Correcting half-fake news: immigration

[wobalt]

I provided one figure: 40,000 foreigners on retirement visas in Pattaya alone. 
 
In the early 2000s, the number was closer to 40...
 
You also have your eyes to actually see, providing that you have been here long enough. 
 
Long lines at immigration offices or consulates are a relatively new thing. 
 
How did this happen if the number of applicants did not increase, a lot? 
 
 

Because at that time where other visa option available?
These long lines are only at the consulates in the region
Immigration offices now forces the applicants to do this and that


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[wobalt]

These requirement were there 15 years ago... they were not created last year. 
 
I had a non B visa and a work permit in the early 2000s...the paperwork and the process (5 month long) was mindboggling... but at least I didn't have to go through long lines to reach the desk of an officer. 
 
 

But requirements never had been enforced like today


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[totally thaied up]

45 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

Australia has much more heinous visa restrictions and costs.

At least my wife can get PR in Australia and I get squat here in Thailand. Last time I did a tourist visa for my wife, it took me only four hours to complete. 

[Odysseus123]

29 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

At least my wife can get PR in Australia and I get squat here in Thailand. Last time I did a tourist visa for my wife, it took me only four hours to complete. 

Yup..

 

Write the topic off to..'A Confederacy of Dunces.'

Edited June 6, 2019 by Odysseus123

[evadgib]

40 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Immigration does not get money from people with PR, so this won't happen.

How much do they make from 90 day reports...?

[jackdd]

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

How much do they make from 90 day reports...? 

More than you think

[chainarong]

Farang retirement visa 's down first quarter 8% , European  tourist numbers down first quarter 10% .

[mtls2005]

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

Many people are convinced that making bold statements are a form of proof, and if you provide facts, they simply dismiss them as inaccurate. 

You do realize that you are making bold statements with scant proof behind the shield of an avatar, or is that the sound of irony whooshing over your head? And when we dismiss your's as inaccurate you get all huffy. What's up with that?

 

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

The 40,000 retirement visas in Pattaya was front page news in the local newspapers some years ago, which is how I learned about it. 

So, finally, a bedrock figure. "Some years ago" is what? Last year? Two years ago? Five years ago?

 

An "exponential" (pretty sure you don't understand that term) linear rise would mean that figure is what, 58,564 today?  More? Less? Anyone passing away, leaving the country?

 

Just taking the 40,000 figure would equate to ~ 175 renewals each day; that seems high to me?

 

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

And since I was amazed by that number, I had it confirmed by an acquaintance of mine who works at Jomtien immigration. 

Ah, the proverbial "acquaintance", the ever-reliable source. You forgot to say they are high-ranking.

 

What figure did your acquaintance confirm? And when?

 

Understanding that if they confirmed the 40,000 figure last week, then there hasn't been an increase in "Some years".

 

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

But never mind, there are those who know better, just because they say so... 

Yes, the last argument of the loser, nevermind. Accusing non-believers of heresy, while sheepishly failing to produce even an iota of data to support one's "opinion", is not very flattering. 

[ParadiseLost]

34 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

At least my wife can get PR in Australia and I get squat here in Thailand. Last time I did a tourist visa for my wife, it took me only four hours to complete. 

Granted, but at what price? Way more than it costs you here.

 

From July Australian partner visas require a separate application from the sponsor, which will add a year to the process and cost $$$

 

My kids want me to move to Aus, the visa costs $50k and it will take 6-8 years to process...

[ParadiseLost]

2 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

Yes, the last argument of the loser, nevermind.

I thought it was whatever... ????

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, ParadiseLost said:

Granted, but at what price? Way more than it costs you here.

 

From July Australian partner visas require a separate application from the sponsor, which will add a year to the process and cost $$$

 

My kids want me to move to Aus, the visa costs $50k and it will take 6-8 years to process...

Rubbish.

 

Write the topic off to 'A confederacy of Dunces'

 

If Australia is keeping the riff raff out-never forget the immortal slogan.."Good guys in-bad guys out.." propagated by the Thai..something or another..

[totally thaied up]

6 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

but at what price? Way more than it costs you here

7K gets my wife here. Peanuts compared for what she gets in return. Spoke to immigration recently in OZ. New screening may add on 6-8 weeks. I have looked at all the paperwork and it is simple to do. Nothing hard about it at all.

[evadgib]

24 minutes ago, jackdd said:

More than you think

Offering nothing whatsoever to the thread.

[from the home of CC]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

Immigration could substantially reduce their workload by abolishing the 90 day physical appearance (mine doesn't do online) and granting PR to retired/married/employed residents after three trouble-free years in the Kingdom.

