changing face of farang teachers

[jaffas21]

So what does anyone think of the changing face of farangs teaching english in Thailand. Recently we have seen laws where backpackers can no longer just leave if they can't hack it after a month, they need to go through a complex process of resigning getting their permits cancelled and everything. So surely this will put people off or will they simply go for a four month style try it out agency (i won't mention names). If it is putting them off it explains what im seeing a lot off on job adverts these days.

 

The rise of the europeans, it doesn't matter on your language skills (or accent) just if your face is pale, of course the accent matters when they hear how someone from some countries speak, but as long as the parents never do, is fine, unless of course the kids complain.

 

The shortage of native speakers on the ground outside of bangkok and chiangmai is clear for anyone seeing these new trends happening, so will thailand keep embracing these non natives or what ..what does anyone see happening in the future, a bigger shortage of backpackers can only make the problem larger.

 

Then you have the current bills going through the filipino parliament to raise the salary for government teachers to 40,000 pesos, if this happens there will be an exodus of filipino teachers all back to the phillipines, i've noticed an attempt by the thais to raise their salaries to 25,000 baht for a select group but this wouldnt be enough as life is generally cheaper over there anyway. Would this suddenly mean more jobs for more farangs.

 

What do you think?

[expatfromwyoming]

Teaching English in Thailands teacher-centered education system revolves around students copying ‘information'.  When the students are tested they are tested on what they can remember, not what they know or whether they can pronounce words. How can you teach a language to people who are only able to copy words without thinking and have no idea of how words are pronounced. 

Is it any wonder Thai students rank lowly in English proficiency and are the laughing stock of ASEAN. 

[jaffas21]

this whole situation is caused by a recent shortage of actual native speakers in Thailand is this linked to the reduction in tourist numbers, fingerprinting at the border, inability to just leave if you want to ? without going to labour immigration etc. 

 

Thai students are the laughing stock because their parents pay money for their education so arent happy unless their kids pass, thus when they always pass they become complacent and lazy. Contrast that with china where every 5 year old isnt happy unless they get 95% and they can fail, there you have your answer to the problem with thai students.

 

However this post is about shortages and soon to be more shortages in staff levels

[Briggsy]

1 hour ago, jaffas21 said:

changing face of farangs teaching english

You have used this phrase to introduce both your posts. It is carefully slipped in to influence the reader. Yet you have not spelled out what you believe the difference is between the past and the present. 

 

Could you clearly state what you think the change or changes are?

[puchooay]

The OP clearly has no clue what he is talking about.

 

Anyone can leave a position after a month. At that point the teacher will not have received a work permit, will be lucky to have had a contract signed and will likely still be waiting for the paper work to pop over to Laos to obtain a Non B visa.

 

There are a plethora of native speakers out side of BKK and CM. Only last night I was in a restaurant in a smallish provincial capital. A large table of 20 or so teachers all from USA,UK and AUS.

 

As for non native speakers, it does matter about your language skills as all non native English speakers need a TOIEC to get permission to teach from the teachers' council and to get a work permit.

 

The only real change is the turnover of the native speakers. Whereas it used to be easy to find a teacher that had been teaching here for many years, now it is less so as the teachers' council will only allow 2 or 3 waivers.

 

It's a shame really. For a teacher to be told after 6 years that he is no longer able to do the job that he has been doing, and likely doing well as he is still there, because he does not have the right piece of paper impacts on the students.

[allane]

And I remember seeing a farang on one of the discussion boards looking for someone to "higher" him to work as an English teacher. and another one who said "I wanna job...", and stated that it was perfectly fine to say that, after I took exception to it.

[Scott]

Troll post removed.  

 

[Rhys]

The 60-65 retirement issue creates some challenges.  Some Westerner would like to stay on and teach part-time, but that is not to be. Work permit visa and so on play into hiring policies.

 

With the exception of the motivated students, many are in college for socialization into their work life and of course, how to text and use their cell phones.

 

PI teachers, well bless them, as far as the Africa Teacher, sadly many scam their way creating issues for the legit English instructor...

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Rhys

[Number 6]

On 7/6/2019 at 12:04 PM, puchooay said:

The OP clearly has no clue what he is talking about.

