that has to be signed into a yellow book which is special for farang (got that info from few sources). And yellow book can be issued only if there is a blue one with thai resident who is a "boss of the house". True?

If yes I dont get the logic. Why cant I just sign my self into yellow book without having anyone in a blue one?

 

Whats more. Worth to mention that there was some document to obtain along with build permit which states weather the house belongs to the usufructuary or the owner. Have you ever came a cross that one? Unfortunately I dont have it. 

 

Thank you!

[Peterw42]

16 minutes ago, kd2000 said:

OK. Let me ask additionaly.

 

1. Does that mean that I could sign in and out people at anytime I wish.

 

2. What responsibility or pottential issues do I take by signing someone in.

 

3. If I want to sign myself that has to be signed into a yellow book which is special for farang (got that info from few sources). And yellow book can be issued only if there is a blue one with thai resident who is a "boss of the house". True?

If yes I dont get the logic. Why cant I just sign my self into yellow book without having anyone in a blue one?

 

Whats more. Worth to mention that there was some document to obtain along with build permit which states weather the house belongs to the usufructuary or the owner. Have you ever came a cross that one? Unfortunately I dont have it. 

 

Thank you!

It would come down to the local ampher rules, I have a yellow book for my place (and I am housemaster) with no Thai in the blue book. The ampher rules would also apply with a Thai going in the blue book, some amphers may want the land owners permission, especially if the Thai is going in as Housemaster.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Peterw42

[kd2000]

5 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

It would come down to the local ampher rules, I have a yellow book for my place (and I am housemaster) with no Thai in the blue book. The ampher rules would also apply with a Thai going in the blue book, some amphers would want the owners permission, especially if the Thai is going in as Housemaster.

Make sense! Giving usufruct is also up to the amper or land department head officer. 

 

What about responsibilities of having someone in a book?

 

Thanks!

[kd2000]

Well, let me ask in another way.

 

I actually don't need anybody in the book nor me in a yellow one. (Would be cool option but not a must).

 

What I need is my Thai partner to be legally able to rent the house on airbnb, Facebook or similar services.

 

What options do we have?

 

[Kwasaki]

38 minutes ago, kd2000 said:

What options do we have?

marriage.

[LukKrueng]

11 hours ago, kd2000 said:

Well, let me ask in another way.

 

I actually don't need anybody in the book nor me in a yellow one. (Would be cool option but not a must).

 

What I need is my Thai partner to be legally able to rent the house on airbnb, Facebook or similar services.

 

What options do we have?

 

Being registered in the blue book has nothing to do with the legal right to rent out the property as the blue book serves only as residential address of the people registered in the book and has nothing to do with ownership. If a person owns multiple houses / apartments he/she can only be registered in one (supposed to be the one they actually live in), yet they can still rent out the other properties.

You should take into consideration that renting a property for less than 30 days requires a hotel/guest house license. 

[Dania2019]

You only have yellow book - blue book is for thai 

[kd2000]

32 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

Being registered in the blue book has nothing to do with the legal right to rent out the property as the blue book serves only as residential address of the people registered in the book and has nothing to do with ownership. If a person owns multiple houses / apartments he/she can only be registered in one (supposed to be the one they actually live in), yet they can still rent out the other properties.

OK, what then gives the rights to the 3rd party to rent or actually subrent the room taking into account there is usufructuary.

I know usufructuary has rights to lease the property. So as me being usufructurary could I rent or lease the property for a long term to a 3rd person so he could then be subrenting it further on ? 

[kd2000]

44 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

 

You should take into consideration that renting a property for less than 30 days requires a hotel/guest house license. 

Not if it is less than 6 rooms?

Edited May 14, 2019 by kd2000

[LukKrueng]

1 hour ago, kd2000 said:

OK, what then gives the rights to the 3rd party to rent or actually subrent the room taking into account there is usufructuary.

I know usufructuary has rights to lease the property. So as me being usufructurary could I rent or lease the property for a long term to a 3rd person so he could then be subrenting it further on ? 

your right to the property are according to your contract with the owner. I have no idea about usufructuary laws/regulations but if you rent a house or condo unit the contract might specifically say if you are allowed or not allowed to sublet.

as for short term rentals ie less than 30 days, the number of rooms/units you have for let is irrelevant and you need the hotel/guest house license

[zhangxifu]

19 hours ago, kd2000 said:

Hi,

I have a life usufructuary contract on a plot of land. I built a house on it, received house number, address along with a blue book which is EMPTY (no resident). 

