Farmers are reluctant to stop using toxic weed killers

[canuckamuck]

2 minutes ago, drtreelove said:

I understand. My comments are not personal, just my opinion for general consideration.  I figure others are reading who have similar issues.

 

It's a common mistake to wait until something is a big problem, before taking action. You wouldn't believe some of the advanced plant problems that I get called for, when I know they were several years in the making, and no one noticed until its too late for effective treatment. 

 

Its an important discipline worth cultivating for us to think preventively, monitor regularly and act with early intervention. I loved the daily early morning ritual walks I would take through our orchards and garden, coffee in hand, dog and cat following with their own inspections, looking at tree foliage, new growth or die-back, pest or disease developments, fence breaches, weed growth, soil moisture, stick in the other hand knocking off termite mud tubes on mango tree trunks, and planning the daily management priorities.  

Your comments are always appreciated. You have taught me a few things over the years.

[Chazar]

On 8/17/2019 at 10:27 AM, rooster59 said:

shortage of labour

This is the real  problem, many on TV seem to think Thais  will  pull weeds ( wrong)  that  Burmese  will  pull weeds ( wrong) only want factory  work  now  and that theres a  whole  load  of people  just waiting to  pull weeds  (wrong), ths is  usually  followed  by "you dont pay em enough" but again they have no idea as 500 a  day still has  no interest.

[Chazar]

9 hours ago, drtreelove said:

More is not better.

Unless  youre  Thai then more is  better, half  the problem round here is  just that and again like you mention they wait until weeds  are 1m +  tall.

[farmerjo]

10 hours ago, drtreelove said:

I don't advocate the use of glyphosate products, but within an intelligent IVM program (Integrated Vegetation Management) it has been an important tool.  There is nothing like it for economical weed control when other methods and materials have been considered. There are of course downside effects, but much of that comes from uninformed and inappropriate use.  Here are some of my observations:

 

Regarding your 2m+ grass, it didn't just appear at 2m height.  There was an immature stage that for some reason you missed, and that would have been the time to control it, during the early growth stage. During emergence and early vegetative growth, grasses are easiest to kill and require much, much less herbicide volume to do it.  A fine spray that covers the foliage and doesn't drench the soil will affect the grass and not cause excessive environmental exposure and soil chemistry effects. 

 

Glyphosate is a post-emergent contact and systemic herbicide. It is sprayed on the green foliage and is taken in and translocated into the root system. It is not a pre-emergent and does nothing to prevent seeds from sprouting, so spraying it on bare soil is a waste. You cannot kill the roots of weeds by spraying it on the soil. Soil drenching is useless and creates excessive environmental contamination. If you recognize this fact then the amount of herbicide that you need to use will be reduced considerably. 

 

Another important consideration is the mixing rate. To kill young grasses (and some broadleaf weeds) use the recommended label mixing rate, it works. A 2% solution is all you need for most grass applications. If you are starting with a concentrate that is 48% active ingredient of glyphosate, that's 2.5 oz of the concentrate per gallon of water (12.5 oz per 5 gallons, =  370 ml per 20 liters of water). check my math.  More is not better. 

 

Improve effectiveness by adding ammonium sulfate 21-0-0 to the water and agitate before adding the glyphosate concentrate. 

"6 pounds per 100 gallons of spray mixture (lbs/100 gal)  If water hardness is greater than 1600 ppm apply minimum of 8.5 to 17 lbs/100 gal."

 

Cover up, to avoid personal exposure. Standard pesticide applicator PPEs (personal protective equipment) is rubber boots and socks, long pants, long sleeve shirt, chemical resistant gloves, eye protection.  A full face shield is optional. If the applicator is out there spraying with shorts, tank top and flip flops, then he/she is asking for unnecessary exposure. If the wife and kids are tagging along behind then he is totally irresponsible.  Yeah its hot, but the choice of protection or exposure is yours. 

 

Don't be a sucker for the unreasonable hype created by the class action personal injury attorneys who are after the big bucks that come from the bandwagon protest mentality. Know what you are working with and follow sensible, safe and effective use of pesticides. It is possible to reduce or eliminate personal and environmental exposure.  Do your homework and be responsible.  Don't drink or get high or angry or otherwise compromise your judgement and accuracy while mixing and applying pesticides. If you are not comfortable with it, don't use it. 