 

Anyone can leave a position after a month. At that point the teacher will not have received a work permit, will be lucky to have had a contract signed and will likely still be waiting for the paper work to pop over to Laos to obtain a Non B visa.

 

There are a plethora of native speakers out side of BKK and CM. Only last night I was in a restaurant in a smallish provincial capital. A large table of 20 or so teachers all from USA,UK and AUS.

 

As for non native speakers, it does matter about your language skills as all non native English speakers need a TOIEC to get permission to teach from the teachers' council and to get a work permit.

 

The only real change is the turnover of the native speakers. Whereas it used to be easy to find a teacher that had been teaching here for many years, now it is less so as the teachers' council will only allow 2 or 3 waivers.

 

It's a shame really. For a teacher to be told after 6 years that he is no longer able to do the job that he has been doing, and likely doing well as he is still there, because he does not have the right piece of paper impacts on the students.

It's very interesting how we all have such different experiences. I've worked at half dozen schools all with a contract signed before the day I stepped into the classroom. Absolutely. Work permits were produced in as little as three weeks and at most under 90 days. There still may be plenty of westerners to fill spots, but it's quite obvious that if they're not very good at teaching or perhaps much of anything else otherwise they wouldn't be in the sticks working in some of the poorest schools in Thailand often without aircon and all sorts of other perks and amenities. NNES must take the toeic but I'd heard for schools upcountry any score will do. Teachers council will allow four and in rare instances five waivers. Which brings me to my last point. The teacher that was put on the street after six years couldn't be troubled do do any professional development and did not receive a full license after this time. S/he failed themselves don't blame the school. The TCT shouldn't be blamed either there are a few thousand farang with full licenses now. Your pal didn't care enough about his job or his students.  You labor under a number of misperceptions. Maybe instead of all those teachers being out and about they could be bettering themselves. My six years of experience has been hard won, but sometimes I even surprise myself at the opportunities I find myself in. I can't speak to being over 60 but being nearly 60 has absolutely posed no issues on being hired. Further, despite having only a BA and no tefl I've been looked at by some very good universities and some mid tier internationals as well. I just see a lack of ambition. Further, I don't see Filipinos as competition, not in the least.

 

There are growing opportunities for Filipinos because they are willing to accept local teaching wages despite having essentially the same professional expenses as westerners. That's personal choice. But they cannot ride on my back. Just because I'm making X means they deserve Y. I hear a lot of Filipino whinging about Caucasians and wages but they continue to work for poor salaries whereas I've walked away from jobs paying 45+ and 50+. It has been my long standing opinion that it costs 27.5k at a minimum to exist in Thailand. That excludes tickets home, holidays, girlfriends, medical dental, savings. I spend about 22k a month but that's just the monthly allowance. In conclusion, I disagree with most of what you've stated.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Number 6

[lemonjelly]

Lot of white South Africans turning up, some fairly easy to understand, others with a heavy Afrikaans accent almost impossible to, and yeah, the quota on teaching license waivers seems to be yet another badly thought out and pointless exercise in bureaucracy that is forcing  some of the experienced teachers out of Thailand.

[puchooay]

1 hour ago, Number 6 said:

It's very interesting how we all have such different experiences. I've worked at half dozen schools all with a contract signed before the day I stepped into the classroom. Absolutely. Work permits were produced in as little as three weeks and at most under 90 days. There still may be plenty of westerners to fill spots, but it's quite obvious that if they're not very good at teaching or perhaps much of anything else otherwise they wouldn't be in the sticks working in some of the poorest schools in Thailand often without aircon and all sorts of other perks and amenities. NNES must take the toeic but I'd heard for schools upcountry any score will do. Teachers council will allow four and in rare instances five waivers. Which brings me to my last point. The teacher that was put on the street after six years couldn't be troubled do do any professional development and did not receive a full license after this time. S/he failed themselves don't blame the school. The TCT shouldn't be blamed either there are a few thousand farang with full licenses now. Your pal didn't care enough about his job or his students.  You labor under a number of misperceptions. Maybe instead of all those teachers being out and about they could be bettering themselves. My six years of experience has been hard won, but sometimes I even surprise myself at the opportunities I find myself in. I can't speak to being over 60 but being nearly 60 has absolutely posed no issues on being hired. Further, despite having only a BA and no tefl I've been looked at by some very good universities and some mid tier internationals as well. I just see a lack of ambition. Further, I don't see Filipinos as competition, not in the least.