 

I want to sign a Thai person into the book. Do I need a permission of the land owner to do that?

 

I also would like to sign in my self as resident into the house book. Land office says I could only have a yellow book which is special for farangs but but prior to it blue one needs to have a Thai resident. What is the logic behind that? 

 

Any advice regarding this case would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

I thought that over 30 year leases are not legal. Also I have no understanding how the usufructuary affects these circumstances. If you have managed to build a house on the land legally and it has been issued a housebook, and all you had was the usufructuary contract to do all this, it should be enough to add you as the "jaobaan" in the house book as well.

Obviously if your lease of land is not for FOREVER then the land owner needs to give his approval for all these changes.

There is no need for anyone to be in the bluebook, you can be jaobaan or puasai in the yellow book. It sounds to me that the land office thinks there must be a thai jaobaan and you can only be added as puasai/resident. It dosn't really matter what the land office thinks anyway cos they do not handle they house book issue. Your local amphoe office does all the changes to house books. And knows how to do it. The owner can name anyone jaobaan, then jaobaan can name as many puasai/ residents as he wishes.

House book name is only census registration of your permanent address. The usufruct contract is the lease/ownership document.

[khunPer]

18 hours ago, kd2000 said:

OK. Let me ask additionaly.

 

1. Does that mean that I could sign in and out people at anytime I wish.

 

2. What responsibility or pottential issues do I take by signing someone in.

 

3. If I want to sign myself that has to be signed into a yellow book which is special for farang (got that info from few sources). And yellow book can be issued only if there is a blue one with thai resident who is a "boss of the house". True?

If yes I dont get the logic. Why cant I just sign my self into yellow book without having anyone in a blue one?

 

Whats more. Worth to mention that there was some document to obtain along with build permit which states weather the house belongs to the usufructuary or the owner. Have you ever came a cross that one? Unfortunately I dont have it. 

 

Thank you!

As others have said, the Blue House Book follows the house, not the land owner.

 

I own a house, with a Blue House Book, and myself I have a Yellow House Book for foreigners. I'm the House Master, so only I can allow Thais to be obtained in "my" Blue House Book. Signing someone – a Thai – in means that they are now permanent residents in the house, until they are signed into another house book; when that might happen, you will be notified to meet at the tessa ban office to have the name marked "deleted". But as others have stated, your local tessa ban office might have slightly different rules from my local tessa ban office; its tessa ban issuing and updating house books.

 

Obtaining a Yellow House Book for foreigners seems to be very different from province-to-province. Some posters reports it as an easy procedure, whilst for others it seem to be more difficult. For me, it was almost same procedure as if I had applied for "permanent residency", apart from I did not have to pass a language test, and I did not need to sing the national hymn (the tessa ban officers shall be happy that I did not sing for them).

 

Ownership of a new-built house is a number of documents showing the name of the owner of the house:

• Superficies agreement from the land owner, or other documentation for permission to build a house on the land
• Architect drawings with name of the coming house owner (for example the foreigner, having a usufruct servitude)
• Building permission with the name of the house owner
• Contract with building constructor(s) showing the name of the house owner
• Any money transfers for construction, showing the name of the house owner, for example that money has been transferred from the house owners account; or a signed receipt for cash payment including both owner's name, and building contractor's name.
• Any further documentation related to the house that show the name of the house owner, for example receipts from buying building materials

There is, to my knowledge and all postings I have read, not a single document showing ownership of a new built house on rented land, or land to be used in accordance with a servitude. When changing ownership, a house, separated from land, can be registered at the land office.

 

Keep all documentation safe, they are your only proof of house ownership.

????

[zhangxifu]

37 minutes ago, khunPer said:

As others have said, the Blue House Book follows the house, not the land owner.

 

I own a house, with a Blue House Book, and myself I have a Yellow House Book for foreigners. I'm the House Master, so only I can allow Thais to be obtained in "my" Blue House Book. Signing someone – a Thai – in means that they are now permanent residents in the house, until they are signed into another house book; when that might happen, you will be notified to meet at the tessa ban office to have the name marked "deleted". But as others have stated, your local tessa ban office might have slightly different rules from my local tessa ban office; its tessa ban issuing and updating house books.

 

Obtaining a Yellow House Book for foreigners seems to be very different from province-to-province. Some posters reports it as an easy procedure, whilst for others it seem to be more difficult. For me, it was almost same procedure as if I had applied for "permanent residency", apart from I did not have to pass a language test, and I did not need to sing the national hymn (the tessa ban officers shall be happy that I did not sing for them).

