Meeting with immigration about TM30 and the latest news about the petition

[Max69xl]

10 hours ago, elviajero said:

Where do you get 5,000 from? The maximum fine is 2,000 baht.

1600 baht maximum at Chonburi Immigration.

[Martyp]

9 minutes ago, seancbk said:

Can you report your own address when you return home from a trip overseas or to another province?   

Or does your landlord have to do it?

I've not had any contact with my landlord for almost 7 years and have no desire to instigate contact with her now, so there is no way she's going to be submitting any TM.30 on my behalf.

 

 

Where are you? You can self report in Bangkok if you have a lease. If you are not in the Bangkok district you should tell your Immigration office about your situation and they should be able to figure out how you can file.

[Max69xl]

51 minutes ago, seancbk said:

Can you report your own address when you return home from a trip overseas or to another province?   

Or does your landlord have to do it?

I've not had any contact with my landlord for almost 7 years and have no desire to instigate contact with her now, so there is no way she's going to be submitting any TM.30 on my behalf.

 

 

You can do it yourself. I have done it twice at Chonburi Immigration.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Max69xl

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

I post some thai words because we are talking about thai law. This law is written in thai as the only  language.

All translations are totally useless in the case you have to claryfy e.g. at the court. If you want to find the exact reading of the law, then it could be helpfull if you have a few thai words you may google for.

 

And if you read the original thai versions of both the immi act and the people registration act then you will understand that if there is a hosemaster registered in the records of the ampoe and this person is reachable, that only this perspn is the housemaster in the point of view of the law. Both the immi law and other laws where a housemaster plays a roole.

Maybe I can explain this another way.

 

Only Thais go in blue books, a Thai can only be in one bluebook, as housemaster or as an occupant. If a thai person is renting out a property to others they are no longer in that housebook, they are in the housebook where they now live.

 

Unless you are sharing a house with a Thai person, they are not in the housebook, as housemaster or occupant, they dont live there.

 

If you rent a house or condo, and no thais are live in that house, there is no thai person listed as the housemaster.

 

Some Thais may be still listed in the bluebook as living at a property even though they dont, but even then they can only be listed in one book, if they have or manage multiple rental properties they can still only be in one.

 

99% of foreigners renting a property, the housemaster is blank, as it should be because no Thais live at that property.

 

Its no use saying the housemaster, as written in the bluebook , is responsible for TM30, there isnt one.

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, lkv said:

10 hours ago, elviajero said:

Where do you get 5,000 from? The maximum fine is 2,000 baht.

If you "surrender". I.e. you go to them.

 

If they come to you, it's more.

 

I think I read some reports where they were asking 5K when they knocked at the condo door in Bkk, "negotiable" of course.

 

If you look at the picture I attached above, it starts at 1,600 onwards if "arrested".

 

That's taken from Richard's Twitter btw.

The maximum fine by law is 2,000 baht. For years the offices have been charging, 800, or 1,600, or 2,000.

 

So unless we are getting into the realms of corruption the most you can legally be charged if they knock on your door is 2,000 baht.

[elviajero]

40 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

10 hours ago, elviajero said:

Where do you get 5,000 from? The maximum fine is 2,000 baht.

1600 baht maximum at Chonburi Immigration.

800 or 1,600 are the common discounted amounts charged everywhere. 

 

I have heard of the maximum 2,000 being charged, which all offices are entitled to charge. Anything over 2,000 baht is extortion.

[IvorBiggun2]

1 minute ago, elviajero said:

The maximum fine by law is 2,000 baht. For years the offices have been charging, 800, or 1,600, or 2,000.

 

So unless we are getting into the realms of corruption the most you can legally be charged if they knock on your door is 2,000 baht.

So why does this penalty have no start figure when all others have ie  1 day overstay up to a maximum? There is no start figure ie for 1 day. And my missus paid 400, no receipt after 14 years here.

[IvorBiggun2]

2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Anything over 2,000 baht is extortion.

Anything without a receipt is a criminal act.

[schlemmi]

39 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Maybe I can explain this another way.

 

Only Thais go in blue books, a Thai can only be in one bluebook, as housemaster or as an occupant. If a thai person is renting out a property to others they are no longer in that housebook, they are in the housebook where they now live.

 

Unless you are sharing a house with a Thai person, they are not in the housebook, as housemaster or occupant, they dont live there.

 

If you rent a house or condo, and no thais are live in that house, there is no thai person listed as the housemaster.

 

Some Thais may be still listed in the bluebook as living at a property even though they dont, but even then they can only be listed in one book, if they have or manage multiple rental properties they can still only be in one.

 

99% of foreigners renting a property, the housemaster is blank, as it should be because no Thais live at that property.

 

Its no use saying the housemaster, as written in the bluebook , is responsible for TM30, there isnt one.

Im have my name in the yellow book an is as housemaster too.

 

I never said a hosmaster listed in the blue book, because the color does no matter because the housemaster may be in the yellow book as well.

 

By the way, not only thais ho to the blue book. Foreigners with residencpermit go there too.

Edited August 12, 2019 by schlemmi
Additional text

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes thats right,

 

Section 4 of the immigration act defines housemaster.