 

IVM has options for weed control, consider mechanical control, planting of competing cover crops, etc. Don't always reach for the herbicides before considering other options. Don

 

 

Great post.

I just hope the government doesn't fall to peer pressure of the uninformed minority groups.

No-till farming which i practise on 3/4's of my land is pretty much as natural as you can get farming a range of crops but without that roundup alternative it is dead in the water as even here in the tropics cover crops would still need to be terminated.

 

 

 

 

  

[Chazar]

2 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

Great post.

I just hope the government doesn't fall to peer pressure of the uninformed minority groups.

No-till farming which i practise on 3/4's of my land is pretty much as natural as you can get farming a range of crops but without that roundup alternative it is dead in the water as even here in the tropics cover crops would still need to be terminated.

 

 

 

 

  

This  is  like how all laws  get enacted the majority of idiots spraying stuff too strong at the wrong times, weeds  to  big etc. spoil it for those who know how to use it responsibly

[farmerjo]

3 minutes ago, Chazar said:

This  is  like how all laws  get enacted the majority of idiots spraying stuff too strong at the wrong times, weeds  to  big etc. spoil it for those who know how to use it responsibly

Agreed,you can put that straight back onto government departments.

I probably noticed spraying starting to take off here in my area when the government decided to introduce the minimum 300 baht/day labour cost and motorised backpacks came on the market so it was a no brainer when looking at input costs of the crop.

And only now are they talking about no training accreditation,no chemicals usage.

[seajae]

On 9/29/2019 at 5:31 PM, canuckamuck said:

 I did my best to wean us off of glyphosate this year. It went really well until August and we had an explosion of some aggressive very tall (2m+) grass. We know this grass and there really is only one answer for it, to spray it. What will we do next year. I would like to store away some glyphosate, but I also heard rumors that they will be fining people who are caught with it.

It would be nice to know, what's coming down. We are super responsible with the spraying, even using very small sprayers and spot spraying only the grass and leaving some other weeds. We actually only try to remove about 4 main nuisance weeds, and we allow all of the others alone. Of course it depends what you grow, other people couldn't do this.

I use both weed killers(paraquat, glysophate) and alternate them so weeds do not get used to them, I only spray a small area around each tree(and around our fence lines as none of the neighbours do anything to control weeds on their land, especially the creeper vines that can strangle our trees) and only do it maybe every 8 weeks or more as needed, a bottle of each lasts me well over a year,. I hope that before too long I can stop spraying once I have eliminated the majority of weeds around our trees and fence lines but have already bought another bottle of each before the ban kicks in. I cant pull weeds due to physical problems and cant get any workers willing to do it either, with over 600 trees it is a big job. We have been active in trying to reduce the need to spray by digging/turning the soil around the trees out to around 40cm all around from the trunks and using coir chips over this area, hopefully it will weaken any weeds(making pulling possible) and slow them down or even stop them. Until it does I will continue to spray as needed, as stated above some months the weeds just go crazy but a lot is due to the fact the neighbouring land owners do nothing about their weeds so we suffer due to their lack of work. We have our land areas(1 x 1 rai & 2  x 1/2 rai) brush cut at least every 3 to 4 weeks, this helps control the weed growth but as mentioned with the neighbours totally ignoring the weeds/creepers on their land it makes it a lot harder for us. Hopefully we can get the area around the trees to almost no weeds and then I can use alternative methods but until then I have no real choice other than these 2 sprays unless they come up with an alternate weed killer that is a lot safer

[IsaanAussie]

The Agriculture Department review has concluded. Voted 9-0 to ban the three chemicals. As we all know nothing here is over until it is over, but this looks a done deal.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Rimmer
BKK Post link removed

[khwaibah]

Panel bans three controversial herbicides effective December 1

• October 7, 2019
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The four-party working committee, set up at the order of Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha, agreed unanimously today to ban the production, import, sale and use of paraquat glyphosate and chlorpyrifos as of December 1^st as a New Year’s gift for the Thai people.