 

Ownership of a new-built house is a number of documents showing the name of the owner of the house:

• Superficies agreement from the land owner, or other documentation for permission to build a house on the land
• Architect drawings with name of the coming house owner (for example the foreigner, having a usufruct servitude)
• Building permission with the name of the house owner
• Contract with building constructor(s) showing the name of the house owner
• Any money transfers for construction, showing the name of the house owner, for example that money has been transferred from the house owners account; or a signed receipt for cash payment including both owner's name, and building contractor's name.
• Any further documentation related to the house that show the name of the house owner, for example receipts from buying building materials

There is, to my knowledge and all postings I have read, not a single document showing ownership of a new built house on rented land, or land to be used in accordance with a servitude. When changing ownership, a house, separated from land, can be registered at the land office.

 

Keep all documentation safe, they are your only proof of house ownership.

????

Thanks for the info and for clearing lots of things out. Could you please clarify one more point? How can you lawfully own a house that has no single contract to state the ownership? I assume you are meaning the use of usufruct for the land where the house lays.

You say you own a house. I think the law says you have build a house on someone's land and it's their house now. In case you have only leased the land for say 30 years, you should not be treated as the owner. If you cannot lease the land for FOREVER, how can you be the owner of something on someone else's land? How can you register a house at the land office?

I'm sorry if my question sounds stupid.

[RJRS1301]

19 hours ago, kd2000 said:

Well, let me ask in another way.

 

I actually don't need anybody in the book nor me in a yellow one. (Would be cool option but not a must).

 

What I need is my Thai partner to be legally able to rent the house on airbnb, Facebook or similar services.

 

What options do we have?

 

I thought Airbnb was banned in Thailand??

[kd2000]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

As others have said, the Blue House Book follows the house, not the land owner.

 

I own a house, with a Blue House Book, and myself I have a Yellow House Book for foreigners. I'm the House Master, so only I can allow Thais to be obtained in "my" Blue House Book. Signing someone – a Thai – in means that they are now permanent residents in the house, until they are signed into another house book; when that might happen, you will be notified to meet at the tessa ban office to have the name marked "deleted". But as others have stated, your local tessa ban office might have slightly different rules from my local tessa ban office; its tessa ban issuing and updating house books.

 

Obtaining a Yellow House Book for foreigners seems to be very different from province-to-province. Some posters reports it as an easy procedure, whilst for others it seem to be more difficult. For me, it was almost same procedure as if I had applied for "permanent residency", apart from I did not have to pass a language test, and I did not need to sing the national hymn (the tessa ban officers shall be happy that I did not sing for them).

 

Ownership of a new-built house is a number of documents showing the name of the owner of the house:

• Superficies agreement from the land owner, or other documentation for permission to build a house on the land
• Architect drawings with name of the coming house owner (for example the foreigner, having a usufruct servitude)
• Building permission with the name of the house owner
• Contract with building constructor(s) showing the name of the house owner
• Any money transfers for construction, showing the name of the house owner, for example that money has been transferred from the house owners account; or a signed receipt for cash payment including both owner's name, and building contractor's name.
• Any further documentation related to the house that show the name of the house owner, for example receipts from buying building materials

There is, to my knowledge and all postings I have read, not a single document showing ownership of a new built house on rented land, or land to be used in accordance with a servitude. When changing ownership, a house, separated from land, can be registered at the land office.

 

Keep all documentation safe, they are your only proof of house ownership.

????

Thank you so much for sharing all this useful info.

 

So as a foreigner and usufructuary I actually can be signed as house master but in a yellow book. I previously was aware that house master can be in a blue one and must be a Thai. That clears a lot....

 

Would you be also able and kind to advice on subrenting issue?

 

The law clearly states that a usufructuary has rights to lease the land to another person.

 

So logicaly thinking I could lease the land to a Thai person and then he will have rights to sublet the house because it lays on the land that has been leased to him?

And it doesn't actually matters whether I or him have been registered in a house book?

 

I'm sorry if the question isn't clear. Please ask for clarification if not. It was a bit of struggle to put that in English language for me ????

 

 

 

 

[zhangxifu]

Only the real owner of the house can put your name in the house book. His name is in the janot. Period. You do not own the house but lease it temporarily. Please do not use the term house owner erroneously. Someone might believe you and that would be false.

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, zhangxifu said:

Thanks for the info and for clearing lots of things out. Could you please clarify one more point? How can you lawfully own a house that has no single contract to state the ownership? I assume you are meaning the use of usufruct for the land where the house lays.