 

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

Not really. Foreigners (with temporary stay permits) are not the house-master.

 

The house-master (Jao Baan) will be named in tha Tabian Baan. Anyone that is not the owner or named as house-master is considered the Possessor.

 

The definition in S.4 is to clarify that the house-master (if one exists) is responsible for reporting regardless of their capacity.

Edited August 12, 2019 by elviajero

[Max69xl]

3 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Im have my name in the yellow book an is as housemaster too.

Petrr

 

3 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Im have my name in the yellow book an is as housemaster too.

Peterw42 just explained the blue housebook for thai nationals. 

[elviajero]

21 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

So why does this penalty have no start figure when all others have ie  1 day overstay up to a maximum? There is no start figure ie for 1 day. And my missus paid 400, no receipt after 14 years here.

Basically the law sets limits and the authorities (IC/MoI/IB) running immigration decide how much to charge within those limits.

 

The overstay limit is 20K. By law even a 1 day overstay could be charged at 20K, but the authorities have decided to charge at 500 per day.

 

Sounds like 400 baht went into someone’s pocket.

[schlemmi]

17 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Not really. Foreigners (with temporary stay permits) are not the house-master.

 

The house-master (Jao Baan) will be named in tha Tabian Baan. Anyone that is not the owner or named as house-master is considered the Possessor.

 

The definition in S.4 is to clarify that the house-master (if one exists) is responsible for reporting regardless of their capacity.

Foteigners with temporary stay permits can be the housemaster in the yelow housebook as well as thais or prople with residencepermit in the blue book.

Edited August 12, 2019 by schlemmi
Changed to be more precise.

[schlemmi]

17 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

Petrr

 

Peterw42 just explained the blue housebook for thai nationals. 

Is i read and understand peters post, my feeling was he is not aware that people in the yellow book may be in there as housemastets too, because he is writing only from the blue book.

Edited August 12, 2019 by schlemmi
Typo

[elviajero]

28 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

32 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Anything over 2,000 baht is extortion.

Anything without a receipt is a criminal act.

Pretty sure it’s not. I doubt any law is broken for not issuing a receipt. Extortion and or trousering the money (theft) is.

[Max69xl]

9 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Is i read and understand peters post, my feeling was he is not aware that people in the yellow book may be in there as housemastets too, because he is writing only from the blue book.

How many expats have the yellow house book? It's not mandatory. 

[schlemmi]

1 minute ago, Max69xl said:

How many expats have the yellow house book? It's not mandatory. 

Shure, not all expats have the name in a yellow housebook and it is not mandatory too.

 

From the expats i know about it is 100%.

 

If an expat has its name in a yellow housebook and is noted as housemaster, then he is a housemaster in the same way as a thai housemaster.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, schlemmi said:

Foteigners with temporary stay permits can be the housemaster in the yelow housebook as well as thais or prople with residencepermit in the blue book.

Yes I'm aware of that. Foreigners in a Yellow TB are listed as either an occupier or in some cases the House-master.

 

My point was that a foreigner is not considered a House-master just because they live in the property. The House-master is a named person.

[wobalt]

There is no mention of landlord in any TM30 rules (that has been added by posters), Its owner, housemaster or possessor does the report, as a long term tenant you are housemaster/possessor.

Just for my understanding what is the definition of a long term tenant


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[schlemmi]

56 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Yes I'm aware of that. Foreigners in a Yellow TB are listed as either an occupier or in some cases the House-master.

 

My point was that a foreigner is not considered a House-master just because they live in the property. The House-master is a named person.

If the named person is away, not reachable or can not do his duties in this case the person taking care of the house is considered as the housemaster. This is written in the peoples registration act. 

 

You are right, a foreigner living in a property is not autmaticaly considered as housmaster.

 

It is as follows:

 

No book, Housemaster is the person has the duty to take care of the property.

 

Book, but no housemaster noted. Same as above.

 

Book,has housemaster, and this person is still alive reachable and can do his duty. Housemaster == person in the book.

 

Book, has housemaster but he is out of order and  can not do the duties, than the person taking care  of the property is considered as the housemaster.

 

[Peterw42]

26 minutes ago, wobalt said:

Just for my understanding what is the definition of a long term tenant


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A lease in place would probably ok, intermet account etc. 

[elviajero]

18 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

If the named person is away, not reachable or can not do his duties in this case the person taking care of the house is considered as the housemaster. This is written in the peoples registration act. 

 

You are right, a foreigner living in a property is not autmaticaly considered as housmaster.

 

It is as follows:

 

No book, Housemaster is the person has the duty to take care of the property.

No. They are considered the Possessor. 

 

18 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Book, but no housemaster noted. Same as above.

No. They are considered the Possessor.

 

18 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Book,has housemaster, and this person is still alive reachable and can do his duty. Housemaster == person in the book.

Yes.

 

18 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Book, has housemaster but he is out of order and  can not do the duties, than the person taking care  of the property is considered as the housemaster.

No. They are considered the Possessor.

