Thai Elite Visa and the Future

[Thomas72]

I've been in Thailand for 4 years. I am now considering purchasing an Elite Visa. I've heard stories that there was a similar program in place (before the Elite Visa). That program was cancelled, and lots of expats lost lots of money.

 

Is there any truth to this story? Was there a previous premium visa program that was cancelled?

 

Also, as a secondary question, how confident are you that if you buy a 20 year visa for 1 million baht, you'll actually get what is promised? It seems like a rather large risk to me. I'm not opposed to spending the money, but there seems to be no guarantees or protections if I buy it. 

 

Thanks for your advice.

[ThomasThBKK]

No the visa was never cancelled and old elite lifetime visas are still active.

They had some stupid fights in the gov and suspended new signups for a while, it was also unprofitable etc.

Here's the story: 

 

 

 

Lots of negativity and bs stories about elite, but fact is it's 16 years old and the first visas are still working fine.

You won't get any visa guarantee anywhere in the world, even permanent residencies can be revoked - it's how it is.

 

I personally think they should just sell PR and passports for cash like most other countries but they don't like money.

 

1 mio THB wasn't worth much in 2003 and everyone who bought then made a great deal imo.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[BestB]

Nobody lost any money and nothing was cancelled per say.

 

Before 1 million bought you lifetime elite visa, then it was changed to 1 million for 20 years or 500 000 for 5

 

[Thomas72]

Thanks for the background.

 

You know how bar stories are. I'm sitting in a bar.. asking questions about the Elite Visa... and someone pipes up about the past program being cancelled.

 

I feel a bit more confident now about it.

[BlackSwan]

Hi Thomas I sent you a PM if you check your inbox 

[dcnx]

Prior to this current government I would have trusted it. Now, and after all the changes happening with immigration policy, I wouldn’t gamble 20 years unless I had money to gamble. 

 

The 20 is the better deal but comes with the most risk. 5 years is the worst deal by far but comes with the least risk.

 

What happened in the past is irrelevant now. Look at what’s happening now.

[HampiK]

5 minutes ago, dcnx said:

Prior to this current government I would have trusted it. Now, and after all the changes happening with immigration policy, I wouldn’t gamble 20 years unless I had money to gamble. 

 

The 20 is the better deal but comes with the most risk. 5 years is the worst deal by far but comes with the least risk.

 

What happened in the past is irrelevant now. Look at what’s happening now.

Till now I only saw 1 change, that you have to let 400'000 baht stay in the bank when you go the 800K route for retirement visa!

I am not aware of any other change. And even this is not a real big change. The other part is a change of 3 embassies (1 embassy already gone back to the old way again)!

[Caldera]

While trust certainly is a valid concern, I think - seeing the trajectory Thailand has been on - the more worrying question is if it will still be a desirable place to live, for a foreigner, five or even 20 years from now. I have my doubts.

[Toany]

1 hour ago, HampiK said:

Till now I only saw 1 change, that you have to let 400'000 baht stay in the bank when you go the 800K route for retirement visa!

I am not aware of any other change. And even this is not a real big change. The other part is a change of 3 embassies (1 embassy already gone back to the old way again)!

The TM30 can be a big change and big inconviene if your immigration officer applies it.  I don't think the Thai Elite programe means you avoid this.  But it should affect you if you do not go to immigration. 

[fforest1]

I think the longer the Junta stays in power the more unstable footing farangs will have in Thailand,including visas....They are a volatile bunch any thing could happen...

[NCC1701A]

i think they are going to arrest us all tonight.

 

i can hear the army trucks now.

[gk10002000]

4 hours ago, BestB said:

Nobody lost any money and nothing was cancelled per say.

 

Before 1 million bought you lifetime elite visa, then it was changed to 1 million for 20 years or 500 000 for 5

 

And there is an option for 800K for 10 years

[somtumwrong]

Lucky the Thai embassy in my country (Nordics) still issues Non-O multiple, otherwise would need to buy the Elite. And here they don't ask for any financial proof whatsoever.

[looking for LIFE insurance]

I am on my 4th, 5 year visa.  This one expires 2023.  I bought the original TE Visa for 1M BHT.  If you recall the BHT was in the high 40's, perhaps low 50's.  I really don't recall.  My Visa is good for life, unlike the 20 year 2M BHT option available now.  So it was roughly $25,000 USD back then. 

What risk are you concerned about?  They almost went out of business 4 times, they went through about 15 executives to run the program.  The problem they faced is they would have to refund all of us (original buyers) + interest + give us a viable visa.  And of course, lose massive amounts of face even though this was Thaksin's baby.