Deputy Agriculture Minister Mananya Thaiseth, who chairs the ad hoc committee, said today that the panel’s decision will be submitted to the Prime Minister and the National Hazardous Substances Committee (NSHC) for consideration.

The NSHC originally scheduled a meeting on October 27^th to consider whether to ban the chemicals or to stick to its earlier decision to just restrict their use.  Ms. Mananya said, however, that the committee might have to bring the meeting forward as her panel has already made its decision.

Regarding the meeting of the NHSC, which was usually held behind closed doors, Ms. Mananya said that she didn’t mind if some committee members choose to cast the votes in secret, the representatives of the Agriculture, Industry and Public Health ministries in the committee will vote openly.

She insisted that the Agriculture Technique Department already has information about alternative chemicals, to replace the three toxic substances, as well as agricultural techniques which do not rely on them.

As for other farm chemicals, which are less toxic by comparison, the deputy agriculture minister said that they will also be banned in due course.

“The committee’s resolution is regarded as a New Year’s gift for the Thai people nation-wide.  So after December 1^st, Thai people can eat vegetables which are safe and can breathe clean air,” said Ms. Mananya, as she committed to stand by any officials who might be sued for their support of the complete ban.

•  

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/panel-bans-three-controversial-herbicides-effective-december-1/

[cooked]

I have to add a "Meanwhile"  to this subject.

MEANWHILE... many more millions are having their health damaged and are suffering early death due to malnourishment. I don't mean due to hunger, although getting rid of Glyphosate (if they do ever manage to do that) WILL just raise the price of many vegetables. These are well established facts that are carefully ignored by Big AGRO who are at the same time trying to get us to eat less meat even though it has been the most important part of our diet for many thousands of years.

[inThailand]

1 hour ago, IsaanAussie said:

The Agriculture Department review has concluded. Voted 9-0 to ban the three chemicals. As we all know nothing here is over until it is over, but this looks a done deal.

 

 

A ban or law means nothing here, for enforcement is nonexistent. It will be poisoning as usual.

[farmerjo]

Looks like one sided reporting to get the ill informed in their camp to me.

There is no mention of the apparent alternative that takes longer to work.

The farmers should be given the decency to trial the "unknown" product to see how it affects their program.

Also that committee has stated they will not allow alternate products to be imported.

That seems a little strange to me.

Also if that committee is already stating their ready for any legal disputes,it tells me they haven't thought any of their decisions through.

Education and quality control doesn't get your name up in the lights like a let's ban headline.

 

 

 

[IsaanAussie]

I was pleasantly surprised that the committee has come to a quick resolution. The current products are market leaders because they are very effective. As for alternatives I don't see that as the governments job to specify. I read the press differently perhaps, but take them to mean alternatives will be allowed if they pass whatever testing is required. What I have not seen is any reference to such a test regime. 

This is the issue for me. Are there any chemical alternatives currently on the market? Or are we to have no alternative than organic farming labour intensive techniques? 

[farmerjo]

People may asked why i'm against the ban of roundup.

I have a tractor,i have many implements to work the soil and the time.

So what's the problem,why do i need the chemical.

I would say,input costs,soil type(wanting living soils),seasonal conditions and against burning every year.

The only farmers who will win out of the ban will be the palm oil growers.

 

 

 

 

  

[CLW]

I have to add a "Meanwhile"  to this subject.
MEANWHILE... many more millions are having their health damaged and are suffering early death due to malnourishment. I don't mean due to hunger, although getting rid of Glyphosate (if they do ever manage to do that) WILL just raise the price of many vegetables. These are well established facts that are carefully ignored by Big AGRO who are at the same time trying to get us to eat less meat even though it has been the most important part of our diet for many thousands of years.

Glyphosate hardly used in vegetable farming so I would say your fear isn't justified.
What could be the result?
More burning in the mountains to clear hills for corn?
Thai conglomerates shifting cultivation of sugarcane and corn to neighbouring countries, which just shifts the problem of pesticides use and eventually more burning, which smoke sooner or later reaches Thailand?
More toxic herbicides in rice farming, where Thailand has been overtaken in yield per area from all other Asian countries since decades due to their inefficient farming methods and I blame also the inactive government for that.
Ever been to Vietnam and China with really sophisticated rice irrigation channels not to mention Japan where they perfected this art.