 

There are growing opportunities for Filipinos because they are willing to accept local teaching wages despite having essentially the same professional expenses as westerners. That's personal choice. But they cannot ride on my back. Just because I'm making X means they deserve Y. I hear a lot of Filipino whinging about Caucasians and wages but they continue to work for poor salaries whereas I've walked away from jobs paying 45+ and 50+. It has been my long standing opinion that it costs 27.5k at a minimum to exist in Thailand. That excludes tickets home, holidays, girlfriends, medical dental, savings. I spend about 22k a month but that's just the monthly allowance. In conclusion, I disagree with most of what you've stated.

Someone else who seems a little confused.

 

"Sticks" you say, "no aircon" you say. One of the hottest environments I ever taught in was in Suan Kularb school, Bangkok. Top 5 in Thailand. No aircon. You don't need to be in the sticks for no aircon. In fact my last job, in Issan, did offer a classroom with aircon and I turned it down. I would rather not have it. 

 

With long waiting times at Kurusapa for a waiver, a work permit in 3 weeks can't happen. Your 90 days pretty much agrees with what I said so thanks for that.

 

You have heard that upcountry any Toeic score will do. Wrong again. It is not up to the school. It is Khurusapa and Labour office that set the rules.

 

You say you have been "looked at" even though you don;t have a TEFL. No surprise there as a TEFL is not a requirement.

 

Lastly, you talk about "my pal". Not sure what you mean. I was using a scenario as an example. Many people have been working towards a qualification for a licence only to be told the rules have changed, me included. Culture course done, 4 tests done.....now no good and must do something else. Sometimes it is just not worth carrying on. Having only been here for 6 years you may not have heard of these routes to a full licence. That is probably why made the mis conception.

 

It's a shame things went on as they did at Khurusapa as I am a committed teacher and have been for 20+ years here in Thailand. Time to hang up my chalk.

Edited July 8, 2019 by puchooay

[stubuzz]

 The TEFL salaries and working conditions in Thailand are some of the worst in Asia. Other countries are offering much better packages now.

This has left the desperate and unambitious to stay and accept the nonsense and bureaucracy that this country pushes on its foreign workers.

 

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

Culture course done, 4 tests done.....now no good and must do something else.

Are the 4 tests no longer acceptable for a license?

[youreavinalaff]

2 hours ago, stubuzz said:

 

 

Are the 4 tests no longer acceptable for a license?

No. What decade are you living in?

Edited July 8, 2019 by youreavinalaff

[Scott]

Troll post and reply removed.  

[stubuzz]

8 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

No. What decade are you living in?

I like you; You are funny. 

Anyway, A colleague got his licence and has renewed it last year with A BA and 4 tests. Thus my question. When did Krusapa stop accepting them?

[puchooay]

11 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

I like you; You are funny. 

Anyway, A colleague got his licence and has renewed it last year with A BA and 4 tests. Thus my question. When did Krusapa stop accepting them?

That is a renewal. That means the licence holder has been grandfathered. If you took the tests and applied after the tests were suspended, with no notice, you were left in the lurch. I think not quite a decade ago but at least 5 years. Must be near that as I have had and used 3 waivers since I took the tests.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by puchooay

[DavisH]

25 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

I like you; You are funny. 

Anyway, A colleague got his licence and has renewed it last year with A BA and 4 tests. Thus my question. When did Krusapa stop accepting them?

I would have thought that someone qualifying for the four tests would have applied for the full licence and the earliest opportunity. A fellow teacher did the four tests and renewed her 5 licence last year based on passing the four tests. 

[puchooay]

8 minutes ago, DavisH said:

I would have thought that someone qualifying for the four tests would have applied for the full licence and the earliest opportunity.

I tried to. If you have ever dealt with Thai officialdom you will understand that things take time.

 

I had also just taken a new position. The school were not really sure of what they had to do even though I gave them the paper work from Khurusapa to show them what I needed.

