Expat group launches online petition calling for TM.30 to be scrapped

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, elwood said:

Very good editorial in BP this morning, regarding the TM30.

This is the kind of exposure that even the Immigration bosses and politicians would probably be made aware of.

You are not allowed to directly link, but just google 'TM30 a shot in the foot bangkok post'.

 

It has errors though and the TM28/30/47 is the name of the form, would be better to use the number of the clause in the act.

Edited July 31, 2019 by DrTuner

[Peterw42]

28 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Actually all that matters is the act. The immigration police is simply doing their job and enforcing it. What are we going to ask, please don't do your job?

 

The act needs to be changed and the requirement either put in the same blanket as the 24h reports, i.e. they can be waived by the Director General for certain visa classes, or the clause scrapped altogether. Even if somehow somebody was able to lobby this to the government setting the laws, it'll take years and will open a can of worms when a law from 1979 starts to get a makeover under a foreigner-hostile military government. 

 

Be careful what you wish for.

But Thai immigration isnt enforcing as per whats written in the Act, depending on what office the enforcement is random, inconsistent, or contrary to what is written in the act, they are demanding TM30s and fines from people who are not liable under the act. I dont get this "just re-write the Act" and everything will be fine. They are making up their own interpretation and enforcement of the act now, why will that change if the wording of the act changes.

The "law" as practiced needs to change because its not much to do with whats written.

 

If I go and re-write the traffic act, will it fix people not wearing bike helmuts or police not booking them.

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Peterw42

[schlemmi]

9 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Actually all that matters is the act. The immigration police is simply doing their job and enforcing it. What are we going to ask, please don't do your job?

 

The act needs to be changed and the requirement either put in the same blanket as the 24h reports, i.e. they can be waived by the Director General for certain visa classes, or the clause scrapped altogether. Even if somehow somebody was able to lobby this to the government setting the laws, it'll take years and will open a can of worms when a law from 1979 starts to get a makeover under a foreigner-hostile military government. 

 

Be careful what you wish for.

The only to do is to have the IO not to urge the housemasters or what evever people have to report to do this report for the same person over and over and over and... as long the foreing person is living in the concerning home. Just travelling around to other provinces or out of the country and returning back to the same home as registered before is no reason to process a new tm30. There is nothing in the law that urges the housmaster to do so. If someone has better information please come around with evidence. With the legal document where it is written in.

Further more stop the IO to redirect the responsibility about tm30 to the foringers have to be reportet. Its not ther responsibility, its the responsibilitie of the housmaster and if he fails only he can be fined and only in the way that is stated in the law.

In the case the hausemaster is the foringer itself in one person, the truth is he not has to report him ir herself atall. He has to report  2nd party foringer if he reseives him or her to live in the home where he is in duty as the housemaster. But the actual practice to make a sefreport does not harm, not makes to much pain even it is not realy necsessary. The point is: Report once is enough.

[Joe Mcseismic]

Actually, I think the 90 day report is more ridiculous than the TM30. Though no trouble to do either from the comfort of this chair I am presently slouched in.....

[DrTuner]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

But Thai immigration isnt enforcing as per whats written in the Act, depending on what office the enforcement is random, inconsistent, or contrary to what is written in the act, they are demanding TM30s and fines from people who are not liable under the act. I dont get this "just re-write the Act" and everything will be fine. They are making up their own interpretation and enforcement of the act now, why will that change if the wording of the act changes.

The "law" as practiced needs to change because its not much to do with whats written.

 

If I go and re-write the traffic act, will it fix people not wearing bike helmuts or police not booking them.

It's a case of fix the cause, not the symptom. And as we know fixing the police around here just ain't going to happen without a very large scale disruption in the entire Thai system, such as civil war. As such I've already given up any hope.

 

Telling the police ignore the laws or interpret them in one way will only lead to more tea money being collected or everyone doing their own thing, as it is now. 

 

6 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

The point is: Report once is enough.

And once you go in a hotel for a short holiday and they do a TM30, you're out of your own residence again. Which they'll notice the next time you need to contact immigration, like a 90-day report. Not practical.

 

My suggestion:Just do the right thing and stop bringing fringe benefits from the PR system where long termers should be in the first place into non-immigrant short term permits. Fix the PR process and it's eligibility rules.

[schlemmi]

2 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

It's a case of fix the cause, not the symptom. And as we know fixing the police around here just ain't going to happen without a very large scale disruption in the entire Thai system, such as civil war. As such I've already given up any hope.