The people in charge of immigration are currently walking personality disorders, with absolutely no idea what a viable common sense , stable immigration policy looks like if it blew them.

How long do you plan to live here?

How many hoops do you want to jump through to stay here?

How many documents do you want to photocopy only to learn you missed a coma, signed in black ink vs blue ink?

How many times do you want to deal with these moron IO's?

I can assure you, they are not going out of business.  They will not move the goal post with this visa.

Currently I spend +/- 35 minutes in CW doing my 90 days + visa extension.

 

I'm not suggesting you purchase one becouse I did. 

I just choose to minimize my exposure to this cluster <deleted> they call immigration policy.

Edited July 2, 2019 by blackcab
Font size reduced

[CygnusX1]

2 hours ago, looking for LIFE insurance said:

unlike the 20 year 2M BHT option available now.  

Should clarify that the 20 year 2m baht visa’s only advantage over the 20 year 1m baht visa is that it includes a few extras such as limousine transfers. I saw a pie chart somewhere on elite visa stats, and not surprisingly, almost nobody was buying the 2m baht version. Obviously just about everyone who buys one does so for the sole purpose of avoiding hassles with immigration.

[arithai12]

About spending 1M baht to avoid hassles with immigration: exactly what hassles? I believe Elite holders are still subject to TM30 & 90 days reports like every one else. Am I wrong? btw they can now be done online in many cases.

 

About changing rules: frankly if you are a 800k retiree I haven't seen anything but improvements in the last couple of years, things are faster every year. I am assuming that people with 1 million to spare can leave the 800k untouched and that one qualifies for retirement being over 50, which many are/will be if they choose a 20 year TE option.

 

Any government can always decide to make things harder, in principle even to modify TE validity and certainly to change the 800k rule or similar. But if things really get nasty, perhaps it would be a good idea to simply leave. On the other hand, investing 1M as lost expense also means that you are somehow bound to stay/visit frequently here for 20 years even if you don't like it that much anymore. It's all speculation, no one can see what Thailand (or the world) will be like in 10 or 20 years.

 

Bottom line: my personal opinion is that if you are over or at least approaching 50 years of age, the yearly retirement route is preferable. But I fully respect that others may think differently or consider 28,800 Eur a negligible amount, good for them.

[lkv]

23 minutes ago, arithai12 said:

But I fully respect that others may think differently or consider 28,800 Eur a negligible amount, good for them.

Nah, nobody likes to throw away money. The richest in particular. Otherwise they would not be rich.

 

If you found 28,800 euro on the street, would you take it?

 

The demographic of Elite is made out of people that, because having solid ties to Thailand, i.e. family kids some invested in houses, cars, etc, they did not want to lose all that or it was becoming too stressful that enough was enough.

 

Only one member of this forum publicly stated he is doing it for Thai tax residency, which I do understand. There are advantages in the current tax laws regarding foreign income brought into Thailand next year (tax free), so he does save money, but who knows what the tax laws will look like in 5 years?

 

But otherwise, most did not happily spend that money. Nobody does, just to be allowed to breathe Thai air.

 

As others have pointed, things could take a turn in the next 5-10-15 years, that one may not want to live here, Elite visa or not.

Edited July 2, 2019 by lkv

[dcnx]

8 hours ago, HampiK said:

Till now I only saw 1 change, that you have to let 400'000 baht stay in the bank when you go the 800K route for retirement visa!

I am not aware of any other change. And even this is not a real big change. The other part is a change of 3 embassies (1 embassy already gone back to the old way again)!

For your visa perhaps. There have been quite a bit of changes, from actual visa changes (various visas) to Embassy policy changes to immigration foreigner round ups to even the Elite Visa itself now unable to offer their services to people with even a short overstay.

 

Now today in the news you have immigration police and the army roaming the parking lot, taxi drop off, and airport departures looking to nab foreigners on overstay before they get the chance to pay their overstay fine.

 

Times are changing. Not for the better. 

[lkv]

30 minutes ago, dcnx said:

 

Times are changing. Not for the better. 

And their propaganda obviously is: "Times are changing for the better".

 

They will say "it's only normal, they are doing the right thing cleaning the country, if you are not on overstay it should not affect you". "So what if they do a little check here and there at the airport". On the street. In your house. At your condo lobby. 

 

Aliens, prepare the TM30's for inspection, it's a matter of national security!

 

And bit by bit, we see more and more abuse and harrasement versus foreigners from the current "administration".

Edited July 2, 2019 by lkv

[chainarong]

9 hours ago, Caldera said:

While trust certainly is a valid concern, I think - seeing the trajectory Thailand has been on - the more worrying question is if it will still be a desirable place to live, for a foreigner, five or even 20 years from now. I have my doubts.

