Alzheimer's patient forced out of Thailand: Daughter tells Thaivisa they love Thailand but immigration rule changes mean mum must go

[connda]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

A home that specializes in Alzheimer's care in Chiang Mai called Care Resort was found.

I wonder if Care Resort understand how much business they will lose in the future due to the Thai government's rigid rules, complete lack of compassion and humanity, and now obviously there unwillingness to issue Medical Visas for long-term medical care of a disease like Alzheimer's Disease.

Why the obvious is not being discussed, even in this forum, is what amazes me.  Why can the woman not obtain a Medical Visa for her long term medical care of Alzheiner's Disease. 

[elliss]

1 hour ago, Alan Michael said:

Obviously Thai immigration aren't very compassionate Buddhists.

 

       It is putting the fear of God , into  the  old age , expat community in Land of smile .

      What if this happened to me or you.  Mental heath or a situation where you have no control over your choices.

       Cause for concern. 

        

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by elliss

[TEFLKrabi]

As much as most of us hate the rules, imagine what happens if you give just one exception. The floodgates will open with people pleading their cases and paying to be certified by doctors as being sick.

[SuwadeeS]

Thai immigration missing humanity. Hopefully Thailand will soon get the bill for this "wrong doing".

People should spread the word. Post all over the spcial media the practice of the Thai culture. Including the dual pricing.

There are many advantages to move to the Philippines. The mentality is nice, its also cleaner, people get treated fairer than here and less double pricing. Specially for retirement people there is another advantage, Philipinne people have more experience and patience with care taking. Finally, the Philippine people are more deligent and have a higher level of cleaniness. (Remember the dirty toilet, yesterday in Thai Visa.) I have seen a lot of these.

[Chongalulu]

4 hours ago, mok199 said:

My prediction is Our Commander Prayut, will swoop in with cameras blazing and sieze this golden opportunity to save the day.. ''never let a sad story go to waste''..

Don’t forget the pointing....

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, rexall said:

The article says the pay B85K monthly to the care facility.  Where is the money coming from? If it is coming from overseas, which it should be, then why not deposit it in the bank and then pay the care facility?  "Fishy" may be a unnecessarily pejorative, but something doesn't add up. Perhaps the article is just badly written?

 

Exactly what I was wondering.

 

Presumably they are directly paying the facility and TI is refusing to accept that (silly, but not unusual with a bureaucracy).

 

But all they'd need to do is first transfer the funds from abroad into a Thai bank account and then pay the facility out of that.

 

 

[Time Traveller]

 

 

4 hours ago, donnacha said:

My sympathies on that situation, it must have been incredibly upsetting for you and your wife.

You are, however, missing what I'm saying about the couple in this particular story. I am not suggesting they plead their case with the authorities - which might be part of what they are trying to do in drumming up this publicity - because, I agree with you, in this in this situation the only solution is to deposit $25K in a bank and let it sit there until their mother dies.

Given their backstory, $25K should not be a problem.

They say that they are American. They are in their 50's. They say they ran a Web design company which was so successful that they managed to sell it - you have to attain a certain size for it to be worth anyone's while to buy your company.

Now, for some reason, they are no longer able to use their valuable tech and business skills to drum up a relatively small amount of money. Even a coder without a history of business success would be able to earn that amount of money in about a month of working hard on freelance projects. There are two of them, it should be even easier.

Neither are they able to turn to family, friends, business colleagues, people they have helped in the past, members of their church or other groups they have been involved in.

Sadly for their mother, the reality is probably that the claimed business success never happened and they long ago burned all their bridges with friends and family.

 

Did you not read the story?

They already have 800,000 baht in the mother's bank account allowing her to stay until next year. However, there's obviously some other issues and they are sick of having to meet the ever changing Thai immigration rules regarding the stay requirements.

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Time Traveller

[rexall]

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

I feel for this family, I really do. But what most people are not willing to accept is that Thailand is not (and not interested to be) an immigrant country like USA, Australia, NZ and other countries. Thailand is allowing foreigners to stay here long term providing it benefits Thailand according to the Thai government's definition, and NOT by the self definition of those who want to stay here.

So there are different types of visas by which people who fit the conditions of those visas can come and stay here. However, as we all know, many people "trick" the system and stay here even though they don't really comply with the conditions of any type of visa or permit to stay (visa runs, using an agent to falsely show the 800K in the bank etc'). So obviously the more strict regulations and following of the regulations is an attempt to stop the abuse of the system and as sad as it might be in some cases, those who can't meet the demands of the visa/permit have to find another place to live in. 