 

Telling the police ignore the laws or interpret them in one way will only lead to more tea money being collected or everyone doing their own thing, as it is now. 

 

And once you go in a hotel for a short holiday and they do a TM30, you're out of your own residence again. Which they'll notice the next time you need to contact immigration, like a 90-day report. Not practical.

 

My suggestion:Just do the right thing and stop bringing fringe benefits from the PR system where long termers should be in the first place into non-immigrant short term permits. Fix the PR process and it's eligibility rules.

Please bring evidence that if a hotel processes a tm30 with you as the guest you are out of your home. Your belongings are still there, your rental contract or whatever give you the right under zivil and bussines law is still valid etc.s 

What makes you thinking if the hotel proccesses a tm30 because the hotel takes you as guest living in one of their rooms cancels the tm30 for the home you basically spend your live?

[DrTuner]

2 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Please bring evidence that if a hotel processes a tm30 with you as the guest you are out of your home.

The TM30 is recorded in the immigration database. Check the "online 90d report" thread for people who haven't been able to do the 90d report because it was missing or had wrong address. Obviously it's the last recorded address.

 

Your "permanent" address is recorded in the Thai civil system, in a yellow or blue thabian baan. Immigration does not use it, except as proof of address when doing extensions. The fact that the systems are not interconnected is again a failure of Thai governance.

[Roy Baht]

1 hour ago, lamyai3 said:

The TM30 is ridiculous, and by extension so is anyone who supports it or argues for it. Sure, the petition is flawed, but that's hardly relevant - it's a valiant attempt to raise the level of complaint from barstool and forum whinging to a national level where it has to be taken seriously. The fact that it's mentioned in today's excellent Bangkok Post editorial "TM30 a shot in the foot" is proof enough that it's been a resounding success so far, whether the petition ultimately gets the requisite number of signatures or not. Once it's out in the open like this, immigration can no longer ignore the problems they've created. 

The TM30 is indeed ridiculous, and I am not supporting it or arguing for it. It is becoming a problem for Thais as well and, as a result, is already in the process of being addressed. It will most likely take time to solve this problem. Things might even get worse before they get better.  Meanwhile, I do not think this petition rises above the level of barstool complaint or forum whinging but you are free to believe otherwise. My belief is: 1. This problem will eventually be solved, and 2. This petition will have little to nothing to do with that solution.

 

 

[schlemmi]

2 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

The TM30 is recorded in the immigration database. Check the "online 90d report" thread for people who haven't been able to do the 90d report because it was missing or had wrong address. Obviously it's the last recorded address.

 

Your "permanent" address is recorded in the Thai civil system, in a yellow or blue thabian baan. Immigration does not use it, except as proof of address when doing extensions. The fact that the systems are not interconnected is again a failure of Thai governance.

Its just an administrative problem of the immigration.

But there is nothing in the law that urges you to report over and over. Isn't it?

[DrTuner]

8 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Its just an administrative problem of the immigration.

But there is nothing in the law that urges you to report over and over. Isn't it?

I guess you could argue a history of your lodgings, even if it's not strictly reported every time but once upon the first arrival at the address within 24h, would in a loose sense fulfill the requirement of the immigration act. It's because the wording isn't strict (never is in Thai laws, is it?) that it could be used as a quick fix loophole.

 

I for one can't be arsed to do TM30 for my home every time I travel out, but I also travel out in less than 90d so I don't have to come into contact with the immigration office at all. That's my "quick fix".

 

I still would prefer for them to fix the actual culprit, letting people live here long term on back to back short term permits when they clearly belong in permanent residency program.

Edited July 31, 2019 by DrTuner

[schlemmi]

5 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

It's because the wording isn't strict (never is in Thai laws, is it?)

You have to act according to what is written, not to what is not written.

[DrTuner]

17 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

You have to act according to what is written, not to what is not written.

They should write it in a way that gives no room for interpretation. I know, way too much to ask here. 

 

The purpose is of course clear: to know where the alien is right now and where was he at a certain point of time. One way of achieving this would be a default address (the one in thabian baan) and check in/out events from other temporary places of stay. Still means every checkin&out would have to be recorded each time, except the default address. 

[schlemmi]

25 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

They should write it in a way that gives no room for interpretation. I know, way too much to ask here. 

