Trump says he halted U.S. strike on Iran over possible casualties

[Kasane]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Making threats and not following up on them doesn't convey strength. Publicly discussing attack plans, the consultations related to them and last minute flip flops involved doesn't help either.

Blowing up people "conveys strength".
????????????????

 

[Morch]

55 minutes ago, Pedrogaz said:

I've been reading quite broadly on this. Something doesn't quite add up. 

How can the Iranians have photographs of drone parts if the drone was shot down in International waters? What are the US doing flying drone in, or close to, Iranian waters? Clearly a provocative act...perhaps designed to start war. If Iran were flying drone even 30 miles off the coast near New York, can anyone say with a straight face that the US would not have shot it down?

 

The Oman message is rumoured to have been for the Iranians to pick three sites for the US to bomb, which would do no damage or kill innocents, to save Trump's face. The Iranians refused to do this and said any attack would be treated as an act of war.

 

It is also said that at the presidential briefing Bolton and Pompeo were for military action.....the Pentagon was against it. Trump originally went with Bolton/Pompeo's advice and tweeted his 'big mistake' tweet. Someone got to Trump before the attack took place and then he changed his mind.  

 

There was also a P8 Poseidon aircraft with 35 people on board 'accompanying' the drone, which the Iranians said didn't shoot down because it would involve loss of life and maybe start a war. The US after confirmed the P8 being in the vicinity. Neither party said if it entered Iranian waters.

 

This is like the boy who cried wolf. The US has been found out lying so many times with false flags and the like, it has become difficult for allies in private to support the US, although they still talk the talk on the TV. One expects that the 'coalition' might be a bit thin on the ground consisting of Israel, Saudi and the Emirates.

 

Despite the lead of NATO being such a warmonger, we have heard little or nothing from them. What is going on there? Surely shooting down the drone should active Clause 5 in the treaty.

 

 

 

If the broad reading claimed above relied on the sort of sources you often link, not too surprising.

 

The Iranian could have reached the debris first, whether in international waters or not. No mystery there, and not really indicative of anything. Where debris was collected, where the drone crashed, where it was intercepted, and where it was when the missile was launched - could all be different locations.

 

Flying the drone in international airspace would be legit, if provocative. Shooting it down in international airspace (if that's indeed what happened) is provocative and illegitimate. If the USA wished to create a pretext for war it wouldn't use it's top of the line drone, any other would do. When Iran flies a drone off the New York coast and the USA intercepts it - come back and discuss. As a reference, though, Russia surveillance vessels and aircraft do this without being harmed.

 

And just in case you missed it, US forces in the region are there by agreement with other neighboring countries, which have credible reasons to consider Iran a threat. If the Iranians were to deploy, say, to Cuba, and if this was some years back, you might have had a better argument.

 

I'm not aware that the "Oman message" contained the bit alluded. Could you reference this rumor with any credible source?

 

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Kasane said:

An American Boeing P-8 airplane with 35 people on board entered Iranian airspace. Aerospace Force head Amir Ali Hajzadeh says Iran could have shot the plane down, but chose not to.

While on the one hand, it is odd to think that the US and Iran are trying to spread a message of reconciliation by pointing out how many people they could’ve killed but didn’t. Still, this is a much preferable message to the mounting tensions and fears of confrontation coming ahead of that. 

 

More correctly - Iran claimed it entered its airspace. Presenting it as fact is a choice.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, BestB said:

But does show mercy and willingness to deescalate . And that may have been the goal or part of the play 

 

If so, it was done very clumsily.

[neeray]

Just now, Morch said:

 

If so, it was done very clumsily.

This is all Trump theatrics. We've had two years + to learn his game-playing.

[spidermike007]

55 minutes ago, heybruce said:

The drone was shot down in the air, not the water.  The US says it was in international airspace, Iran says it entered Iranian airspace.  At this point I don't know how either can be proven or disproven.

 

The drone was almost certainly a surveillance drone spying on Iran and getting as close to the country as possible.  Annoying but legal it it stays in international airspace.  It was a high altitude drone that fell a great distance through upper atmosphere winds, so the location of the debris would give a poor indication of where the drone was at the time it was hit.  If I remember correctly, the jet-stream primarily blows from west to east, which could have blown parts in the air west of Iranian airspace into their airspace before hitting the ocean.

