Video: TM30: Thailand’s controversial immigration laws and their consequences - FCCT event

[newatthis]

17 hours ago, johnc925 said:

blah blah blah bullshit... the fact is this is extortion, plain and simple... not well thought out and very poorly executed. Lame arse excuses for lame arse policies. The fact is they do NOT know what they are doing... the GOBS of paperwork are evident of that.

 

What pisses me off is I have been here going on 5 years, have a record of consistent income, yet my moving to a marriage visa requires 400K deposit, even though my records show more than 100K transfer per month like clockwork. I now have to leave the country and move/sell my crap because of this insane policy. My Thai wife cannot believe the stupidity going on.

 

You, sirs, are alienating good expats and it WILL have an impact on your economy.  

John, can't you just show an income of 40,000 baht per month rather than the 400,000 deposit for the marriage visa?

[brianthainess]

19 hours ago, Jonathan Fairfield said:

20 hours ago, Soi Dog said:

This reminds me of when I first visited the USSR in 1984.  I flew into Moscow, took a night train to Kiev and then returned to Moscow on another night train.  When I checked into a Moscow hotel the desk went nuts trying to figure out how I was on my third night in the USSR without having been registered anywhere.

 

Last week I was told that the idea of TM30 originates from Russia. They have or had something very similar which required foreigners to report whenever they stayed somewhere other than their registered address overnight. 

Oh no maybe i have to visit Russia again i was in moscow 1988 (trans sib from china) stayed 2 nights at a dodgy blokes apartment before boarding the train again and was never asked where i had stayed.can i now do it online? ????

[Road Warrior]

thai authorities  like bags of paperwork !!!! forget save the trees !!

[FarFlungFalang]

1 hour ago, Sparkles said:

 

I got fined 1600 b in Chiang Mai for not submitting a TM 30 even though the last time I went out of the country there was no TM 30. Same address for 12 yrs.The officers only reply when I objected was "Orders from Bangkok"

The guy in front of me a man from Holland had been here 27 yrs at the same address he was also fined 1,600 baht.No discretion, no common sense just a revenue raiser.

Edited 1 hour ago by Sparkles

You didn't get fined what you did was pay the fine for someone's failure to comply with the law and they threatened you with deportation and that's extortion and extortion is illegal. 

[law ling]

1 hour ago, Jumbo1968 said:

I was told by Jomtien if on a Retirement Visa reporting wasn’t necessary.

Maybe you're right for "Retirement Visa", but that didn't apply to my "non imm OA" visa - a few weeks ago my landlady was fined at Jomtien for late reporting me (two days late).

Edited August 17, 2019 by law ling

[pookondee]

15 hours ago, plachon said:

Watching the VDO and how the chief of Police was unable or unwilling to answer even the most simplest of questions (e.g. what has changed now with regards to enforcing this law?) and his sidekicks in and out of uniform were similarly unable to reasonably address the actual content of questions put to them, but brushed aside serious questions with banal comments and irrelevancies, reminded me very much of scenes from a Dostoyevsky or Kafka novel. Thailand was always a labyrinthine bureaucratic place, filled withe outdated and irrelevant laws that were spottily applied at best, but occasionally the political dinosaurs would emerge from their and insist they were executed to the letter of the law and without consideration of fit for purposeness. But it seems the present regime is taking this old rule of thumb to a whole new level of Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole ridiculousness and will certainly be shooting that poor old Siamese elephant in its foot as a result. ????

The way many guys are talking here its obvious you all havent considered the language barrier might have come into it?

 

The head guy didnt know the English word for document, (not that he should be expected to)

so im pretty sure he wouldnt have much idea what words such as "cumbersome" meant and the way people were wording stuff in rather complex English.

 

He was probably catching a bit of it, but all in all id say all he would have comprehended from those questions was:

 "whine, winge, moan"...rinse and repeat.

and not much else, and then finally thinking:

"how dare they.."

 

And to make matters worse a lady actually starts asking the general something in Thai and the speaker quickly cuts her off with

"this is an English forum.."

 

Now i ask you, how idiotic is that?

They had the chance to ask/explain something in the language he could actually understand fully and the guy cuts her off!!

 

 

 

 

[brianthainess]

18 hours ago, Zack61 said:

What does one do when they take a night train or bus somewhere?