 

A further incentive would be to include a  'no drink-driving' clause to deter the many that indulge in the practice when they wouldn't dare do it at home.

a further incentive to not drinking and driving would be an automatic jail sentence followed by a life time ban..

[Thaidream]

3 hours ago, Brunolem said:

here are quite a few recriminations against the Thai immigration system in TV Forum, some being fair, some not so. 

 

Many members are complaining about increasing costs, that is not fair, because the truth is quite the opposite. 

 

I have been living here for 20 years and, as far as I remember, the fees and requirements have not changed. 

 

The 800,000 baht were there long ago, as was the 1,900 baht fee payable for most services. 

 

Members with a sharp memory will probably be able to provide more details regarding this issue, but the point is that the administrative costs for staying in Thailand are NOT constantly rising. 

 

Then, there is the new medical insurance which makes many whine, even though it is mandatory only for non OA visa. 

 

Now I don't know about you, but during my 20 years I have never applied for a non OA visa... in fact, I just discovered its existence not so long ago. 

 

Yet, I have had all kinds of visas: tourist, non B, non O, you name it... 

 

Having said that, one may wonder why the authorities consider that only non OA visa holders are susceptible to end up in an hospital??? 

 

One may also wonder why many foreigners are so reluctant about being insured, considering the risks, especially for those who go anywhere near to a road, either walking or driving or riding. 

 

Now to the main issue, the rising number of foreigners in Thailand. 

 

A member recently posted from Savannakhet, my (former) favorite consulate to apply for a visa. 

 

What was until recently a quiet place is now looking like Europe during the Syrian refugee crisis! 

 

In the early years of the previous decade (that is not so long ago), I remember visiting Pattaya immigration, soi 8 at that time, around 10 or 11 in the morning. 

 

There were one or two other foreigners inside, filling their forms on a table, then getting a number and be told to come back in the middle of the afternoon. 

 

Anticipating crowds and long lines was never on our minds. 

 

Nowadays, Jomtien immigration seems like a... refugee camp! 

 

About 5 years ago, the number of foreigners in Pattaya, staying on a retirement visa/extension, was over 40,000!!!

 

And that was only the retirement visas... 

 

I left Pattaya long ago for Sisaket where, in the early years of this decade, the immigration office was opened only one or two days a week, for lack of activity. 

 

Now, it is five days a week, with 3 or 4 officers behind their desk, and if you go in the middle of the morning, you may well end up spending a few hours waiting for your turn. 

 

While a few members are venting their frustration and thinking about leaving for better shores, many more, thousands more, are arriving daily, like a caravan of... refugees... 

 

Now, what is Thailand supposed to do about that? 

 

How would your country of origin deal with thousands upon thousands of Thai, Cambodian or Laotian people arriving every day? 

 

Just see how "easy" it is for your Thai partner to get a visa to visit Europe, not to mention the US.

 

In short, visa issues appear to multiply not because the rules and requirements are changing all the time, but because the number of applicants is rising exponentially, creating problems where they were none not so long ago... 

1.  Your claim that nothing has changed as far as  costs involved for Immigration is incorrect-  While the bottom line of 800K has not changed the  method of proof has added costs.  

 

One must keep the 800K in a Thai bank for 5 months instead of 2 and then leave 400K untouched the full 12 months.  That means instead of being able to use one's own funds to live on- one must bring in another sum to actually pay the rent; food etc.   If you use  65K as the monthly minimum that is 5 months x 65 for an additional 325K.   Looks like an increase to me.

 

In regards to the 65K each month income method- if one transfers the funds from abroad-there are fees associated with this; there are visits to update the bank book each month and there will be visits to the bank to secure bank letters and get the bank to generate a proper letter.  All in all with transfers and bank visits you can add on another $500 per year. I simply go to an ATM when I need funds and withdraw it from my bank abroad- Only charge 220 Baht.

 

2.  As far as huge numbers of people now visiting Savanakhet for a Visa- I would say this is due to the changes in the Immigration methodology in that those who are retired or married now seek  the multiple Non O instead of  going to the Immigration Office.  In addition- the appointment system at Vientienne is now cumbersome and not  user friendly.   

 

The added numbers one sees at the consulates in the regions have more to do with a crackdown on  Exempt entries; appointment systems restricting numbers and people opting for multiple entry Visas- it is not reflective of added foreigners in Thailand/

 

3  Are there more foreigners in Thailand now then ever before?  It all depends how you count.  There are definitely more Western and Asian foreigners in Thailand now than when I first arrived in 1971.