Unless there is a mighty big U turn in Thailand, Cambodia or Nam are the best options already in the area.

[HampiK]

9 hours ago, Toany said:

The TM30 can be a big change and big inconviene if your immigration officer applies it.  I don't think the Thai Elite programe means you avoid this.  But it should affect you if you do not go to immigration. 

Yes they are becoming less convenient. BUT to be honest this rules are there already. So they not changed the law, they only now enforcing it more strict. I think if you ask some retiree who are here longer, you will also hear stories, that it's now more easy and faster! 

And many things is available online to do (90 Day, TM30) for the people it's not working there is still the postal way. So still no big deal!

 

But I agree that this are inconvenient. And I really hope that the 90 day report will fallen at some time and TM30 only should be necessary once as long you not change your address! Let's see what the future brings. It could become better or worse.

 

To be honest all the people complaining about the rules and move to another Asien country, because they say the visa rules are more clear and stable... hmmmm clear now.. but we also don't know what will happen in 5 years. Nobody can predict the future.

[lkv]

8 minutes ago, HampiK said:

So they not changed the law, they only now enforcing it more strict.

Yeah, I keep hearing this. How about removing it with immediate effect, if necessary by use of Article 44. No?

 

But that's not what's being desired. 

 

This is what really happened. On one of their private meetings, Xi Jinping told Uncle P this:

 

"P, you should learn from us. The only way communism can survive in the 21st century is by suppresion of dissidents, heavy tracking of our citizens, digital internet gateway and track track. Also, foreigners must be heavily regulated. They represent a threat to our values. Democracy means they could teach our peasants that they have a voice, then they rise and they want human rights. Look at our headaches with Hong Kong and Taiwan now."

 

Uncle P, returning back to Thailand from his trip, realising that the Thai society is built under the sakhdina model, understood that China's methods of mantaining control might ensure the peace and prosperity of Thailand for the next 20 years. So he designed a model to move the country forward.

 

Farang is not part of the model.

 

This is in short why he took TM30 out of the archives.

 

[MRToMRT]

7 hours ago, looking for LIFE insurance said:

......even though this was Thaksin's baby.

Good point, much as I don't like the man maybe (?) that was the last time the Gov did anything positive and forward thinking for attracting expats and making immigration a little simpler. 

 

If I was under 50 and planning to stay long term I would, personally, get one.

[simon43]

As holder of a 5-year Elite visa that is soon to expire, I'm not renewing it.  For me, with so many uncertainties in this country, (both concerning visa/foreigner reporting and the general political instability), Thailand no longer offers a stable future and I'm not prepared to risk 500,000 baht. 

 

My departure from Thailand to live in a neighbouring country should be completed before my Elite visa expires in about 2 months from now.

[ThomasThBKK]

 

12 hours ago, arithai12 said:

About spending 1M baht to avoid hassles with immigration: exactly what hassles? I believe Elite holders are still subject to TM30 & 90 days reports like every one else. Am I wrong? btw they can now be done online in many cases.

 

About changing rules: frankly if you are a 800k retiree I haven't seen anything but improvements in the last couple of years, things are faster every year. I am assuming that people with 1 million to spare can leave the 800k untouched and that one qualifies for retirement being over 50, which many are/will be if they choose a 20 year TE option.

 

Any government can always decide to make things harder, in principle even to modify TE validity and certainly to change the 800k rule or similar. But if things really get nasty, perhaps it would be a good idea to simply leave. On the other hand, investing 1M as lost expense also means that you are somehow bound to stay/visit frequently here for 20 years even if you don't like it that much anymore. It's all speculation, no one can see what Thailand (or the world) will be like in 10 or 20 years.

 

Bottom line: my personal opinion is that if you are over or at least approaching 50 years of age, the yearly retirement route is preferable. But I fully respect that others may think differently or consider 28,800 Eur a negligible amount, good for them.

 

There's simply no VISA for most of us on an Elite except this one.

 

I am 35 - 15 years away from Retirement Visa options.

I am single, will never marry, especially not for just a visa.

I don't work and don't plan to ever work in this country.

The investment visas here are a big JOKE. The investment smartvisa is like 10 mio THB for 4 years LOL.

 

I do have assets here and generally i do like Thailand WAY more than any of the sourrounding countries.

 

I work outside and the territorial Tax system is a HUGE gain for me. All this income would be FULLY taxed in germany and most other countries.

in CAMBODIA GET FULLY TAXED: https://www.movetocambodia.com/working-in-cambodia/taxes/

in VIETNAM YOU GET ALSO TAXED ON WORLDWIDE INCOME: https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/asean-business/at-a-glance-taxes-in-vietnam

LAOS HAS NO DEFINITION OF A TAX RESIDENT but i need to be a tax resident SOMEHWERE or EUROPE will annoy the shit out of me.