 

If Thailand is a Buddhist country, above and beyond Buddhist compassion, it is unfortunate the gov seems to lack the wisdom to realize that it cannot control every aspect of reality. This results in them becoming cranky when, as the OP says, people "trick" the system. If a system can be tricked, it is going to be tricked. Duh!  Trying to repress this results in draconian over-reach, implementing policies that cannot be elegantly enforced.  Without bothering to consider the unintended consequences, it in  turn generates lack of respect  in visitors, immigrants and citizens, and a loss of face in the global community. Sigh!

[KKr]

6 hours ago, aussienam said:

The reality is IMO that the Thai establishment no longer wish for low end expat spenders, preferring for upper middle and high end income earning expats.  Health insurance is obviously an issue as is other issues that could burden the Thai economy - but I feel in the whole scheme of things that this would only account for a small percentage.  I get that having people here financially self sufficient is a good idea, but their requirements I feel are too rigid and with the new laws it makes those who have been doing the right thing all along being punished.  Of course there are those who have caused problems and hence the crackdown and changes.  But I feel that there may be a bigger strategy here to change the face of those who come here.  There is always the Philippines, Cambodia, Vietnam and probably a few other places as well that in time will cater better for expats and those needing care.   Sad for the lady though.  A bit of flexibility in circumstances like this would be good IMO.  

couple of notes:
1) lower end spenders:  
on behalf of the Lady mentioned in the post, 85000 * 12 = 1.020.000 is being spent, considerably more that the required annual deposit.
and indeed considerably more affordable than the cost of similar facilities in the West. This, along with the caring mentality of staff, one of the main reasons for certain patient categories to be treated here. Wonder what the overall annual revenue is of the foreign patients in care facilities in Thailand.
Therefore the Immigration's point of view is, in my opinion, incomprehensible, highly irrational and seems not to have been driven by careful considerations, or rationally assessing an application, or by the desire to keep a few medical sector jobs in Thailand..

2) Health insurance may be an issue, but not because of unpaid medical bills of, as I seem to remember 300 million THB or approximately 10 million USD per annum of all foreigners combined what to me seems less than a drop of water in a bucket in the bigger scale of things.
Wonder what percentage it is of all bills issued for the care of foreigners, and would be grateful if someone has found some statistics on that !!.
Also, I do wonder how many Thai bills are not being paid, or whether all people that do not have the means to go to Private Clinics or Hospitals, do get medical care, or nursing care, or palatial care on time, all the time.
 

[baansgr]

39 minutes ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

Excellent news and not before time.

Of course although the main reason behind it is money laundering however countries that do not offer ownership to UK Nationals is also being reviewed, no reciporacal agreement, no ownership.

[Wake Up]

4 hours ago, donnacha said:

My sympathies on that situation, it must have been incredibly upsetting for you and your wife.

You are, however, missing what I'm saying about the couple in this particular story. I am not suggesting they plead their case with the authorities - which might be part of what they are trying to do in drumming up this publicity - because, I agree with you, in this in this situation the only solution is to deposit $25K in a bank and let it sit there until their mother dies.

Given their backstory, $25K should not be a problem.

They say that they are American. They are in their 50's. They say they ran a Web design company which was so successful that they managed to sell it - you have to attain a certain size for it to be worth anyone's while to buy your company.

Now, for some reason, they are no longer able to use their valuable tech and business skills to drum up a relatively small amount of money. Even a coder without a history of business success would be able to earn that amount of money in about a month of working hard on freelance projects. There are two of them, it should be even easier.

Neither are they able to turn to family, friends, business colleagues, people they have helped in the past, members of their church or other groups they have been involved in.

Sadly for their mother, the reality is probably that the claimed business success never happened and they long ago burned all their bridges with friends and family.

 

I also believe the mom’s social security or social security disability check  is probably paying 60,000 baht more or less of the moms monthly 85,000 bill.  If the mom had assets then someone has spent and depleted the mom’s assets.

 

 People are quick to blame others and tell a good story. But I don’t buy this story as a lot is missing and to blame immigration or anyone else in this situation is IMO misguided at best and opportunistic at worst. 

[garyk]

Honestly I feel sorry for anyone having to put up with all the immigration nonsense.

No grand fathering for the expats already there? Thailand is just a crummy place to retire IMO. 

 

[ttrd]

3 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

 

 

Did you not read the story?

They already have 800,000 baht in the mother's bank account allowing her to stay until next year. However, there's obviously some other issues and they are sick of having to meet the ever changing Thai immigration rules regarding the stay requirements.