 

The Immigration Act is not designating who the "house-master" is. It is simply confirming that whoever the house-master is, “in accordance with the law on people act", they are responsible to report. 

 

The owner is always responsible, however, they don’t always live in the property, or are named as house-master, or know about foreign guests. The reason “Possessor” is included in the act is as a catch all backup in case the owner isn’t living in the property and no house-master is nominated in the TB. 

 

The act gives responsibility to three separate entities; Owner, House-master, or Possessor. Based on your wrong understanding they simply need to specify its down to the House-master. However, if they did that the owner or anyone else responsible for the property is off the hook.

[DrTuner]

Somewhat ironic they want to track aliens within 10cm of their realtime location, but seem to have trouble finding out who is supposed to squeal on them or even knowing where the appointed guard himself is.

[schlemmi]

15 minutes ago, elviajero said:

No. They are considered the Possessor. 

 

No. They are considered the Possessor.

 

Yes.

 

No. They are considered the Possessor.

 

The Immigration Act is not designating who the "house-master" is. It is simply confirming that whoever the house-master is, “in accordance with the law on people act", they are responsible to report. 

 

The owner is always responsible, however, they don’t always live in the property, or are named as house-master, or know about foreign guests. The reason “Possessor” is included in the act is as a catch all backup in case the owner isn’t living in the property and no house-master is nominated in the TB. 

 

The act gives responsibility to three separate entities; Owner, House-master, or Possessor. Based on your wrong understanding they simply need to specify its down to the House-master. However, if they did that the owner or anyone else responsible for the property is off the hook.

Please look to the original thai text in the people registration act an read it carefully to understand it. I say the thai text abd not any translation.

[schlemmi]

25 minutes ago, elviajero said:

No. They are considered the Possessor. 

 

No. They are considered the Possessor.

 

Yes.

 

No. They are considered the Possessor.

 

The Immigration Act is not designating who the "house-master" is. It is simply confirming that whoever the house-master is, “in accordance with the law on people act", they are responsible to report. 

 

The owner is always responsible, however, they don’t always live in the property, or are named as house-master, or know about foreign guests. The reason “Possessor” is included in the act is as a catch all backup in case the owner isn’t living in the property and no house-master is nominated in the TB. 

 

The act gives responsibility to three separate entities; Owner, House-master, or Possessor. Based on your wrong understanding they simply need to specify its down to the House-master. However, if they did that the owner or anyone else responsible for the property is off the hook.

The act gives the responsibility only to one entitie the housemaster. But the housemaster could be the owner, the posessor or each other person. It not gives the resposinsibiloty to 3 different entities. 

 

But there a still 3 dif. entities, the act is talking about:

1. Housemster

2. Owner or posesor of a KeHaSataan (dwellingplace, like a workers camp etc...)

3. Hotelmanager.

Edited August 12, 2019 by schlemmi
Typos.

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Please look to the original thai text in the people registration act an read it carefully to understand it. I say the thai text abd not any translation.

I have read it. I researched this subject in detail several years ago.

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

The act hives the responsibility only to one emtoty the housemaster. But the housemaster could be the owner, the posessor or each other person. It not gives the resposinsibiloty to 3 different entities. 

 

But there a still 3 dif. entities

1 Housemster

2 Owner or posesor of a KeHaSataan (dwellingplace, like a workers camp etc...)

3 Hotelmanager.

 

 

I count 3 separate entities and no statement that responsibility only falls to the housemaster.

 

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.

 

 

[schlemmi]

38 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

 

 

I count 3 separate entities and no statement that responsibility only falls to the housemaster.

 

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.

 

 

Yes, 3 entities. But as long you not live in a hotel (entity 3) or on a workers camp a boat etc

 ( entity 2) than is only entity 1 left that is the housemaster.

 

Tha tranlatiom is missleading.

The part "owner or possessor of the residence" is wrong.

 

It is "The owner or possessor of a dwellingplace" and is a sepatate entity not to mix up with a posessor or owner of the house you live in.

 

Additionally i put the translation of housemaster from the people regisytaton act here:

"Housemaster" means the chief posessor of the house in the position as the posessor or renter or any other position comparable to this. 
In the case there is no housemaster to find or the housemaster is not there, is dead, is away or he is not possible to do his duty consider the person with the duty to take care of the house to be the housemaster during this period.

Edited August 12, 2019 by schlemmi
typo

[schlemmi]

34 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I have read it. I researched this subject in detail several years ago.

Please give us a translation of the housemasterdefinition in the people registration act.

[KhaoYai]

Power-of-Attorney-Form for TM30.pdf

21 hours ago, Basch said:

OK thanks, so in theory all I need to do is the tm30, no additional documents provided by the wife necessary? I was kind of expecting she'd have to come along with house registration, chanods and what not...

For the first registration it all depends on the requirements of your local office. Some appear to just want it done and require very little. I'm registered online now but when I originally went to my local office nearly a year ago, I was firstly told that the registered owner would have to attend but later they agreed to accept a signed copy of her tabien baan and ID card.

 

There is also a power of attorney form specific to TM30 that the official housemaster can sign and let you use - I've attached it to this post.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by KhaoYai