You say you own a house. I think the law says you have build a house on someone's land and it's their house now. In case you have only leased the land for say 30 years, you should not be treated as the owner. If you cannot lease the land for FOREVER, how can you be the owner of something on someone else's land? How can you register a house at the land office?

I'm sorry if my question sounds stupid.

No, you are not sounding stupid at all; I believe we are many that had to get use to "Thai way of thinking", and asked "stupid questions" during the process...????

 

You can own house, but not the land under the house.

 

Old time wooden Thai houses were constructed, so the literally could be folded and moved, or easily dismantled and moved, when the house owner moved to another land. Now it probably make little more sense that you can own a house, without ownership to the land under the house.

 

Lots of land was, and still is, for disposal for use only, and is not owned by the users. Many village deeds – for example "sor bor gor" and like – if not most of Thai village deeds, are not real ownership, but land granted for farming and like, and its land that cannot be sold; however the right of use can be inherited within the family. You can read more about land title deeds here.

 

In more modern time we build houses of concrete, but in theory its still the same: you own the house – that's why you need to show various documentation for house-ownership, including preferably a superficies agreement – and when you move, you are allowed to dismantle the house, and bring it with you. I agree in, that might not be that easy with a concrete house, but a modern time house could for example also be made from a number of 40-feet containers, which easily can be moved to another location. Some lease agreements for an empty plot of land might even state, that you shall return an empty plot of land, when the lease terminates. Anyway, you are allowed to remove the building you own, if other terms had not been agreed with the land owner.

 

We had a foreigner that made a small water-park on the island where I live. It was well made, and became a very successful business. However, when he should renew his lease agreement, the land owner wanted to increase the rent to a higher level, than the business actually could pay. He banged the whole well maintained water-park down, either because he had to, or because he didn't want to leave the business for the land owner.

 

So yes, I own my house – as we foreigners can – but I don't own the land under it; however I have secured myself in other ways, just like others might have secured their house for lifetime with a usufruct.

????

Edited May 14, 2019 by khunPer

[zhangxifu]

2 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

I thought Airbnb was banned in Thailand??

It is not banned. To lease out under 30 days contract requires a hotel license though.

If you are the legal owner you can legally lease out by contract. Owner is thai or foreigner, it doesn't matter. If the usufruct allows it, same. Nationality doesn't matter.

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, kd2000 said:

Thank you so much for sharing all this useful info.

 

So as a foreigner and usufructuary I actually can be signed as house master but in a yellow book. I previously was aware that house master can be in a blue one and must be a Thai. That clears a lot....

 

Would you be also able and kind to advice on subrenting issue?

 

The law clearly states that a usufructuary has rights to lease the land to another person.

 

So logicaly thinking I could lease the land to a Thai person and then he will have rights to sublet the house because it lays on the land that has been leased to him?

And it doesn't actually matters whether I or him have been registered in a house book?

 

I'm sorry if the question isn't clear. Please ask for clarification if not. It was a bit of struggle to put that in English language for me ????

Thanks for your reply. I think I understand your question – I'm also not native English speaker, and sometimes struggle to clearly explain it here...????

 

Looking at explanation of usufruct, it says that...

Quote

Renting out the property under usufruct

Unless restricted in the contract of usufruct the usufructuary is allowed to rent out the property without the consent of the real owner and keep the rent. In essence usufruct includes the right to register a rental exceeding 3 years with the Land Department (lease registration is required for the enforceability of a lease agreement by the tenant). In case of a foreign national as the usufructuary Land Offices will not allow registration of such lease as foreigners are not allowed to control or manage land in Thailand under the land laws of Thailand and also cannot obtain this right under the right of usufruct. The Land Registry does not accept a foreigner as 'landlord' in the lease, therefore local Land Offices make again a distinction between the rights of foreigners and Thais. In practice a foreign usufructuary can only rent out the property under usufruct for periods not exceeding 3 years at the time.

However, if a valid rental or lease has been established the lease/ rental is not terminated together with the end of the usufruct (Scj 2297/2541), i.e. by ruling of the highest court inThailand.

 

The source of the quote is here "Usufruct Property Rights", which explains most about usufruct agreements.

 

Did this answer your question?

????

[zhangxifu]

13 minutes ago, khunPer said:

No, you are not sounding stupid at all; I believe we are many that had to get use to "Thai way of thinking", and asked "stupid questions" during the process...????

 

You can own house, but not the land under the house.