 

By the time they were up to speed the goal posts had been moved. The decision to not let me slip under the net seemed very harsh and kind of put me off trying again.

 

Just my luck I guess. I even had a licence back in 2002. I could have got a new licence under the grandfathering rule but, sadly, I had a 3 month break from teaching and thus could not show continual employment.

 

Never mind. Onwards and upwards and time to move on. More lucrative and rewarding employment is now here.

[Number 6]

On 7/8/2019 at 7:22 PM, puchooay said:

Someone else who seems a little confused.

 

"Sticks" you say, "no aircon" you say. One of the hottest environments I ever taught in was in Suan Kularb school, Bangkok. Top 5 in Thailand. No aircon. You don't need to be in the sticks for no aircon. In fact my last job, in Issan, did offer a classroom with aircon and I turned it down. I would rather not have it. 

 

With long waiting times at Kurusapa for a waiver, a work permit in 3 weeks can't happen. Your 90 days pretty much agrees with what I said so thanks for that.

 

You have heard that upcountry any Toeic score will do. Wrong again. It is not up to the school. It is Khurusapa and Labour office that set the rules.

 

You say you have been "looked at" even though you don;t have a TEFL. No surprise there as a TEFL is not a requirement.

 

Lastly, you talk about "my pal". Not sure what you mean. I was using a scenario as an example. Many people have been working towards a qualification for a licence only to be told the rules have changed, me included. Culture course done, 4 tests done.....now no good and must do something else. Sometimes it is just not worth carrying on. Having only been here for 6 years you may not have heard of these routes to a full licence. That is probably why made the mis conception.

 

It's a shame things went on as they did at Khurusapa as I am a committed teacher and have been for 20+ years here in Thailand. Time to hang up my chalk.

 

I'm not here to bang on you, in fact I stay out of this sub forum but your post seemed excessively negative. We've been teaching the exact same amount of time. Honestly, you've made poor career choices. You're the one quitting, up country, no license, aimless, bitter. It's not me that's confused.

 

Suankularb I believe is now entirely air conditioned and has been for 4-5 years. Before that most of it was aircon. You must have been teaching the throwaway classes and or or local kids. Anyway, it is generally ranked #3 behind Triam Udom Suksa, Mahidol Wittayasorn. In reality Pathumwan Demonstration is better academically yet Suankularb is usually assumed to be in the third slot. Samsen Wittayalai following. No way it's behind Samen or Sattriwittaya. But a minor point.

 

The rules have absolutely not changed in recent memory save to make it easier by dropping the Thai culture course. My licensing process was absolutely efficient and took approximately 75-90 days. Again, four and even five waivers if master's degree and possibly even post-grad is in process - possible.

 

Money is better in Vietnam but they want people who actually know what they are doing.

 

[puchooay]

11 hours ago, Number 6 said:

 

I'm not here to bang on you, in fact I stay out of this sub forum but your post seemed excessively negative. We've been teaching the exact same amount of time. Honestly, you've made poor career choices. You're the one quitting, up country, no license, aimless, bitter. It's not me that's confused.

 

Suankularb I believe is now entirely air conditioned and has been for 4-5 years. Before that most of it was aircon. You must have been teaching the throwaway classes and or or local kids. Anyway, it is generally ranked #3 behind Triam Udom Suksa, Mahidol Wittayasorn. In reality Pathumwan Demonstration is better academically yet Suankularb is usually assumed to be in the third slot. Samsen Wittayalai following. No way it's behind Samen or Sattriwittaya. But a minor point.

 

The rules have absolutely not changed in recent memory save to make it easier by dropping the Thai culture course. My licensing process was absolutely efficient and took approximately 75-90 days. Again, four and even five waivers if master's degree and possibly even post-grad is in process - possible.

 

Money is better in Vietnam but they want people who actually know what they are doing.

 

You seriously are confused and bitter and you seem to think it is OK to put people down.

 

I am far from bitter. If you would care to read my post, and as you seem to have a high opinion of your own intelligence, actually try to understand what people are saying then I guess you would not make such glaring mistakes in your assumptions.

 

I said "more lucrative and rewarding job is now here". Still up country, still no teacher licence and earning twice what you are.

