Who's entitled to our the House if my Thai Wife Dies?

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Ufustruct not available to farangs in Pattaya.

Did you hear this direct from senior officers at the Pattaya LTO or is it Pattaya gossip?

 

This came up here on TV maybe 2 years ago.

 

Since then my Thai son asked his lawyer to prepare a usufruct document to be added to his land title here in Chiang Mai (with my name mentioned in the usufruct document).

 

The lawyer instantly said that he wasn't highly knowledgeable about the subject and made an appointment to go to CM LTO and get direct advice / details about the subject. My son went with him. And before they went I mentioned there were supposed statements by senior LTO officers in several locations that usufruct is not legal / has never been legal. and they would not accept it.

 

The CM LTO senior officer indicated that it's clearly documented in Thai national law for many decades, totally legal and he said law applies to all of Thailand and there is no suggestion of being accepted / not accepted by location. And he mentioned that LTO officers cannot change the said law and cannot 'not accept' it in their location. He shared that it's used quite frequently by Thai people all over the country and there is no suggestion or reason whatever that it should be cancelled or changed. The CM senior LTO officer also mentioned he's aware that a few times people have tried to challenge it, like many things, but challenges re usufruct absolutely not accepted by the courts.  And he gave our lawyer a copy of the actual laws.

 

Our lawyer went back to the CM LTO the next day and all done in 10 minutes. 100Baht LTO fee.

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by scorecard

[bert bloggs]

Our son would own it , so it would never be a problem for me ,but i am pretty sure i will go before here ,i do hope so .

[DannyCarlton]

17 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Did you hear this direct from senior officers at the Pattaya LTO or is it Pattaya gossip?

 

This came up here on TV maybe 2 years ago.

 

Since then my Thai son asked his lawyer to prepare a usufruct document to be added to his land title here in Chiang Mai (with my name mentioned in the usufruct document).

 

The lawyer instantly said that he wasn't highly knowledgeable about the subject and made an appointment to go to CM LTO and get direct advice / details about the subject. My son went with him. And before they went I mentioned there were supposed statements by senior LTO officers in several locations that usufruct is not legal / has never been legal. and they would not accept it.

 

The CM LTO senior officer indicated that it's clearly documented in Thai national law for many decades, totally legal and he said law applies to all of Thailand and there is no suggestion of being accepted / not accepted by location. And he mentioned that LTO officers cannot change the said law and cannot 'not accept' it in their location. He shared that it's used quite frequently by Thai people all over the country and there is no suggestion or reason whatever that it should be cancelled or changed. The CM senior LTO officer also mentioned he's aware that a few times people have tried to challenge it, like many things, but challenges re usufruct absolutely not accepted by the courts.  And he gave our lawyer a copy of the actual laws.

 

Our lawyer went back to the CM LTO the next day and all done in 10 minutes. 100Baht LTO fee.

 

I spoke to the person dealing with my Chanote and she went over to consult the senior person in the land office. Also spoke with my lawyer.

 

It's been this way for around 2 years now and I don't know anyone else in Pattaya that has been able to obtain a ufustruct in Pattaya in the last 2 years. Do you?

[khunPer]

3 hours ago, khaepmu said:

Our house was built many years ago upcountry. It's quite old now but land value has risen significantly since we built the house 20 years ago. I am semi-retired now and we are both living in the house. She told me no one would bother me if I wanted continue to live there in the event that she passes away before me. I was told (and don't necessarily believe it) that since we are legally married I have a right to live in the house if she should pass before me. But I cannot sell it or leave it to anyone when I die. I am not all that bothered about who gets it when I die. I guess the best thing is to update the will. When I ask my wife who she would like to leave the house to when she dies she seems  totally non committed. ( we have no kids) She said possibly one of her nieces but her relatives all live in other parts of the country and we rarely see them. 

If you wife don't have a last will you are entitled to 50 percent of your wife's estate, i.e. 50 percent of the house, whilst your wife's parent, or other blood siblings, will receive the other 50 percent; according to "Thai Law for Foreigners" page 80. However, if no blood heirs exists the surviving spouse will receive the entire estate.

 

Even relatives might seem without interest, you cannot be sure when it's a matter of money from increased real estate value. Therefore you should have a usufruct servitude or habitation right made...

Quote

The right of habitation concerns only the right to dwell in a house

HABITATION LAWS IN THAILAND

The grantee of the right of habitation does not pay rent to the grantor. If there is rental payment made, the matter becomes a tenancy. A right of habitation may be created for either a specific period of time or for the lifetime of the grantee. In case the rights are granted for a specific time period, the law states that such a period may not exceed 30 years; if a longer period is fixed, it shall be enforceable for only 30 years. The grant may be renewed for a period not exceeding 30 years from the time of renewal. Lastly, the right of habitation is not transferable by way of inheritance.