 

Old time wooden Thai houses were constructed, so the literally could be folded and moved, or easily dismantled and moved, when the house owner moved to another land. Now it probably make little more sense that you can own a house, without ownership to the land under the house.

 

Lots of land was, and still is, for disposal for use only, and is not owned by the users. Many village deeds – for example "sor bor gor" and like – if not most of Thai village deeds, are not real ownership, but land granted for farming and like, and its land that cannot be sold; however the right of use can be inherited within the family. You can read more about land title deeds here.

 

In more modern time we build houses of concrete, but in theory its still the same: you own the house – that's why you need to show various documentation for house-ownership, including preferably a superficies agreement – and when you move, you are allowed to dismantle the house, and bring it with you. I agree in, that might not be that easy with a concrete house, but a modern time house could for example also be made from a number of 40-feet containers, which easily can be moved to another location. Some lease agreements for an empty plot of land might even state, that you shall return an empty plot of land, when the lease terminates. Anyway, you are allowed to remove the building you own, if other terms had not been agreed with the land owner.

 

We had a foreigner that made a small water-park on the island where I live. It was well made, and became a very successful business. However, when he should renew his lease agreement, the land owner wanted to increase the rent to a higher level, than the business actually could pay. He banged the whole well maintained water-park down, either because he had to, or because he didn't want to leave the business for the land owner.

 

So yes, I own my house – as we foreigners can – but I don't own the land under it; however I have secured myself in other ways, just like others might have secured their house for lifetime with a usufruct.

????

So you mean you want to pay extra to remove your house after the temporary lease is over? Did you say that there is no janot issued on the land you have built your house on? So you are squatting on uncharted farmland?

Lifetime usufruct? Lifetime of what? There are only temporary leases. That's it.

If you are a legal house owner your name is in janot and you can also sell your house with the land. The legal owner can name person to enter to house book.

 

[khunPer]

20 minutes ago, zhangxifu said:

So you mean you want to pay extra to remove your house after the temporary lease is over? Did you say that there is no janot issued on the land you have built your house on? So you are squatting on uncharted farmland?

Lifetime usufruct? Lifetime of what? There are only temporary leases. That's it.

If you are a legal house owner your name is in janot and you can also sell your house with the land. The legal owner can name person to enter to house book.

Thanks for your reply.

 

A chanute (janot) title deed is the highest level of land deeds – i.e. real free hold – a house build with permission from the land owner, i.e. superficies agreement or like, on leased or rented, or otherwise servitude, land rights, is not part of the land title deed.

 

Yes, depending of the text in the agreement with the land owner, you might need to pay for removing any construction, or like, you made on the land.

 

The land title under my house is chanute. I'm not a land squatter, and even a lower title deed would let the owner permission to issue a superfices agreement for me. There was a house on the land, before mine, build when the land has "nor sor sarm" (NS3) title deed. The title deed were later upgraded to chanute title deed. I also got permission from the local tessa ban office to remove that house, when I applied for building permission for "my house".

 

However, land squatters actually can have habitation rights in Thailand, depending of how long time they have been squatting the land. That is why its important to show that a land is used.

Quote

• If a squatter is in possession of land for an uninterrupted period of 10 years in case of a Chanote (section 1382) ('and have peacefully and openly possessed the property belonging to another, with the intention to be its owner he acquires ownership of it'), they can apply to the Land Office for a deed of ownership. So, if you hold land under Chanote but a squatter takes possession and you do nothing to remove that squatter from the land for 10 years, then you could lose that land to the squatter. As this is only one year in case of possession (section 1374 Civil and Commercial Code) it is not uncommon for someone else to claim possession over (part of) such land.

Rights are depending of the title on the deed, you can read more about all the titles here.

 

A usufruct servitude can be granted for life of the beneficiary – but cannot be inherited – or for a specified length of time, but not exceeding 30-years. The lifetime usufruct can therefore run longer time than 30 years. 

Quote

Term of the usufruct

The right of usufruct can be created for a period of time up to 30 years or for the life of a person or persons. If the right of usufruct is granted to a juristic person the period cannnot exceed 30 years.

If a usufruct is created for a period of time the usufruct remains depending on the life of the person (or persons) granted the right of usufruct. If the owner of a property grants to B the right of usufruct for a period of 30 years and B dies after 20 years the usufruct will be terminated after 20 years and the property will return to the owner. The right of usufruct distinguishes itself in this matter from for example the right of supericies (which is an inheritable right if registered for a period of time).

You can read more about usufruct here.