 

Not bad for some one who apparently made bad career choices. 55555555

[dinsdale]

Three waivers and that's it. After that you will be forced to do a Grad dip.ed or masters of ed. Cost for dip.ed is Bt74,000. With all the other crap from imm. it's no wonder people are leaving in droves.

[legend49]

On 7/6/2019 at 10:32 AM, Briggsy said:

You have used this phrase to introduce both your posts. It is carefully slipped in to influence the reader. Yet you have not spelled out what you believe the difference is between the past and the present. 

 

Could you clearly state what you think the change or changes are?

None!

[bkkgriz]

I got very bored of jumping through the hoops. Take a culture course. Take these tests that are so poorly written nobody can understand them. Fill out a mountain of paperwork every year and report to immigration every 90 days to work in a country where you are not respected. I'm a licensed teacher and made the move to Japan. I moved here five years ago. Wish I had done it 5 years before that.

The education system in Thailand is a joke and it seems to be getting worse. I will never work in the country again. Thailand is a good winter holiday place and that is about it.

[Shaunduhpostman]

And now for some more embittered testimony from people who make poor career decisions. It's all beyond being totally FUBAR. You have to laugh, now the Philippines might start paying teachers a living wage? "Ohhh nooo Mr. Bill! What we do now?!" And to add to that and the laws and crack downs on hiring foreign teachers made without any contact with  reality, the schools  add their own mountains of additional hurdles to all of that as most of them can't be bothered handling the hiring process in a remotely competent manner. Its as though they are doing you a favor by hiring you. You can't believe the circus that springs up around bringing a new foreign teacher in,  Theatre of the absurd or theater of cruelty I'm not sure which it is but the wide array of different kinds of predicaments you can get in with unwilling and unable admin and their dealings with recalcitrant and hostile immigration and other govt bureaucrats  and the imagination put into how to completely folk up a teacher's visa and hiring process is quite something.

 

To take one example, I recently got hired by a university around the corner from my house in Isaan, and the university had the brilliant idea to handle the intake, visa, contract and documents collection process by a committee of 6 or 7 different people.  None of these people could be bothered to read the whole line of correspondence previous so would ask questions that were redundant again and again, I'd get basically reply after reply along the lines of  "They tell me you have many question could you repeat your question?" "Can you explain to me about..." when the question was answered several days ago in the correspondence chain. As is standard nobody had the foggiest notion of the visa and work permit requirements so much time was them asking me because I have been through it all so many times before. They started off asking me in the email saying I'd been hired with: Please send all of your original documents in the mail: passport, diploma, and transcripts and any certificates such your TEFL. I said, "No, get someone else if that is what you require I'm not sending my passport and my diplomas through the mail." Then they said Oh you misunderstood, we asked only for copies.   I must have been asked 8 times what foreign country I was in presently when I made it clear in my resume and at the interview on Skype when again the committee was surprised I was living in Thailand within 15 kilometers of the school and then I was blamed by the snarky lady in big cat eye glasses heading the hiring committee for the oversight, "Well, if you are here, then WHY DIDN"T YOU COME IN to the office for interview," complete with an eye roll.

 

I finally told them I'm not about to go and work for a school that can't, after two weeks, answer the simple and fundamental questions of when do we start the new term, when are the hours of work so that I can arrange transport and where is the office located so I can drop my copies of requisite documents off. These questions were somehow beyond them, despite the committee all having a very good command of English, and went unanswered for two weeks. To their credit they answered the question about what are the work hours with, "Up to you and maybe you have to teach sometime in the morning and some time at night." so better you rent an apartment on campus we only charge 3,300 per month. I asked, "Oh... so is it a requirement that I live on campus? Its been weeks now and no mention was made of that. Have I not made it clear I have a house here already? Please just give me a range of possible hours." That info was never given, how rude of me to ask for specifics and clarifiction or suggest that things were gradually being sprung on me. . The last straw was when they started in with "You know you have to hurry, we don't have much time now. We take a lot of time to answer your question. No time now." I said "No, you have to hurry and get another teacher because I think I understand how things are over there, all important issues, like say a room to hold classes in perhaps, or say use of a photocopy machine can just be diddled until there is no time left to deal with them and oh then well..., no more time! so find someone else who doesn't mind working in that kind of situation.