 

Not sick of it, but cant afford …  

 

READ - "They simply don't have enough money to deposit 800,000 baht in the bank and leave it there"

[Duck J Butters]

So it's ok for Europe and America to be anti-immigrant and nationalistic but not okay for Thailand? The double standard is unreal.

 

In a devastating blow to Europe, The Brexit Party which Nigel Farage formed just six weeks ago, won in a landslide victory of ridiculousness. Never before has a newly formed party ever won...ever. Conservative and Labour parties lost double-digit support. HUGE. Take home: Nigel Farage is anti-muslim and anti-immigrant.

 

Matteo Salvini, the leader of Italy's far-right League party, received 34 percent of the vote and says "A new Europe is born."

This is true. The League will have massive influence in the E.U. now. Take home: Salvini is openly anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-feminism and pro-male. 

 

That wimpy tool, Marcon, from France also got a beat down by far-right candidate Marie Le Pen. Take home: Le Penn is anti-immigrant.

 

Donald Trump, the orangest man in the world, defies all odds in 2016 and becomes the most powerful man on planet Earth. He is on a wrecking ball trajectory of total chaos and heading for a landslide victory in 2020. Donald Trump is pro-best-and-brightest-immigrants-only, pro-male, pro-making-money, pro-what-is-best-for-American-only.

 

President Xi of China is probably the most nationalistic of all of the above.

 

Why is Thailand heald to a different standard when the rest of the world isn't? All that Thailand asks is that you have 800,000 baht in your bank account. Really, is that asking too much? Can you imagine if it was this easy in America or Europe? Personally, I think 800,000 baht is too low. Thailand needs to make sure that you have enough money to take care of yourself.  It's that simple. They can't just have loads of riff-raff clogging up their hospitals and freeloading off the fat of the land. Not anymore. It's time for Thailand to grow up as a country.  

 

Thailand's immigration rules are still extremely lax by comparison to the rest of the world. And yes, like many have stated already, there are plenty of people you can bribe to avoid this bank account issue entirely. While I prefer to follow the rules with precision,  I have many friends here in Thailand that laugh at me as I stand in line at immigration every year and actually show up in person for my 90-day reports.  Personally, I prefer to abide by the law. It's just easier and reduces anxiety. However, I know plenty of people that have been in Thailand on E-visas for decades and nothing has changed for them in 2019. They get a heads up before a raid happens ( only done for show 1x or 2x / year ), they completely bypass customs at the airports using "vip services", and they don't have the slightest worry in the world that things will become difficult for them. Personally, I don't get what everyone is so afraid of? DM if you are that strapped for cash. I can show you an easy way to make money here in Thailand by just using your computer.

 

While this article is sad and has compelled me to donate the 800,000 baht to this women, I really can't help but wonder how her relatives could have lived in Thailand for this long and be so clueless as to how things work in this country???? Doesn't compute for me. Perhaps getting people like me to donate money to them is exactly what they are hoping for. Either way, it's the least I can do as I've been very fortunate in life and it sounds like they need the money. Happy to help.

 

 

[connda]

If the Thai government wishes Thailand to be "The Hub of Medical Tourism" they better put together a list of diseases that they consider to be Diseases that qualify for a Medical Visa and which diseases that they considered to be Diseases that only qualify for a Retirement Visa.

We now know that the Thai government does not consider Alzheimer's to be a medical condition.  They consider Alzheimer's Disease to be a retirement condition.  ????

For anyone considering Thailand has a place for the treatment of diseases that require long-term care - beware!  You may wish to reconsider.

Can you imagine someone with a terminal disease or end-of-life disease spending their funds for end-of-life medical care only to be arrested in their hospital beds, unceremoniously throw into Immigration Detention and left to languish or die in their own s**t while awaiting deportation?

Disturbing in it's complete lack of human caring.

[rexall]

55 minutes ago, RandolphGB said:

Why should the rules be changed for one family? Where does it stop? Who gets concessions to the rules?

 

If they allow one person to stay, the next lawyer will use it as historical precedent and then the person after that. Soon the law becomes so blurred it's meaningless. 

Should???  Should-shmuld!  You want to play the should game? Why shouldn't Imm behave compassionately on a case-by-case basis?  After all, Thailand takes pride in being a Buddhist country, compassion being a hallmark of Buddhist teachings!