 

However, over the last 5-10 years- the numbers of Westerners-both long stay and tourists are decreasing yearly.  Reasons being  currencies depreciating; rising costs of Thailand; traffic; pollution etc.  It is obvious when one goes to the main Immigration Office at Chaeng Wattana and take note of who is in the immigration Hall.  I have done at least 30 extensions there over several decades.  

 

Even 10 years ago the number of Westerners in the Hall were 80% as opposed to other Nationalities.   It has been noticeable year after year the change in who is there- Now, I would say that Westerners amount for 20% of those there and the other 80% are Asians and Middle easterners.  In actuality- TAT figures show there is not any Western tourists in the top 10 visitors to Thailand except Russia.

 

As far as other Immigration offices- Just yesterday- I was at Jomtien to do my extension as I moved a year ago.  the Immigration Hall is small and was busy but for long term extensions- 2 ahead of me.   On other occasions when I have done 90 day reports in and out in 5-10 minutes.  

 

4.  Medical Insurance- most everyone wnts it but not everyone wants to pay almost 100K to get 400K of coverage and 40K of out patient coverage. The ratio of cost to benefit is worthless since a catastrophic illness will cost much more than 400K.

 

The solution for long stayers is to be brought into the Thai Social Security system at a reasonable monthly cost so treatment is available  at Thai Government Hospitals and Private hospitals that want to participate.  As far as quality- most Thai doctors work in the Government Hospitals as well as the Private ones.

 

5.  While there will always be a certain number of Westerners who still come to Thailand as tourists and long stayers- their numbers are in decline for all the reasons stated.  You can also include aging westerners in those declining since as they age- they will at some point expire.

 

Who is replacing declining Westerners is Chinese and Indian tourists in large numbers.  Again- they eye test-  go to Bangkok and check into any mid level Hotel and you will see large groups of Asean visitors; Chinese; Indians; Arabs etc.  You will see few Western tourists in comparison.

 

Whether Thailand is a great place to stay; visit or remain lies in the eyes of each person.  IMHO there are now some negatives compared to when I first came decades ago.  In addition, with the advent of social media and the internet- other choices and comparisons are easy.  

 

At the same time, Thailand has decided it really does not want anyone living in Thailand on tourist visas or exempt entries as evidenced by the refusal of entry at airports and the red/blue notices on passports. This along with the changes in the methodology of long stay extensions will continue to decrease the numbers of  all Westerners for the future and  many foreigners who would have in the past retired in Thailand will not because they feel the welcome mat has been pulled.

 

This is exactly what Thailand wants- decreased long stayers and increased  numbers of  short stay tourists.

 

 

 

 

[Caldera]

Isn't the reason for "half-fake news" to spread, in many cases, glaring inconsistencies between different immigration offices (or even between different desks/officials at one and the same office)?

 

What's "fake news" at Chaeng Watthana isn't necessarily "fake news" in Buriram. What's "fake news" for retirement extensions in Jomtien isn't necessarily "fake news" for marriage extensions at the very same office.

 

Oh, and what's "fake news" today might well come true tomorrow...

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Caldera
Typo

[billd766]

28 minutes ago, jackdd said:

More than you think

Well since 2009, visiting Immigration 4 times per year they only got 2,000 baht off me once.

 

I missed a 90 day report once and got fined for it. I don't blame Immigration for what definitely my own fault.

[ParadiseLost]

17 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

7K gets my wife here. Peanuts compared for what she gets in return. Spoke to immigration recently in OZ. New screening may add on 6-8 weeks. I have looked at all the paperwork and it is simple to do. Nothing hard about it at all.

The waiting period for parent visas is currently between six to 30 years. This is likely to increase with those on retiree visas now being allocated a proportion of these visas.

 

The new legislation will also negatively impact the time it will take to process the Partner Visa application, which is already in excess of 20 months. It may also be more expensive for couples to lodge a Partner Visa application under the new legislation, as there are now two applications that must be processed, in order to receive Partner Visa approval.

 

Simple eh?

[ParadiseLost]

40 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Rubbish.

Changes announced for lodging family stream visas

 

Partner Visa Changes 2019

 

The only rubbish is your reply methinks...

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, LongTang said:

 

I'm sorry, but early 2017('2 entry limit' introduction) is not something i consider many many years to say the least..

 

 

The fight against multiple border runs started long before that, initiated by Thaksin who reduced the number of days allowed to 15, thus making it very difficult to stay long term with such a system. 

 

The 15 days were maintained long after Thaksin had left power in 2006, but there was indeed a short period afterwards, during which unlimited 30 days visa runs were reinstated. 

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, wobalt said:

But requirements never had been enforced like today


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

When you get 3 visitors per day, you tend to relax, but when you get 300, you tend to be more strict... this is true everywhere... 