If you want to save money  on taxes at least do it legal, everything else is not an option for me.

 

 

12 hours ago, lkv said:

 

Only one member of this forum publicly stated he is doing it for Thai tax residency, which I do understand. There are advantages in the current tax laws regarding foreign income brought into Thailand next year (tax free), so he does save money, but who knows what the tax laws will look like in 5 years?

Now you have another one, i know dozens others too.

 

8 hours ago, chainarong said:

Unless there is a mighty big U turn in Thailand, Cambodia or Nam are the best options already in the area.

Are they? None of them have an longterm visa options for under 50 year old either that are not shady business visas or involve tmoney. 

Cambodia and Vietnam have a horrible tax regimes.

And more importantly, even if they are now for someone - will they be in 5 years still? 

[simon43]

LAOS HAS NO DEFINITION OF A TAX RESIDENT but i need to be a tax resident SOMEHWERE or EUROPE will annoy the shit out of me.

 

LoL, this was the problem I encountered recently when inquiring about moving back to live either in the EU or Andorra.  Having lived in Myanmar for the past 4 years or so and in Laos for the year before that, I had no Tax Identification Number from those countries and no fiscal record.  The EU banks couldn't figure out how someone could be legally 'off the tax records' in 2019.

 

Having had a short break in Thailand, I've decided to return to Laos ????

[lkv]

1 hour ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Now you have another one, i know dozens others too.

I was actually referring to you, just did not want to tag you. ????

[Traubert]

9 hours ago, lkv said:

This is what really happened. On one of their private meetings, Xi Jinping told Uncle P this:

 

"P, you should learn from us. The only way communism can survive in the 21st century is by suppresion of dissidents, heavy tracking of our citizens, digital internet gateway and track track. Also, foreigners must be heavily regulated. They represent a threat to our values. Democracy means they could teach our peasants that they have a voice, then they rise and they want human rights. Look at our headaches with Hong Kong and Taiwan now."

This is in short why he took TM30 out of the archives.

 

Except that lao wei (farangs) aren't heavily regulated in China.

 

I register my address when I return from abroad once. No TM30 nonsense if I travel in China, no 90 day reports. 3 year resi permit (ME) for CNY800 (3690Bht), plus CNY333 (1550Bht) for a very thorough medical, which I would do anyway as a matter of health. No medical, I can only have one year.

 

Need a new conspiracy theory mate. That one is rubbish. I haven't seen the inside of an immigration office in almost three years. Plus when I go in August I know exactly what to take and I'll get what I ask for. The only money involved is the fees, no financial requirements at all.

 

Plus they smile a lot.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Traubert
Addition

[lkv]

36 minutes ago, Traubert said:

Except that lao wei (farangs) aren't heavily regulated in China.

 

I register my address when I return from abroad once. No TM30 nonsense if I travel in China, no 90 day reports. 3 year resi permit (ME) for CNY800 (3690Bht), plus CNY333 (1550Bht) for a very thorough medical, which I would do anyway as a matter of health. No medical, I can only have one year.

 

Need a new conspiracy theory mate. That one is rubbish. I haven't seen the inside of an immigration office in almost three years. Plus when I go in August I know exactly what to take and I'll get what I ask for. The only money involved is the fees, no financial requirements at all.

 

Plus they smile a lot.

So to translate, they copied the Chinese system and added a few adjustments, better adapted to Thai realities, such as TM30 in country and 90 days reporting.

 

Decided the fees should be a little higher, because Thailand is a bit special.

 

The repeated short extensions one has to make is also a money scheme, designed to generate income. I mean, why charge every 3 years when you can charge every year or every month.

 

Surely one can see why the Thai system is more profitable. It's an improved version.

 

(End of sarcasm)

 

Would not be the first time they copy something and twist it, a prime example is the O-X visa, which is a bad copy of MM2H.

 

Nevertheless, it does not surprise me China has lighter requirements at lower cost. These people in Thailand have gone mental with their greed. And yes, they don't smile anymore.

 

Sarcasm aside, I do want to travel to China, as communist as it may be, just not sure about long term options for digital nomads.

Edited July 3, 2019 by lkv

[simon43]

And yes, they don't smile anymore.

 

That's true - I exited Nong Khai with a surly Thai immigration guy, went over the bridge and was met by smiling Lao immigration officers who had a great time taking the p**s out of my Lao pronunciation ????