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

I disagree with you they are paying B 85k per month for the ladies stay which amounts to B 1,02 mil per year. Immigration however want B 800k on top of this, why? Why cant they allow the B 65k pm for her which is less than the B 85k she is paying. Its been reported that CM immigration are refusing the B 65k pm for Americans and insist on the B 800k, why?

I feel bad for the lady with Alzheimer's, but something is fishy about this story.

An American husband and wife team who ran a Web design business successful enough to be sold, and still relatively young, are unable to drum up one bank deposit of $25K which will allow their mother to stay in Thailand until she passes.

During the course of their business careers, did they not forge strong enough relationships with clients or collaborators to be able to ask around for help now that they have a real problem?

Don't they have have any family or family friends in America? Is gathering $25K really such an insurmountable challenge? 

Do they really think that living in Manila is going to be that much cheaper than Chiang Mai?

Do they understand how much harder it is to find a place to live there, and how much more expensive rent and utilities are?

Have they ever experienced the existential struggle of trying to find edible food in the Philippines?

Surely, if they had made any friends at all in during their 4 years in Thailand, someone would have pointed out that they can simply pay $600 per year for an agent to grease the wheels for them and stay right here in Chiang Mai. I mean, seriously, that is less that what their flights to Manila will cost them.
 
My guess is that their back story is bullshit and this is an attempt to salt gullible people, farang and Thai, into donating money to them. They have no intention of folding up their tents and moving their circus to Manila.

 

Sent from my SM-A730F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Mitkof Island]

Focus on the REAL foreign criminals, visa over stayers , those not paying their bills, and those foreigners who have a history of just being a plain pain in the ass while in Thailand. Problem is the government is pushing many of the good foreigners out. The bad ones will find a way to hide as they always have. Do you realize many foreigners just hide in smaller towns and never get anywhere near the police or borders ?

[CapraIbex]

Immigration rules have nothing to do with religion, anywhere!

 

The capacity for "feeling for another" can be lessened over time due to repetitiveness of job duties and other factors; Compassion fatigue is real.

[Tajasia]

Thais want to sell condos but won't let families stay here. They want your money in a Thai bank but you can't open a Thai bank account without a what ? Work permit

Thailand authorities can't even get there systems corresponding due to the JUNTA no reforms policy lol. Laughing stock 

[rexall]

15 minutes ago, Duck J Butters said:

So it's ok for Europe and America to be anti-immigrant and nationalistic but not okay for Thailand? The double standard is unreal.

 

<snip>

 

 

Phooey! The U.S. currently takes in 1,000,000 legal immigrants annually. Add to that a vast number of illegal immigrants who live more or less "normal" lives unmolested by immigration enforcement.  How nationalistic! How xenophobic! How anti-immigrant! The U.S. should be ashamed!

[luckyluke]

42 minutes ago, foxzami said:

...Gone is  the renewal option of proving  a person has a annual income of THB800000...

On and on the same mantra.

 

No 400/800000 on a Thai bank, no monthly minimum transfer of 65000, except for 3 nationalities.

 

This is the reality as per now.

 

 

[gusincebu]

“There she will easily get a three year visa without bothersome financial hassles”
 
How? What kind of PI Visa?  I researched living in Manila or Cebu for years and discovered the PI’s version of the Retirement Visa is more difficult to obtain the LOS.  

You can stay 3 yrs on a tourist/ temporary visa ( 9a I think ) .
Need to renew .. can get 6 monthly renewal s , at least 2 of those , and 60 day renewals ,up to 3 yrs ,then you must leave the country ( visa run ) ,and good for another 3 yrs .

Sent from my Mi A2 Lite using Tapatalk

[donnacha]

24 minutes ago, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

I disagree with you they are paying B 85k per month for the ladies stay which amounts to B 1,02 mil per year. Immigration however want B 800k on top of this, why?

I do not have time to respond to every post that quoted me, but I see that a surprising amount of people, including you, are confused about how the system works.

The official reasoning behind the 800K requirement is that this is additional money you have available to you to cover emergencies such as medical treatment for heart attacks, car accidents, strokes etc.

The Thai government does not want to get stuck with these costs. Neither does any government - even in the UK, if a British citizen is out of the UK for six months, they are no longer entitled to free National Health Service treatment.

For most humans, the medical costs of their final month before death will exceed the medical costs of the entire life that went before.

When they see that this unfortunate woman can only just about afford the cost of her monthly care, the immigration officials know that this leaves her with nothing to cover any number of expensive medical problems she may also suffer in addition to her Alzheimer's. Their whole job is to make sure that Thailand does not end up paying for that.