 

Small numbers don't raise suspicions as big numbers do... 

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

You do realize that you are making bold statements with scant proof behind the shield of an avatar, or is that the sound of irony whooshing over your head? And when we dismiss your's as inaccurate you get all huffy. What's up with that?

 

So, finally, a bedrock figure. "Some years ago" is what? Last year? Two years ago? Five years ago?

 

An "exponential" (pretty sure you don't understand that term) linear rise would mean that figure is what, 58,564 today?  More? Less? Anyone passing away, leaving the country?

 

Just taking the 40,000 figure would equate to ~ 175 renewals each day; that seems high to me?

 

Ah, the proverbial "acquaintance", the ever-reliable source. You forgot to say they are high-ranking.

 

What figure did your acquaintance confirm? And when?

 

Understanding that if they confirmed the 40,000 figure last week, then there hasn't been an increase in "Some years".

 

Yes, the last argument of the loser, nevermind. Accusing non-believers of heresy, while sheepishly failing to produce even an iota of data to support one's "opinion", is not very flattering. 

The usual intellectual/mathematician/know it all bombasting on the internet... 

 

While you reject my observations, you don't bring any contradictory informations or facts. 

 

Have you noticed a reduction of visa applicants over the years at your immigration office? 

 

Were you living here in 2000 and are you able to make comparisons between situations that you lived through, rather than read about? 

 

Bring us your experience and facts rather than pontificating and being condescendent... 

[mtls2005]

3 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

The usual intellectual/mathematician/know it all bombasting on the internet... 

Ah yes, when all is lost resort to ad hominem attacks. Predictable.

 

4 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

While you reject my observations, you don't bring any contradictory informations or facts. 

Sheesh, you're the one pontificating here. Bring it (facts), or just scurry away.

 

4 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Have you noticed a reduction of visa applicants over the years at your immigration office? 

Honestly, my observations seem meaningless. Once a year. Over the past five years, I' haven't noticed an increase, seems relatively constant, FWIW.

 

6 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Were you living here in 2000 and are you able to make comparisons between situations that you lived through, rather than read about? 

Yes, Non-Imm B, came/went every 90 days, so no contact with Imm.

 

7 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Bring us your experience and facts rather than pontificating and being condescendent... 

Again, you're the one making some dramatic claims, not me. Deflection does not suit you.

 

 

[BritManToo]

4 hours ago, evadgib said:

How much do they make from 90 day reports...?

2,000bht when you or your landlord didn't do the address reporting.

[OJAS]

5 hours ago, chainarong said:

Farang retirement visa 's down first quarter 8% , European  tourist numbers down first quarter 10% .

Source(s)?

[Orton Rd]

The OP seems quite happy with being told what to do with his own money, if he's on an extension. Now you just have to keep at least 400k tied up until you leave or die, not something to brush off as no changes

Edited June 6, 2019 by Orton Rd

[tabarin]

This is a politically correct argument. Yes the rules might been the same as they always been but EVERYONE knows it did not work that way. 
So it DID change big time in that perspective and that is what is relevant to anyone in the situation. 

And loads and loads of people? Amsterdam has nearly 40 million tourist arrivals a year as well. Please don't make me laugh about TAT, it's pathetic in numbers.
Aside of that there is no shortage of land, big country as well unlimited housing (450,000 units empty even).
Job generation is at least a 1.4 fulltime thais per permanent foreigner too, so no crying over that possible.

 

Not to mention, that in other countries, when getting stay, you also get rights. Social welfare, healthcare, security, the same treatment and prices etc. etc.

 

It is a non argument to speak about the amount of people travelling to Thailand, risk countries never had super easy access over all this time so not relevant too.
There are more Thais in UK alone already than there are permanent Farangs in Thailand as far I know, just proofs the point again.

Actually I think there is even a shortage of foreigners.
OP must be living here a really long time, he believes in what they say now.

 

The balance is that we Host more Thais in foreign countries, give more to Thais and Thailand, then they offer and give to us. 
The many times made soi dog comparison might actually not be that far from reality, wether accepting it or not.

Respect is only given as long there is fiat balance to spend or assumed to be spend, never for you as you, it is the same for most poor Thais.
Thailand can be nice as long you have riches to spend, simple as that, no need to make it more beautiful than that as it isn't.

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by tabarin

[sfokevin]

I bitch & complain about Immigration more than most but Thailand is still the best place to have dinner...

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by sfokevin

[DrJack54]

Where? Great snap.

[TaoNow]

If Dr. Jack54 really knew Thailand, he would have no trouble finding these kind of vistas.