Ah now i know why the bus drivers run away if there is an incident.

[user7969876]

I understand the requirement to complete a TM 30 by the house owner. 
Who completes if the land is leased and I have built a house on it? I am on a retirement extension.
The Tabian Rot (blue book) does not have my name on it only the owner of the land.

Regards

[FarFlungFalang]

2 minutes ago, Pookaow said:

I understand the requirement to complete a TM 30 by the house owner. 
Who completes if the land is leased and I have built a house on it? I am on a retirement extension.
The Tabian Rot (blue book) does not have my name on it only the owner of the land.

Regards

I think you would be considered the possessor/housemaster you would be the one to complete the TM30.

[Andrew Dwyer]

The way many guys are talking here its obvious you all havent considered the language barrier might have come into it?
 
The head guy didnt know the English word for document, (not that he should be expected to)
so im pretty sure he wouldnt have much idea what words such as "cumbersome" meant and the way people were wording stuff in rather complex English.
 
He was probably catching a bit of it, but all in all id say all he would have comprehended from those questions was:
 "whine, winge, moan"...rinse and repeat.
and not much else, and then finally thinking:
"how dare they.."
 
And to make matters worse a lady actually starts asking the general something in Thai and the speaker quickly cuts her off with
"this is an English forum.."
 
Now i ask you, how idiotic is that?
They had the chance to ask/explain something in the language he could actually understand fully and the guy cuts her off!!
 
 
 
 

Yes exactly.

People are dissing the Thai guests for not answering the questions !! but IMO they are not understanding what they are being asked !! and to save face are answering what they think the question might be !!

A simple Thai/English translation should have been allowed !!

What did they achieve here ??

Pissed the General off so now he will dig his heels in further. !!

A great opportunity missed I feel .

[sawadeeken]

20 hours ago, Jonathan Fairfield said:

 

Last week I was told that the idea of TM30 originates from Russia. They have or had something very similar which required foreigners to report whenever they stayed somewhere other than their registered address overnight. 

Yes...........Thailand is getting to be what "Communist Russia" was 20 - 30 years ago............ Does that give yau any clue about the present THAI Gov't and where 'IT' wants to take you?????

[Jimdandy]

My one question is, are there non-English speaking expat communities, i.e. from South America, Japan, South Korea and other locations who will also be affected? Has anyone reached out to them to collaborate and get their feelings about the TM30?

[AjarnMartin]

Like watching paint dry... An inordinate time with everybody pussyfooting around the main issues so as not to upset ‘our hosts’. Why did nobody just ask the question: If the law of Thailand is so paramount as one speaker intimated, why is it that every individual branch of Thai Immigration is allowed to interpret it in as many different ways? It’s a shambles!!! Thai Immigration have no intention of ‘making it easier’.

[DrTuner]

If anybody wants to make any impact, share the video to anywhere you can, especially foreign media. Only thing making Thais act is bad publicity and losing face. High chance of it backfiring though.

[FarFlungFalang]

8 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

If anybody wants to make any impact, share the video to anywhere you can, especially foreign media. Only thing making Thais act is bad publicity and losing face. High chance of it backfiring though.

It's a bit long.Maybe an edited version would be better for sharing.

[Jumbo1968]

15 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

If anybody wants to make any impact, share the video to anywhere you can, especially foreign media. Only thing making Thais act is bad publicity and losing face. High chance of it backfiring though.

Do you think any foreign media is going to be interested about a few Expats who don’t want too adhere too the rules and regulations albeit inconsistent of a country they choose too live in.

its not as if they are locking people up, torturing them and taking any of their rights away. 

 

Loads of places where people get locked up and what do their governments do nowt, just ask the Brit fella whose wife is locked up in Iran accused of spying. The U.K. government haven’t exactly bent over backwards to try and secure her release.

 

[rolfwipi]

How a Thai Landlord knows, that a foreigner, for which he has submitted a TM30 for 30 days for his property at the Thai Immigration, is leaving the province for another province during these 30 days and comes back within this period to report him again at the Thai Immigration?

[DrTuner]

7 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

Do you think any foreign media is going to be interested about a few Expats who don’t want too adhere too the rules and regulations albeit inconsistent of a country they choose too live in.

Even a little interest works, Thainess is a character flaw and face can easily be exploited. As it should since it's the most idiotic plague a culture can have.