 

The purpose is of course clear: to know where the alien is right now and where was he at a certain point of time. One way of achieving this would be a default address (the one in thabian baan) and check in/out events from other temporary places of stay. Still means every checkin&out would have to be recorded each time, except the default address. 

Thats right and so are only two places wher the foringer could be. At home or at the last tm30 reported. So easy to catch him up if needed.

[Roy Baht]

49 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

They should write it in a way that gives no room for interpretation. I know, way too much to ask here. 

 

The purpose is of course clear: to know where the alien is right now and where was he at a certain point of time. One way of achieving this would be a default address (the one in thabian baan) and check in/out events from other temporary places of stay. Still means every checkin&out would have to be recorded each time, except the default address. 

This is the way things always have been and will be--for both foreigners and Thais--but foreigners, no matter how long they've been here, never seem to understand. "Laws" which gov't officials enforce are more like guidelines than what westerners would call laws. Gov't officials have great discretionary power when it comes to applying those "laws". They can follow them to the letter, or they can make exceptions for "special cases"--and what qualifies as a "special case" is entirely up to them--or they can do anything in between. On the positive side, this affords Thai bureaucracy flexibility and efficiency, in dealing with cases that in a western context might require a complicated appeals process and lots of red tape. (Oh you think Thailand has lotsa red tape? Go live in the US or UK.)  It also inspires loyalty in these local gov't "lords" who know that all of their power flows down to them from above. On the negative side, this quasi-feudal system can allow for quite a bit of corruption and incompetence--and often outright ignorance of the very laws it is their job to enforce.  As I said, this is just the way things are here, always have been, always will be.  

[ben2talk]

2 hours ago, DrTuner said:

The TM30 is recorded in the immigration database. Check the "online 90d report" thread for people who haven't been able to do the 90d report because it was missing or had wrong address. Obviously it's the last recorded address.

 

Your "permanent" address is recorded in the Thai civil system, in a yellow or blue thabian baan. Immigration does not use it, except as proof of address when doing extensions. The fact that the systems are not interconnected is again a failure of Thai governance.

It's hard to get your head around just how disconnected all these offices are...

 

Just a little off topic here - after an accident about 12 years ago I was told by the court I couldn't leave the country until my case had finished. It took 2 years, after which time I was well overdue a visa run...

No communication, no way to do the visa. They simply make you wrong - it seems to be their intention.

Happily I needed a new passport, and travelled 3 days after the transfer. I was fined from the transfer date, not the visa... so just 3 days overstay I paid with a huge smile, but the fact remains that they just don't care if the system doesn't work... they just make up and instigate new rules.

 

Just as they close U turns and have signs directing you to the closed U-turn just a few metres away. They just can't be arsed.

[Fred white]

18 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Nobody has been arrested or threatened with arrest for not doing a TM30. Seriously, why would you make stuff like that up ???

 

The military regime has ended, its now an elected government. 

That's why the PM is still called general ????

[ThaiLawOnline]

5 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Actually, I think the 90 day report is more ridiculous than the TM30. Though no trouble to do either from the comfort of this chair I am presently slouched in.....

 

That is next step. There is a panel of foreign journalists that will meet on 15th August to talk about TM30 and other issues. You can't change completely the law. We did the editorial of Bangkok Post today. Foreigners should be happy.... I do think we will change that law. But we need maybe few months, or a year. There are steps to change laws.

[ThaiLawOnline]

5 hours ago, Roy Baht said:

 Meanwhile, I do not think this petition rises above the level of barstool complaint or forum whinging but you are free to believe otherwise. My belief is: 1. This problem will eventually be solved, and 2. This petition will have little to nothing to do with that solution.

 

 

 

Bangkok Post, The Thaiger, Richard Barrow, Thaivisa, etc. in less than 5 days. What have you done ROY BAHT? I am invite to a panel on 15th August that might change things. You talk over your head and complain and moan instead of participating to a positive initiative. There is a momentum now and if you think it is not the thousands of people that signed the petition of the hundreds of replies here, or the hundreds of comments of facebook, the hundreds of shares, you are just blind. I am not saying ONLY that petition will change thing: I am saying it does NOT HURT and it actually helps a lot.

 

Read the news today about TM30 reporting in a hospital. Or for a foreigner coming back in Thailand in HIS condo. This is ridiculous. If ridiculous, sign that petition, please.