There is a high likelihood the US deliberately sent the drone into Iranian airspace, hoping it got shot down. Part of the pre-amble to war. 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Kasane said:

Blowing up people "conveys strength".
????????????????

 

 

Nothing in my post about blowing up people conveying strength.

 

But since you raised the issue - in some situations, and some parts of the world, it does.

 

Making hollow threats, on the other hand - not so much.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, spidermike007 said:

There is a high likelihood the US deliberately sent the drone into Iranian airspace, hoping it got shot down. Part of the pre-amble to war. 

 

No. There's you claiming that there's a "high likelihood".

If the USA wanted to do that, any regular, expendable drone could have been used.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by Morch

[stevenl]

40 minutes ago, BestB said:

But does show mercy and willingness to deescalate . And that may have been the goal or part of the play 

To deescalate all he has to do is reinstate the previous agreement with Iran. Can't do that though, his new friends, with whom Iran is vying for being the top dog in the ME, and Israel won't like that.

Edited June 22, 2019 by stevenl

[Tug]

12 minutes ago, BestB said:

But does show mercy and willingness to deescalate . And that may have been the goal or part of the play 

More  like holey cow they called my bluff and my presidency will go down in history as breaking a treaty and starting a major war were most country’s get their energy yeiks (idiot)

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, stevenl said:

To deescalate all he has to do is reinstate the previous agreement with Iran. Can't do that though, his new friends, with whom Iran is vying for being the big dog in the ME, and Israel won't like that.

 

I doubt Saudi Arabia and Israel's interests feature as highly as Trump's own ego and public image when it comes to his decision making.

[potless]

50 minutes ago, Kasane said:

An American Boeing P-8 airplane with 35 people on board entered Iranian airspace. Aerospace Force head Amir Ali Hajzadeh says Iran could have shot the plane down, but chose not to.

How very noble of the Iranians.

[OneMoreFarang]

I wonder which nationality these possible 150 dead people would have.

Would Trump care about 150 dead Iranians? I have my doubt.

But if maybe 2 American pilots could die, additionally to 148 Iranian, now that might concern the Donald.

 

I think someone should strap him under a drone for 24 hours so that he can oversee the situation directly. And then fly that remote controlled drone maybe 100m away from the Iranian border. Maybe that will give Trump time to learn - but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Toosetinmyways]

Trump picked a fight with a 72 year old Scottish female and lost. You really think he will take on bloodthirsty Mullahs who have sworn death to all Americans

Another problem is he has alienated most of Americas ally's. Can't see the Germans or French etc backing him up militarily or politically. Of course the Brits will as they will need all the friends they can get soon Perhaps the plan is to let the Saudis fight the war. America does not even have a UN ambassador.

Was the 150 casualty estimate Iranians or Americans?

[BestB]

55 minutes ago, stevenl said:

To deescalate all he has to do is reinstate the previous agreement with Iran. Can't do that though, his new friends, with whom Iran is vying for being the top dog in the ME, and Israel won't like that.

That is not going to happen.  Having talks and possibly reinstating is possible with some amendments but seeing as Iran not willing to talk, chances of this are slim to none . 

 

Iran is hardly a positive influence in the region so hardly surprising neighbors do not want Iran anywhere near their borders

[JHolmesJr]

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

He didn't stop a war, he held back on starting one.  At least for now.

 

He also held back in a manner that suggests he's not fully in control of things in his administration.  That's not encouraging.

 

Thank you CNN! No one listens to that drivel any more.

[stevenl]

35 minutes ago, BestB said:

That is not going to happen.  Having talks and possibly reinstating is possible with some amendments but seeing as Iran not willing to talk, chances of this are slim to none . 

 

Iran is hardly a positive influence in the region so hardly surprising neighbors do not want Iran anywhere near their borders

Of course Iran is not willing to talk. There was an agreement Iran adhered to, but it was suddenly and one-sided cancelled. Why would they go back to the negotiating table when there already is a very workable agreement.

 

Don't know about the 'hardly a positive influence in the region', guess that depends on your point of view. Iran is doing the same as Israel and SA are doing: trying to expend their sphere of influence. So no surprise they meet eachother on occasion. Doesn't make one better than the other.