[rolfwipi]

Good gays in, bad guys out! It can never be the duty of a Landlord to check if a foreigner to whom he is renting is a good or a bad guy. This is clearly the task of the Thai Immigration at Thai Airports or at every customs.

[Brigand]

Funny, the guy in the green shirt on the panel far left is drinking a beer by the look of it (about 10 minutes in) ... ha ha. Knock a few down and let it rip man!

[rolfwipi]

Why Thai Immigration makes every thing so compliated? Why they request to remit to them via the application every property a Landlord is renting out if this Landlord is renting out his properties for many years and has always remitted TM30 form for many years to the local Thai Immigration? Is the Thai Immigration not able to take over all these properties? This would save a lot of time for the Thai Immigration to create passwords. To create a password for an application takes only about a few minutes and not 7 days!

[FarFlungFalang]

24 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

its not as if they are locking people up, torturing them and taking any of their rights away. 

People being told if they don't pay somebody else's fine for non compliance they will be refused permission to stay in Thailand which is a clear deprivation of rights it's also called extortion!

[user7969876]

Thanks FarFlungFalang after some consideration I agree. The concept of the "possessor" is new but makes sense.

 

[Jip99]

Just now, FarFlungFalang said:

People being told if they don't pay somebody else's fine for non compliance they will be refused permission to stay in Thailand which is a clear deprivation of rights it's also called extortion!

 

 

You can keep banging on about it but immigration officers hold all the cards. T. I. T. - live with it or find an alternative.

 

 

You could always try a call to 1155............................................ I wish you well with that one.

[Sparkles]

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

You didn't get fined what you did was pay the fine for someone's failure to comply with the law and they threatened you with deportation and that's extortion and extortion is illegal. 

No,no,no If I am leaving the country its my obligation to report within 24 hrs and I didn't get threatened with extortion....lets keep it factual.I don't rent I have lived with my Thai wife in the same house for 12 yrs on a retirement visa.My obligation but the rule was still in the vault unseen when I returned

[ThaiLawOnline]

4 hours ago, jackdd said:

 

1.Richard Barrow and Sebastian Brousseau like to bring up immigration act section 37 (4) many times, but it looks like they don't even understand it. Especially from a lawyer you would expect them to read the law first. Tourists as well as people on businness and education visas (and some other groups as well) are exempt from this section.

People on retirement and marriage visas are not exempt, but this most likely just is the case because when they introduced these visa types they forgot that there is section 37 (3) and (4), because it was not enforced. And they forgot to make these new visas exempt as well. But this could easily be changed, all it needs is a ministerial order. Currently it's not relevant anyway, because this law is just not enforced.

 

(...)

2. At 1:26:50 Sebastian actually brings up an interesting question for the IO, but instead of letting the IO answer, Chris Larking jumps in and helps the IO to avoid this critical question.

(...)

3. Why did nobody jump in and translated the questions for them?

 

1. Reality is 37(4) is not enforced and they do not want to enforce it. And they recently enforced 38 but without any reasons. (I understand hotels were doing it before). That's not a joke that's called ARBITRARY. You ask to read the law, read section 4 about what defines an alien....and tourists, for example, wouldn't be excluded.

 

2. I was more or less stopped twice but I wanted to still being polite and I followed the moderator. The law is the law is NOT the answer. Many laws in Thailand are not enforced. ANY LAWYER will tell you that's a kind of LAWLESS country. The law change from a place to another. I don't know you JackDD but from someone who lives in Thailand and seems to be an expert you should know that. I work with labour department, with amphurs, with DBD, with land departments and it is always according to what they want.

 

3. Immigration replied at last time that they were coming and they knew it was an English audience. The FCC was not ready for translation. The young Thai officer understood VERY WELL English but was avoiding questions. The general was understanding properly, not perfectly. I talked to him after the panel and can confirm. The lady with a blue shirt translating sometimes is actually my girlfriend who offered her help voluntarily because nobody could do it. But that was at last minute.

 

At one point, the young army officer asked the general in Thai with an expression in Thai meaning "should I cut it directly and say it won't change". (My girlfriend beside heard it in Thai and told me the next day when we watched the video) and the general said no. He said he would explain it more nicely, like making us believe they will listen to us. That sums up quite well the meeting.