 

No, to your last paragraph, a legal house owner's name might not appear on a chanute title deed, or any other title deeds, as title deeds are issued for the land. But your might be able to register a house (only), when its resold.

Quote

Buildings (apart from condos in a licensed condominium building) do not have a separate ownership deed in addition to the land tile deed.

and

Quote

How to own a house distinct from the land it is on

In a standard situation a real estate sale in Thailand involves land and house. The owner of the land is the owner of the things fixed to it or forming a body with the land (section 139Civil and Commercial Code). There are exceptions, and for example in case of a foreigner buying real estate in Thailand ownership of a house can be registered and transferred separate from the land it stands on. In case ownership of a house is transferred separate from the land the transfer procedure must be in accordance with the Thailand Civil and Commercial Code (Book IV 'Property') and:

1. be in writing, and
2. registered with the Land Department's branch or provincial office.

Source and read more: "Buying and owning a house in Thailand".

 

You can actually sell a foreign owned house, but the right to use the land is limited to whatever agreement has been made for the land under the house. If you look in the classified property section, you will find houses for sale both on leased land, and on freehold land, i.e. a chanute title deed. Remember that only few foreigners actually can own land in Thailand; you need to obtain an "investor visa" – use to be 40 million baht invested in specified items – and you will be limited to one land plot of no more than 1 rai, and to be used for habitation (a home) only.

 

The house book, whatever color, has nothing to do with the land title deed. Title deeds are issued by the land office, whilst house books – and building permissions – are issued by the tessa ban office.

Quote

The Thai House Book

A Thai house book (Ta.Bian.Baan - read more (external)) should not be confused with a house ownership document. A house book is only a house address and resident registration document issued and administrated by the local government district amphur. This is not an important document for foreigners and unless the foreigner has residency in Thailand he is not registered in a blue house book, even though he is under Thai law regarded as the legal owner of the house. A special yellow house book for foreigners can be obtained and depending on the location the requirements for issuing a yellow book could include a work permit or Thai marriage certificate, non-immigrant visa and ownership document (condo title deed or the land office sale of a structure document). The document that could be described as the house ownership document (separate from the land) is the building permit (issued by the local Or.Bor.Tor) or the Land Office sale of a structure document issued by the Land Department.

Source, including information about owning a house, can be found here.

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[kd2000]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

 

Did this answer your question?

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In my simple understanding that says..

1. You can not lease (be a land lord) unless you are Thai.

 

2. You can rent it out but for no more than 3 years per contract which seems to be a solution in my case...

 

Am I missing something?

 

Your help is truly awesome????, really appreciated.

[khunPer]

39 minutes ago, kd2000 said:

In my simple understanding that says..

1. You can not lease (be a land lord) unless you are Thai.

 

2. You can rent it out but for no more than 3 years per contract which seems to be a solution in my case...

 

Am I missing something?

 

Your help is truly awesome????, really appreciated.

That's also how I read it – i.e. a foreigner can only rent out, or lease out, a usufruct right for periods up to 3 years, as any lease of longer terms than 3 years need to be registered at the land office, which don't accept a foreigner to be in control of land.

 

Quote

Section 538. A hire of immovable property is not enforceable by action unless there be some written evidence signed by the party liable. If the hire is for more than three years or for the life of the letter or hirer, it is enforceable only for three years unless it is made in writing and registered by the competent official.

Source: "Translation Thailand Lease Law (tenancy)".

 

Check that your usufruct don't have any limitation on rent or lease.

[zhangxifu]

1 hour ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your reply.

 

A chanute (janot) title deed is the highest level of land deeds – i.e. real free hold – a house build with permission from the land owner, i.e. superficies agreement or like, on leased or rented, or otherwise servitude, land rights, is not part of the land title deed.

 

Yes, depending of the text in the agreement with the land owner, you might need to pay for removing any construction, or like, you made on the land.

 

The land title under my house is chanute. I'm not a land squatter, and even a lower title deed would let the owner permission to issue a superfices agreement for me. There was a house on the land, before mine, build when the land has "nor sor sarm" (NS3) title deed. The title deed were later upgraded to chanute title deed. I also got permission from the local tessa ban office to remove that house, when I applied for building permission for "my house".

 

However, land squatters actually can have habitation rights in Thailand, depending of how long time they have been squatting the land. That is why its important to show that a land is used.

Rights are depending of the title on the deed, you can read more about all the titles here.

 

A usufruct servitude can be granted for life of the beneficiary – but cannot be inherited – or for a specified length of time, but not exceeding 30-years. The lifetime usufruct can therefore run longer time than 30 years. 