[revup]

On 7/6/2019 at 4:53 PM, allane said:

And I remember seeing a farang on one of the discussion boards looking for someone to "higher" him to work as an English teacher. and another one who said "I wanna job...", and stated that it was perfectly fine to say that, after I took exception to it.

That is a good point. I often see these typos(?), I make them myself. However, it is laughable when someone displays their ignorance by trying to defend the error.

[Isaanbiker]

10 hours ago, puchooay said:

You seriously are confused and bitter and you seem to think it is OK to put people down.

 

I am far from bitter. If you would care to read my post, and as you seem to have a high opinion of your own intelligence, actually try to understand what people are saying then I guess you would not make such glaring mistakes in your assumptions.

 

I said "more lucrative and rewarding job is now here". Still up country, still no teacher licence and earning twice what you are.

 

Not bad for some one who apparently made bad career choices. 55555555

There must have been a time when Khurusapha had lost all their data, and they started over with nil for all foreign teachers. I remember the time when the waiver(s) were all in a sudden, not visible anymore, and they started over again. 

 

Some of us must have had 6 to 9 waivers already considering the years we're teaching. 

 

  Just trying to be fair, we all knew that it was coming, didn't we? I've also made my most ridiculous experiences. A three to four-year course for a Master's in English at Ubon Rajabhat turned out to be not enough to receive the license.

 

Khurusapha then told me that such a Master's in English wouldn't satisfy them, but a Diploma in TE would? 

 

 I was already enrolled but could get out without any financial loss. That was the time when I've heard about the Diploma in Teacher Education, at this time for 65 K, payable in monthly installments, and I was lucky that I could do mine entirely online.

 

Unfortunately, was the institution more than questionable and even being already in the second term, I had to find out that nobody was able to check on all my assignments. It was only about money; nobody cared about me.

 

I felt like an idiot, to be honest, and couldn't get any more of their housemade bs. on daily basis. 

 

After a considerable fight, I was very close to quitting my Diploma, but I luckily finished it. I had already paid most of the fees and had to bit my tongue to continue. 

 

The eight to ten months turned out to be 30 months, so nothing was as they've told me.

 

When I finally had my Diploma, the next problem. I just had started at a school in my city and didn't know that I had to be at one school for at least one year.

 

And when they say 365 days they mean it! I knew a guy who's sent back because he's only working for 360 days at his school!  

 

For those who didn't have a degree, they also offered a BA in education, which is/was also accredited by Khurusapha.

 

I knew that I had to do something, just waiting didn't make any sense, and I've now got my license and less stress with Immigration and labor department.

 

I know a few people who went the same way to be able to continue teaching here. We all knew that we had to do something, no way to "wait it out."

 

And yes, these days you'll find plenty of South Africans, East Europeans, Russians, and other nationalities.

 

Would all the Filipinos have a real degree, why do they not have a valid teacher's license from their own country? 

 

 The TCT don't have the workforce to check on all these degrees, many of them in Tagalog only.  

 

I'm on 2.5 K less /month, from what I had ten years ago, while everything has gotten way more expensive.

 

So many laws and regulations were changed that it isn't fun anymore. 

It's either time to move on, or something has to happen. 

          

 

 

 

 

 

  

[stubuzz]

17 minutes ago, Isaanbiker said:

I'm on 2.5 K less /month, from what I had ten years ago, while everything has gotten way more expensive

Unless you are already wealthy, it is financial suicide to work here long term. Other countries are now offering much better packages.

[Tilacme]

last year i was paid 20,000 a month.  I am informed that the thai gov will give any gov school 30,000 a month for every farang teacher. the school required every student to pay 500bt a year for foreign teachers, me and a Chinese lady, which amounts to roughly 50,000 a month.  they didn't give me any lesson plans. so what was the main purpose for me being there?

[cyril sneer]

On 7/8/2019 at 11:38 PM, youreavinalaff said:

No. What decade are you living in?

are you puchooay? ????

[puchooay]

Has any anyone actually got a licence recently and can actually tell us what documents and qualifications they used?

Edited July 12, 2019 by puchooay