 

These are not excuses but or justifications but facts. I can not backup what my gf heard as she was in the corner with the young officer and only her was there. But I have no reason to disbelief her.

 

 

[ThaiLawOnline]

4 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Would be interesting if there were data available.

 

Of course some will proclaim the numbers are incorrect, if they are not the ones they believe they should be. 

======

On July 1^st, 2019 an article was published showing that Scandinavian people are moving out of Thailand. It is the first decline in 12 years and it is estimated that the decline will approach 10% of the Scandinavian expat population.

======

A recent article from Bloomberg, published on 25 July 2019, showed that Thailand’s average growth starting in 1990 declined from 5.3% to 4.3% in the middle of the 1990’s. And it is expected to decline even further to 3.3% in 2019. 

 

The fertility rate in Thailand has plunged from 6.6% to 2.2%. The population of Thailand is aging rapidly.  And over the last 12 years, the cost of healthcare has increased by 12%. All these numbers are taken from the Bloomberg article.

 

One potential source of relief explained in the article is the openmindness of Thailand to immigrants. Immigration could help Thailand to reverse some of these trends. 

===

 

In 2014, research conducted by the University of Khon Kaen estimated that Thai people married to foreigners were bringing in 9 BILLION baht per year. This amount largely contributed to a massive boom for the local economies in Isaan. The average foreigner was providing 9,600 baht per month to their Thai family and that 9 billion baht helped to create nearly 750,000 jobs in the area. In words, close to a million jobs for Thai citizens in Isaan can be attributed to the expat community.

 

====

 

There are about 3.9 foreigners in Thailand, which 3 million are from Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar. (Maybe it changed a little, I saw these numbers from a UN document and told by a high immigration officer, stating that the problems was the Cambodian, Burmese and Laotian.)

 

Thailand need immigrants. I love this country but TM30 is not the solution. It's shot in the foot...

 

[ThaiLawOnline]

2 hours ago, DrTuner said:

If anybody wants to make any impact, share the video to anywhere you can, especially foreign media. Only thing making Thais act is bad publicity and losing face. High chance of it backfiring though.

 

You would need Thai subtitles and share it in the Thai medias. I will ask FCC.

[jackdd]

22 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

You ask to read the law, read section 4 about what defines an alien....and tourists, for example, wouldn't be excluded.

http://www.krisdika.go.th/librarian/get?sysid=318871&ext=htm

These people are exempt from immigration act sections 37 (3) and (4), including tourists, people on business and education visas and several more:

Quote

๕.๑ การปฏิบัติหน้าที่ทางทูต หรือกงสุล
๕.๒ การปฏิบัติหน้าที่ทางราชการ
๕.๓ การท่องเที่ยว
๕.๔ การเล่นกีฬา
๕.๕ ธุรกิจ
๕.๖ การลงทุนที่ได้รับความเห็นชอบจากกระทรวงทบวงกรมที่เกี่ยวข้อง
๕.๗ การลงทุนหรือการอื่นที่เกี่ยวกับการลงทุนภายใต้บังคับกฎหมายว่าด้วยการส่งเสริมการลงทุน
๕.๘ การเดินทางผ่านราชอาณาจักร
๕.๙ การเป็นผู้ควบคุมพาหนะ หรือคนประจำพาหนะที่เข้ามายังท่าสถานี หรือท้องที่ในราชอาณาจักร
๕.๑๐ การศึกษาหรือดูงาน
๕.๑๑ การค้นคว้าทางวิทยาศาสตร์ หรือฝึกสอนในสถาบันการค้นคว้า หรือสถาบันการศึกษาในราชอาณาจักร
๕.๑๒ การปฏิบัติงานด้านช่างฝีมือหรือผู้เชี่ยวชาญ

Edited August 17, 2019 by jackdd

[lamyai3]

4 hours ago, pookondee said:

And to make matters worse a lady actually starts asking the general something in Thai and the speaker quickly cuts her off with

"this is an English forum.."

 

Now i ask you, how idiotic is that?

They had the chance to ask/explain something in the language he could actually understand fully and the guy cuts her off!!

I agree, this was a bit heavy handed, as she was making an important point quite clearly. However, he actually was one of the most effective speakers there when it came down to doubling down on the immigration representatives, and some of the most pressing questions came from him.