Source and read more: Samui-for-sale "Habitation Property Rights".

 

As a foreigner cannot own property (land) in Thailand a surviving foreign spouse will be granted a period of 12 month (I believe it is only) to sell any inherited property.

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

3 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Ufustruct not available to farangs in Pattaya.

Here we go again, usufruct is not governed by locations or regions, it's the law of Thailand.  

Usufruct is not granted to foreigners on Kow Samui – rules might be different in different provinces, if the land office don't grant a usufruct, there is no usufruct.

 

Try with a habitation right instead.

[tandor]

4 hours ago, khaepmu said:

Our house was built many years ago upcountry. It's quite old now but land value has risen significantly since we built the house 20 years ago. I am semi-retired now and we are both living in the house. She told me no one would bother me if I wanted continue to live there in the event that she passes away before me. I was told (and don't necessarily believe it) that since we are legally married I have a right to live in the house if she should pass before me. But I cannot sell it or leave it to anyone when I die. I am not all that bothered about who gets it when I die. I guess the best thing is to update the will. When I ask my wife who she would like to leave the house to when she dies she seems  totally non committed. ( we have no kids) She said possibly one of her nieces but her relatives all live in other parts of the country and we rarely see them. 

..greed sure clouds their minds, and they do do some terrible things to shorten the list.

[sirineou]

I don't really know (never had the occasion of first hand experience) but my understanding is that Thailand is a community property country, where:

" Thailand Marital Property. Thailand is what is known in legal terms as a “Community Property” jurisdiction. This means that, in general, all assets acquired by either the man or wife during the marriage are considered to be the property of both partners. "

http://www.thailand-family-law-center.com/thailand-marital-property-law/

So regardless of will, at least half the property value belongs to you. In other words neither you or her can will away something that does not belong to you.

It is my understanding (don't know that for a fact) that in the event of one partners death, the property reverts to the remaining partner. If such partner is not a Thai national and does not have the right to own the land, such person has the right to sell the property with in a year, Such person could in practice sell the property to a corporation , and the corporation lease the property back to him/her.

As I said , this is my understanding, a lawyer should be consulted.

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by sirineou

[LukKrueng]

10 hours ago, khaepmu said:

In the event of my Thai wife's death (we are legally married) I was wondering what I can do with the house. I know I have a legal right to live in the house after her death but who gets it when I pass. I don't think I am allowed to sell it if I don't want to live there and I have been told I have no right to leave it to anyone.  My wife isn't too eager to leave it to anyone in her family (both parents are dead). We have a will but the house isn't included. 

you can inherit tke house (should be included in the will) but you'll have to sell it to a Thai person within 12 months. If she dies and it's not in the will it might be divided between you and other living relatives of her. You don't have the right to live in the house for the rest of your life (you can live there up to 1 year before uppity sell it, after that it's according to any contract you might sign with the new owner)

[The Deerhunter]

5 hours ago, Victornoir said:

Totally wrong.

In Thai law (as elsewhere) a usufruct gives you the right of total occupancy of the premises exactly like a lease. For example, no changes to the premises or the land can be made without your consent.

For Khaepmu, you must go with your wife at the local land office to register a usufruct for life on the house.
provide about 5000b of costs. Contract written immediately on the spot in my own case.

My wife took out a life policy on herself to repay me the money I put into the property (house and farm) so that there would be no place for family to argue or inconvenience me if she died before me (which is unlikely as I am 25 years older.)  Without her there would have been nothing to keep me in the isolated countryside, far away from hospitals and amenable company. Then I could make my own decision as to whether I stayed or moved.  I have always had a great rapport with them but if I felt threatened by, or did not get on with the rellies  I sure would not want to stay.  

[LukKrueng]

10 hours ago, Matzzon said:

The first thing you can check is if the land department will agree to separate the land and the house. If you then put the house in your name, you will have the ownership of the house, and then make a land lease contract between you and your wife for as long as possible that is legal and valid after her death.

Another way would be to sign a , that gives you the right to live in the house as long as oyu live or want to stay, but that no gives you any kind of owners rights.

you cannot separate a house from the land. The land department register land only, not houses (condos go under the condominium act and works differently). house ownership is a misconception of many foreigners.

the longest legal lease on Thailand is 30 years from the date signed, not from any future date (such as from the date the owner dies) and I'm not sure a lease or usufruct between husband and wife is legal at all

[Titan1962]

My wife and I went and had a solicitor draw up a legal document.