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[CLW]

People may asked why i'm against the ban of roundup.
I have a tractor,i have many implements to work the soil and the time.
So what's the problem,why do i need the chemical.
I would say,input costs,soil type(wanting living soils),seasonal conditions and against burning every year.
The only farmers who will win out of the ban will be the palm oil growers.
 
 
 
 
  

A few idiot farmers have spoilt the soup for everyone here with their inappropriate use of those chemicals, especially glyphosate (the two other I think are relics and not needed anymore).

Some time ago here or in another topic I was talking about the educated western or probably even Thai farmer who use Glyphosate according to the indicated applications and dosage, then there will be no harm to the environment.

For example KS or FJ wrote they are using green manure, mulching / no till and minimal glyphosate to kill the cover crop.
I would say that is totally okay and there will be no glyphosate in the soil, groundwater or crops.

But then you have those other people who are thinking lot helps a lot or spraying glyphosate on bare soil, runoff land or other not permitted applications.

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[cooked]

1 hour ago, CLW said:

Glyphosate hardly used in vegetable farming so I would say your fear isn't justified.
What could be the result?
More burning in the mountains to clear hills for corn?
Thai conglomerates shifting cultivation of sugarcane and corn to neighbouring countries, which just shifts the problem of pesticides use and eventually more burning, which smoke sooner or later reaches Thailand?
More toxic herbicides in rice farming, where Thailand has been overtaken in yield per area from all other Asian countries since decades due to their inefficient farming methods and I blame also the inactive government for that.
Ever been to Vietnam and China with really sophisticated rice irrigation channels not to mention Japan where they perfected this art.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

Well that's me put in my place.

Glyphosat does indeed have an important place in vegetable farming.

Ever been to Isaan? It's FLAT. 

This doesn't change the fact that vegetables WILL get more expensive if Glyph can't be used. In Europe they reckon with up to 25% for some crops.

And oh -- it is hardly toxic at all properly used but don't let that interfere with your argument.

[farmerjo]

https://medium.com/@BlakeGossard/what-would-happen-if-we-banned-roundup-b4875d22462a

Take out the GMO part which does not pertain to Thailand and i thought this was a good article for people to understand what will happen to farmers on a larger scale. 

[CLW]

Well that's me put in my place.
Glyphosat does indeed have an important place in vegetable farming.
Ever been to Isaan? It's FLAT. 
This doesn't change the fact that vegetables WILL get more expensive if Glyph can't be used. In Europe they reckon with up to 25% for some crops.
And oh -- it is hardly toxic at all properly used but don't let that interfere with your argument.

As I suggest, Glyphosate hardly used for vegetables. I can't upload the graph but here is the according link.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate

From the German Wikipedia:
Glyphosate is a non-selective systemic broad spectrum herbicide (broad spectrum or total herbicide) that is absorbed through any green part of plants. Glyphosate is used in agriculture against monocotyledonous and dicotyledonous weeds in agriculture, vineyards and orchards, in the cultivation of ornamental plants, on meadows, pastures and lawns as well as in the forest.

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[IsaanAussie]

The chemical ban was reported again today in "that other paper". Seems all sides are digging in and calls have been made for the PM to direct the ban be imposed regardless. It appears the PM supports a transition to better solutions. To quote:

 

"Gen Prayut said he has always made it clear that he believes the use of the three chemicals must be reduced and eventually removed from the market. Today, the government is still preparing for the ban. It is up to the NHSC to devise measures to accommodate the ban of paraquat, glyphosate and chlorpyrifos, according to Gen Prayut."

[CLW]

The chemical ban was reported again today in "that other paper". Seems all sides are digging in and calls have been made for the PM to direct the ban be imposed regardless. It appears the PM supports a transition to better solutions. To quote:
 
"Gen Prayut said he has always made it clear that he believes the use of the three chemicals must be reduced and eventually removed from the market. Today, the government is still preparing for the ban. It is up to the NHSC to devise measures to accommodate the ban of paraquat, glyphosate and chlorpyrifos, according to Gen Prayut."