[Trouble]

He's damned if he does and damned it he doesn't. Go figure.

[simple1]

3 minutes ago, Trouble said:

He's damned if he does and damned it he doesn't. Go figure.

trump's mouthing off is his own worst enemy

[zydeco]

Well, we all know who the Biggest Loser will be at next week's G-20 meeting.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, CaptRon2 said:

More Tall Tales from Tug, please provide a link to the treaty you are referring to, because as far as I know there is no Iran Nuclear Treaty, and if you do not know the difference in a treaty and a “Deal” you should educate yourself before spreading your hate filled misinformation, I find it hard to accept someone who can not even use spellcheck or do a little fact checking should be trying to explain what motivates The President’s foreign policy decisions, it isn’t an easy task to correct eight years of mistakes made during the Obama administration but President Trump is making pretty good progress.

Yes. he's about to okay the sale of technology to Saudi Arabia that can make enriched nuclear fuel.  What a comforting thought it is to give MBS access to that.

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, Trouble said:

He's damned if he does and damned it he doesn't. Go figure.

That's because he created the damned situation.

[user68677878]

There is no capital in the bank in terms of  Trumps global credibility on this or any other matter.

The real question people are asking globally is what are Trump’s  policies on anything??????

This despite his famous claim "You know, I’m, like, a smart person.” Uh huh.

Why does he know so little? Because he doesn’t read books or even long articles. “I never have,” he proudly told a reporter last year. “I’m always busy doing a lot.” As president, Trump’s intelligence (sic) briefings have been dumbed down, to just pictorials because he can’t be bothered to read a lot of words. Or perhaps he just cant read?? He’d rather just play golf- badly.

 

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, owl sees all said:

So the bottom line is that the Don saved us from WW3. Anyone object to a Nobel Peace award? I see one on the horizon.

 

Keep up the good work Donald.

Trump saved us from WW3 by not starting it?  By that standard doesn't every US President since Truman deserve a Nobel Peace award?

[BestB]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

Of course Iran is not willing to talk. There was an agreement Iran adhered to, but it was suddenly and one-sided cancelled. Why would they go back to the negotiating table when there already is a very workable agreement.

 

Don't know about the 'hardly a positive influence in the region', guess that depends on your point of view. Iran is doing the same as Israel and SA are doing: trying to expend their sphere of influence. So no surprise they meet eachother on occasion. Doesn't make one better than the other.

Yes deals get broken, such as life, refusing to renegotiate or even to speak does not do them any favors. They are in no position of bargaining power, even though they think so.

 

No Israel and SA do not go into neighboring countries, establish their proxy parties and then try to overrun that country.

 

Lebanon is a perfect example of that.

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, BestB said:

Yes deals get broken, such as life, refusing to renegotiate or even to speak does not do them any favors. They are in no position of bargaining power, even though they think so.

 

No Israel and SA do not go into neighboring countries, establish their proxy parties and then try to overrun that country.

 

Lebanon is a perfect example of that.

"No Israel and SA do not go into neighboring countries, establish their proxy parties and then try to overrun that country."

 

Huh, what world are you living in?

[BestB]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

"No Israel and SA do not go into neighboring countries, establish their proxy parties and then try to overrun that country."

 

Huh, what world are you living in?

Do tell which country Israel went into?established proxy party and has taken over? Fire away

[JHolmesJr]

Trump is not a warmonger like the Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice cabal.

 

He's a businessman so his focus is on economic prosperity.

 

Democrats must be the most confused people right now.

 

First they say he'll get us into a war with Iran, now they seem disappointed that

he showed restraint. He's creating them on every front and they don't know how to deal

with him. #lovinit

[simple1]

6 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

now they seem disappointed that he showed restraint

Better try another tact. trump has just warned Iran of 'obliteration'

[bristolboy]

Just now, JHolmesJr said:

Trump is not a warmonger like the Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice cabal.

 

He's a businessman so his focus is on economic prosperity.

 

Democrats must be the most confused people right now.

 

First they say he'll get us into a war with Iran, now they seem disappointed that

he showed restraint. He's creating them on every front and they don't know how to deal

with him. #lovinit

Not faulting him for showing restraint. Faulting him for creating a situation where he decided to show it. For now.