I am not saying that what they do is good, but it is their responsibility. If you asked them about this specific case, they would ask why a developing country such as Thailand should have to pay the end-of-life costs of a lady from a developed country such as the United States.
 
 

Edited May 28, 2019 by donnacha

[from the home of CC]

1 hour ago, CM Dad said:

They need to apply for a medical visa through the care-giving facility.  It is only good for 90 days, but it can be renewed indefinitely by the facility.  No monthly income requirement or minimum bank deposit is required.  the 90-da y reports must still be done as well.

I don't think the point of the story is to find a solution...

[bkk6060]

7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Tip of the iceberg. Think of all the people that will leave, are soon leaving or have already left due to the weirdly changed and unclear immigration policies that never post and never make the news.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

And how many do you personally know who have?

Lots of "the grass is greener" threats on this site but very little to no new reports about how great things are in their new digs...

[bkk6060]

44 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

I also believe the mom’s social security or social security disability check  is probably paying 60,000 baht more or less of the moms monthly 85,000 bill.  If the mom had assets then someone has spent and depleted the mom’s assets.

 

 People are quick to blame others and tell a good story. But I don’t buy this story as a lot is missing and to blame immigration or anyone else in this situation is IMO misguided at best and opportunistic at worst. 

Exactly!

Your posting name says it all.

[from the home of CC]

4 minutes ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

Your visa says NON-IMMIGRANT.

 

This is nothing to do with immigration, which as I explained earlier, is virtually non-existent regarding Westerners emigrating to Thailand, as it simply is not possible and there are strict quotas on the dozens for Western nations.

 

I would warrant that there were a few tens of thousands of Thais that emigrated to the US last year though.

 

AMIRITE?

not sure of the numbers that went stateside but I'm certain they weren't whining about keeping 20 grand in the bank..

[IssanMichael]

5 hours ago, donnacha said:

I feel bad for the lady with Alzheimer's, but something is fishy about this story.

An American husband and wife team who ran a Web design business successful enough to be sold, and still relatively young, are unable to drum up one bank deposit of $25K which will allow their mother to stay in Thailand until she passes.

During the course of their business careers, did they not forge strong enough relationships with clients or collaborators to be able to ask around for help now that they have a real problem?

Don't they have have any family or family friends in America? Is gathering $25K really such an insurmountable challenge? 

Do they really think that living in Manila is going to be that much cheaper than Chiang Mai?

Do they understand how much harder it is to find a place to live there, and how much more expensive rent and utilities are?

Have they ever experienced the existential struggle of trying to find edible food in the Philippines?

Surely, if they had made any friends at all in during their 4 years in Thailand, someone would have pointed out that they can simply pay $600 per year for an agent to grease the wheels for them and stay right here in Chiang Mai. I mean, seriously, that is less that what their flights to Manila will cost them.

 

My guess is that their back story is bullshit and this is an attempt to salt gullible people, farang and Thai, into donating money to them. They have no intention of folding up their tents and moving their circus to Manila.

 

The thing that struck me was all you said plus the fact that 

 

5 hours ago, donnacha said:

I feel bad for the lady with Alzheimer's, but something is fishy about this story.

An American husband and wife team who ran a Web design business successful enough to be sold, and still relatively young, are unable to drum up one bank deposit of $25K which will allow their mother to stay in Thailand until she passes.

During the course of their business careers, did they not forge strong enough relationships with clients or collaborators to be able to ask around for help now that they have a real problem?

Don't they have have any family or family friends in America? Is gathering $25K really such an insurmountable challenge? 

Do they really think that living in Manila is going to be that much cheaper than Chiang Mai?

Do they understand how much harder it is to find a place to live there, and how much more expensive rent and utilities are?

Have they ever experienced the existential struggle of trying to find edible food in the Philippines?

Surely, if they had made any friends at all in during their 4 years in Thailand, someone would have pointed out that they can simply pay $600 per year for an agent to grease the wheels for them and stay right here in Chiang Mai. I mean, seriously, that is less that what their flights to Manila will cost them.

 

My guess is that their back story is bullshit and this is an attempt to salt gullible people, farang and Thai, into donating money to them. They have no intention of folding up their tents and moving their circus to Manila.

 

I agree something a bit strange here. I notice that they have only had her for about 18 months and she is in Chang Mai doesn't say where they are??? but sounds as if they are not with her!!  it would be a dam site cheaper to have Mum at home and employ a carer or two.

[zydeco]

45 minutes ago, Duck J Butters said:

While this article is sad and has compelled me to donate the 800,000 baht to this women,

Sure you did.