Just today I was reading about strict measures not a total ban?

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[CLW]

https://naturepest.com/articles/top-30-natural-weed-killer-alternatives-glyphosate-roundup-omri-organic-certified/

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[farmerjo]

There's something fishy going on.

A lot of sweeteners being offered by the government to the agri fields today.

Palm got there b10 although funny the finance ministry is being asked to pay for it.

Rubber subsides today

3.1 billion on <deleted> today which most involves water usage when its been a drought.

Like grab a brain,grow more corn when mr fall army worm has just arrived in town.

Also do people really think the corn hybrid seed producers will stick around and spend money on R&D if they can't sell other products in the market place.

Next thing after banning the chemicals,the climate change people who go hand in hand will be screaming blue murder with the increased c02 emissions put out by farmers,not to mention the air pollution from burning.Rant over.

Mr PM is out of town for tuesdays meeting but i hope the ban is phased out and not sudden after the meeting. 

[CLW]

Just today I was reading about strict measures not a total ban?

 

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This is the news to the suggested stricter measures.

 

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1128556-strict-measures-on-using-three-toxic-pesticides-take-effect-on-oct-20/&share_tid=1128556&share_fid=29570&share_type=t

 

Strict measures on using three toxic pesticides take effect on Oct 20

 

In theory a very good idea and well thought out but knowing Thailand. Nah. Doesn't work here...

 

Same as traffic law enforcement or helmet law.

 

Again, I feel sorry for the few farmers who applied these chemicals according to the instructions from the manufacturer.

 

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[IsaanAussie]

I agree. A phased change is the only sensible way to go. Politicians are the same globally ensuring re-election is of importance to them, but I admire the Thai speed in this process compared with the all talk do nothing we get from Canberra. 

These chemicals aren't something new here or elsewhere and most of the "evidence" is based more on vested interest than scientific study. I am not a supporter of continuing the use of these products but recognise they work! 

Lets hope that a manufacturer of a "safe" alternative stands up and offers similar performance and cost.

[IsaanAussie]

https://ocp.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/SLASHER-Flyer-plus-QA.pdf

 

This is a possible alternative herbicide approved for organic use in Australia. Sounds interesting

[farmerjo]

48 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

https://ocp.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/SLASHER-Flyer-plus-QA.pdf

 

This is a possible alternative herbicide approved for organic use in Australia. Sounds interesting

Thanks for bringing on board,is it registered to use here.

It maybe ok in conjuction with tillage.

My initial thoughts-

Multiple follow up sprays,it belongs to the corrosive family of acids.

Here is one review. 

 

Slasher Organic Weedkiller Reviews - ProductReview.com.au.html

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, farmerjo said:

Thanks for bringing on board,is it registered to use here.

It maybe ok in conjuction with tillage.

My initial thoughts-

Multiple follow up sprays,it belongs to the corrosive family of acids.

Here is one review. 

 

Slasher Organic Weedkiller Reviews - ProductReview.com.au.html 349.05 kB · 1 download

Relatively new on the market in Oz so I doubt here yet. I have asked them if at least some trials are possible. We will see if they are interested. Quick numbers based on their retail pricing would be about 300 baht per rai plus sprayer cost. So expensive against Roundup on face value.

[farmerjo]

26 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

Relatively new on the market in Oz so I doubt here yet. I have asked them if at least some trials are possible. We will see if they are interested. Quick numbers based on their retail pricing would be about 300 baht per rai plus sprayer cost. So expensive against Roundup on face value.

300 baht sounds better,i worked it out for my sprayer at 1500 baht/rai

 

It says mix 5-7 litres with 100 litres of water,i use 60 litres of water per rai through my sprayer.$15 for 1 litre of concentrate,

That would be for the 1st pass and it's likely 3 passes will have to be made.

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by farmerjo
sorry for late edit.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, farmerjo said:

300 baht sounds better,i worked it out for my sprayer at 1500 baht/rai

As I said rough numbers. I am assuming using the same gear and technique as usual, hence the same total volume sprayed. Also assuming the $9-10 per litre commercial "retail" price if buying in 1000 litre IBC's. 

So a healthy amount of chalk and cheese difference in our numbers.