You can read more about usufruct here.

 

No, to your last paragraph, a legal house owner's name might not appear on a chanute title deed, or any other title deeds, as title deeds are issued for the land. But your might be able to register a house (only), when its resold.

and

Source and read more: "Buying and owning a house in Thailand".

 

You can actually sell a foreign owned house, but the right to use the land is limited to whatever agreement has been made for the land under the house. If you look in the classified property section, you will find houses for sale both on leased land, and on freehold land, i.e. a chanute title deed. Remember that only few foreigners actually can own land in Thailand; you need to obtain an "investor visa" – use to be 40 million baht invested in specified items – and you will be limited to one land plot of no more than 1 rai, and to be used for habitation (a home) only.

 

The house book, whatever color, has nothing to do with the land title deed. Title deeds are issued by the land office, whilst house books – and building permissions – are issued by the tessa ban office.

Source, including information about owning a house, can be found here.

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You keep changing your story all the time. Now you said your house without land can be registered at Land Dept. Before you said there is no document stating ownership. And you think there will be a lot of buyers for your house sale when you cannot include access the the land it stands on???

Sorry, but all that sounds like a terrible investment. I only buy janots I can sell later without third party's help. I call that owning. There would never be any problems at amphoe with census registration either.

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, zhangxifu said:

You keep changing your story all the time. Now you said your house without land can be registered at Land Dept. Before you said there is no document stating ownership. And you think there will be a lot of buyers for your house sale when you cannot include access the the land it stands on???

Sorry, but all that sounds like a terrible investment. I only buy janots I can sell later without third party's help. I call that owning. There would never be any problems at amphoe with census registration either.

Thanks for your comment, and no, I don't change anything.

 

I talk in general, not specific of "my house", if not clearly mentioned.
 

If you read carefully what I say, and check the quoted links, a new build house ownership cannot be registered. However, if a house is resold, and the documentation I mentioned in an earlier post is in place, separate ownership without land can be registered for a house.

 

You cannot buy a chanote title land, or any other titled land, as foreigner – only if you are one the 40+ million baht investors having an investor visa – so what you say about that you "only buy janots I can sell later without third party's help" makes no sense to me at all. Perhaps you can specify, what it is you can buy, and sell, and how?

 

I'm not sure you understand, or read, what I post, or perhaps I don't say it clear enough?

One can secure the land under one's house in various ways, for example by a usufruct servitude, supplemented with a superficies agreement, or by way of using other form of contracts.
 

You say it sounds like a "terrible investment"; however most of us building a house for a "home in paradise" don't consider it as an investment, its a home to live in. But looking at the long-term side of "investment", you can compare it with renting a similar home. Typically a rent is between 8 percent and 12 percent a year of the cost. So most, if not all, financial figures taking into consideration, after 15 years continuous rent, you have paid for your home, but you don't "own" anything. "Investing" in a house in Thailand, in same comparison, you "rent for free" after 15 years; a 30-year land lease under a house can make sense here.

 

If I should have rented a house similar to the one I built – and now I talk about "my house" – and at similar location, I would have paid it all in less than 10 years, i.e. it is paid by now, also the cost for land under the house. So any price I could sell it for now, if I so wished, would be mark-up compared to renting, also after taxation. Actually, in real terms I can get more for my house now, than it costed me, so it has not that bad an "investment".

 

But – because there is a "but" – in some cases "investing" in property can be business. Property is mainly down to location, and location, and location. So with the right location you can often resell with a mark-up – in the part of Thailand where I live, and especially if the property is in the upper end of the price range – a 100 percent mark up is possible within a 10-year period, in some cases more in shorter time; often such a deal includes some level of control of the land under the house.

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[zhangxifu]

6 hours ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your comment, and no, I don't change anything.

 

I talk in general, not specific of "my house", if not clearly mentioned.
 

If you read carefully what I say, and check the quoted links, a new build house ownership cannot be registered. However, if a house is resold, and the documentation I mentioned in an earlier post is in place, separate ownership without land can be registered for a house.

 

You cannot buy a chanote title land, or any other titled land, as foreigner – only if you are one the 40+ million baht investors having an investor visa – so what you say about that you "only buy janots I can sell later without third party's help" makes no sense to me at all. Perhaps you can specify, what it is you can buy, and sell, and how?

 

I'm not sure you understand, or read, what I post, or perhaps I don't say it clear enough?

One can secure the land under one's house in various ways, for example by a usufruct servitude, supplemented with a superficies agreement, or by way of using other form of contracts.
 