[RBOP]

7 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

 

That is next step. There is a panel of foreign journalists that will meet on 15th August to talk about TM30 and other issues. You can't change completely the law. We did the editorial of Bangkok Post today. Foreigners should be happy.... I do think we will change that law. But we need maybe few months, or a year. There are steps to change laws.

Hey I just noticed I didn't get a receipt for the fine I paid today at immigration. I see on other threads the same is being said. I think this runs much deeper than we thought. 

[ThaiLawOnline]

1 minute ago, RBOP said:

Hey I just noticed I didn't get a receipt for the fine I paid today at immigration. I see on other threads the same is being said. I think this runs much deeper than we thought. 

Totally not surprised. Very deep. We might need a petition to get receipts!!!!!!  ????

[schlemmi]

43 minutes ago, RBOP said:

Hey I just noticed I didn't get a receipt for the fine I paid today at immigration. I see on other threads the same is being said. I think this runs much deeper than we thought. 

If they fined on a legal base they have to hand out a receipt. I uou have any evidence about it you should report to the NACC.

[IvorBiggun2]

49 minutes ago, RBOP said:

I just noticed I didn't get a receipt for the fine

When they tell you you're going to be fined then you ask if they will give you a receipt . If they say 'no' you don't pay. End of. Same applies to a police officer.

[Fred white]

53 minutes ago, RBOP said:

Hey I just noticed I didn't get a receipt for the fine I paid today at immigration. I see on other threads the same is being said. I think this runs much deeper than we thought. 

Of course not it went into the IO's pocket ????

[DrTuner]

2 hours ago, RBOP said:

Hey I just noticed I didn't get a receipt for the fine I paid today at immigration. I see on other threads the same is being said. I think this runs much deeper than we thought. 

Yup, into deep pockets.

[CaptainJack]

I don't really know how many people signed from my efforts,  but a bunch for sure.

 

And, what I really want to say is this.  

 

I am like most, skeptical.  But I have seen results in my own past activism where initiatives like this have made a change. 

 

There is a remote possibility,  especially with the economic impact on the Thai economy due to so many other issues,  someone in a very high position of power could take notice and behind the scenes say something.   

 

Likely? Probably not.  Possible? Sure.  Stranger things have happened.....

[inThailand]

The new headline will read 10,000 expats deported for hurting Thailand's image? And TV closed down?

[lkv]

10 minutes ago, inThailand said:

The new headline will read 10,000 expats deported for hurting Thailand's image? And TV closed down?

There is no legal basis for the petition, it's just for emotional impact. On who, I am not sure. Clearly not the authorities.

 

So the good news it, the 2,000+ people that signed it, myself included under the alias of John Doe, are safe.

 

(Joking, i did not sign it under the alias of John Doe, just proving why it lacks legal basis.)

 

Which is a bit worrying, coming from a lawyer.

Edited July 31, 2019 by lkv

[LivinLOS]

14 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

 

That is next step. There is a panel of foreign journalists that will meet on 15th August to talk about TM30 and other issues. You can't change completely the law. We did the editorial of Bangkok Post today. Foreigners should be happy.... I do think we will change that law. But we need maybe few months, or a year. There are steps to change laws.

just a thank you for actually trying, outcome or not, calm well approached attempts can only highlight there is a genuine issue that should be considered. 

 

Address filing is not in itself so terrible.. However a minimum of 3 filings within 91 days of arrival TM6 TM30/TM28 and a TM47 is just silly.. For people who have a weekend condo at the beach there is the possibility of 2 filings a week required, again silly. 

 

A single working website, to register a non hotel address, once and keep it current, seems realistic. 

[evadgib]

The authorities would find it more culturally acceptable if the Thai spouses and/or children of effected parties were doing the petitioning rather than the foreigners themselves.

While they're at it they could also mention the discriminatory free pass Thai men married to foreign women receive (no financial hoops to jump through per annum!)

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by evadgib

[FarFlungFalang]

On 7/28/2019 at 7:00 PM, Jonathan Fairfield said:

Under Article 37, any foreigner residing in Thailand who visits another province for more than 24 hours must report to immigration.

So if I am not in a province for more than 24 hours I don't have to do a TM30?So if I drive from Yasothon and stay overnight in three separate provinces but for less than 24 hours then stay in Bangkok overnight again for less than  24hrs then three more provinces provinces on the way back to Yasothon Then I don't have to report to immigration?

    My point is if someone only stays one night at a hotel they are rarely there for 24hrs therefore the hotel or residence doesn't need to report.

    Is this correct according to the law?