You say it sounds like a "terrible investment"; however most of us building a house for a "home in paradise" don't consider it as an investment, its a home to live in. But looking at the long-term side of "investment", you can compare it with renting a similar home. Typically a rent is between 8 percent and 12 percent a year of the cost. So most, if not all, financial figures taking into consideration, after 15 years continuous rent, you have paid for your home, but you don't "own" anything. "Investing" in a house in Thailand, in same comparison, you "rent for free" after 15 years; a 30-year land lease under a house can make sense here.

 

If I should have rented a house similar to the one I built – and now I talk about "my house" – and at similar location, I would have paid it all in less than 10 years, i.e. it is paid by now, also the cost for land under the house. So any price I could sell it for now, if I so wished, would be mark-up compared to renting, also after taxation. Actually, in real terms I can get more for my house now, than it costed me, so it has not that bad an "investment".

 

But – because there is a "but" – in some cases "investing" in property can be business. Property is mainly down to location, and location, and location. So with the right location you can often resell with a mark-up – in the part of Thailand where I live, and especially if the property is in the upper end of the price range – a 100 percent mark up is possible within a 10-year period, in some cases more in shorter time; often such a deal includes some level of control of the land under the house.

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Thanks! I know very well what I can own. The issue here was that your said that you own your house, which is not true. You have built a house on a leased land that you can use, in the best case, as long as you need it. Regarding selling your house on someones land, I don't see why would anyone pay you one baht for that. You could be demanded more costs at any time though by the real owner of the house and the land, who or what ever it is. Have fun with all that but you do not own a house in the general meaning of the word. Other issue was the gov office. I am very sure they don't see you owning the house at all also. It kinda goes for everything in life, that if you need to prove something with thousands of words of legalities, when there is a simple solution, name in janot, it's not really real.

[kd2000]

13 hours ago, khunPer said:

 

Check that your usufruct don't have any limitation on rent or lease.

It's been some 7 years but if I recall the written contract was just optional and we had skipped it, so to be under general usufruct laws. All I have is a chanod with my name on it following owners name.

 

Would you please also advice on the rent?

 

If I do rent it out for a fee would I possibly break the law from some other side? One of my concerns is that having an income from a rent or lease could actually be qualified as business operation which would than require work permit or business registration and/or visa.

 

Could I rent it out wothout a fee or just write a formal permision to use the property for future short term rentals as airbnb by a 3rd party (Thai Independent person) ?

 

I'm currently on a ED visa... Is there something I still do not know? ????????????

 

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by kd2000

[khunPer]

19 minutes ago, kd2000 said:

It's been some 7 years but if I recall the written contract was just optional and we had skipped it, so to be under general usufruct laws. All I have is a chanod with my name on it following owners name.

 

Would you please also advice on the rent?

 

If I do rent it out for a fee would I possibly break the law from some other side? One of my concerns is that having an income from a rent or lease could actually be qualified as business operation which would than require work permit or business registration and/or visa.

 

Could I rent it out wothout a fee or just write a formal permision to use the property for future short term rentals as airbnb by a 3rd party (Thai Independent person) ?

 

I'm currently on a ED visa... Is there something I still do not know? ????????????

The standard usufruct agreement, here in English translation, don't seem to mention any limitations in renting out, only in transferring the usufruct rights. But I'm not familiar with usufruct details, so hopefully some forum-member with experience, or better knowledge, can answer that; eventually consult a lawyer.

 

Rent. Property rent is often "internationally" calculated as 8 percent to 12 percent a year, but its also depending of the market. Thais that I know renting out bungalows and houses for longer terms, calculate 10 percent a year, and adjust their price after length of period, season, and demand. Location might change a rental price, so best is to find similar property for rent, and check prices. In some areas it might be difficult to rent out, whilst in other areas folks might come and ask, even you don't have any sign "For rent" (it often happens for me, but I might live in a prime location).

 

The work permit thing is difficult, and there has been other threads, or posts, about it; mainly concerning condos. You should search and check there, but I think the conclusion often was that if its a single condo, then you don't need a work permit; whilst if you have, or control, a number of condos (think to remember 3, or more than 3 was mentioned), you need a work permit. Also income taxation could be a matter, however I cannot give you an answer.

 

Airbnb has also been mentioned in a number of threads. It was mentioned that its depending of time, if less than 30-days you need a hotel registration, but also the number of units, or rooms, matters, like with the about 3 units when talking about condos.

 

Hopefully some with more experience and knowledge can answer you; or try to open a new thread with the question.

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