Stating that if she dies the house shall be sold and I can retain 50% of the settlement price.

Thats fine by me,her family are not really well off,so the money they get would see them out comfortably for the rest of their lives.

Plus my wife and her family have treated me really well,so it’s only fair. I would get back basically 75% of what I put in.

But I can expect all the unknown cousins and never met before family members having something to say. LOL.

 

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Ufustruct not available to farangs in Pattaya.

Are you meaning that you approached the Pattaya LTO on a specific scenario that you would personally like to see covered by a usufruct, but in fact it's outside of the actual intent in the Thai law of usufruct, therefore the Pattaya LTO said 'cannot'? 

[sirineou]

By the way, If wife dies, not sure i would want to live anymore, but i suspect I would, Probably give the house to her sister, (lovely girl, like a sister or daughter to me) and will go  back home. Nothing in Thailand for me without my wife.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

I spoke to the person dealing with my Chanote and she went over to consult the senior person in the land office. Also spoke with my lawyer.

 

It's been this way for around 2 years now and I don't know anyone else in Pattaya that has been able to obtain a ufustruct in Pattaya in the last 2 years. Do you?

No, but I don't live in Pattaya so why should I know anybody in Pattaya who has or has not been able to record a usufruct in Pattaya?

[amykat]

2 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

I spoke to the person dealing with my Chanote and she went over to consult the senior person in the land office. Also spoke with my lawyer.

 

It's been this way for around 2 years now and I don't know anyone else in Pattaya that has been able to obtain a ufustruct in Pattaya in the last 2 years. Do you?

Maybe you need to pay a special service fee, ie a bribe, this is India!!!  No more TIT ...TII.

 

It is pretty well known, I think, that you can pay this service fee to avoid waiting all day in line, and I have heard of people getting hit up for other things ...I have paid for expediting the line.

[chuck holmes]

11 hours ago, amykat said:

Why do you think you have a legal right to live in the house if your wife dies before you?  What have you written up?  If the house is in her name, and it was left out of any will, then it will pass to her relatives and you have no right to live there.  Unless you did something special ...if so what was it??

You can always marry a sister or another family female.

[thailand49]

Here is the problem many excellent advice!  I'm on the side that after wife dies he has no rights to continue living in the house at least after the legal time frame.

The other problem is going down the Amphur to have something done this I've heard more than once recently that the Amphur pretty much put something on the document that it belongs to him it was a mess trying to get it undone!

Then you got so and so did it but since a Thai lawyer did it and here is what you got translated by another person to you who barely speak any English. Ask yourself!  If you weren't in Thailand and in your home country would any of you go about life this way.

If you want to know the real legal answer get a lawyer who can give you the answer in real English step by step as if you were a 5 year old child.

PM me if you want the reference to one in Bangkok, yes Bangkok but you pretty much can give them a few baht call and get the real answer.

[sirineou]

 

"Distribution in the absence of a will

Thai inheritance laws designate intestate heirs and so long as there is an heir surviving in one of the classes, the heir of the lower class has no entitlement to share in the assets. The one exception is where there is a descendant and a parent in which case they take an equal share (section 1630). If there is more than one heir in any one class, they take an equal share of the entitlement available to that class. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir but their entitlement depends on what other class of statutory heir exists. If there are surviving children of the deceased, the spouse and children take the estate between them. Therefore, if there are three children, then the estate is divided in to four equal shares."

https://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 

"Distribution in the absence of a will

Thai inheritance laws designate intestate heirs and so long as there is an heir surviving in one of the classes, the heir of the lower class has no entitlement to share in the assets. The one exception is where there is a descendant and a parent in which case they take an equal share (section 1630). If there is more than one heir in any one class, they take an equal share of the entitlement available to that class. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir but their entitlement depends on what other class of statutory heir exists. If there are surviving children of the deceased, the spouse and children take the estate between them. Therefore, if there are three children, then the estate is divided in to four equal shares."

https://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html

Remember , Thailand being a community property country, the above applies only to the 50% entitled to your wife, descendants cannot inherit from your wife that which is not hers.  

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Are you meaning that you approached the Pattaya LTO on a specific scenario that you would personally like to see covered by a usufruct, but in fact it's outside of the actual intent in the Thai law of usufruct, therefore the Pattaya LTO said 'cannot'? 

Yes, he actually said "foreigners cannot". OK for Thais.

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, amykat said:

Maybe you need to pay a special service fee, ie a bribe, this is India!!!  No more TIT ...TII.

 

It is pretty well known, I think, that you can pay this service fee to avoid waiting all day in line, and I have heard of people getting hit up for other things ...I have paid for expediting the line.

I initiall offered 5k baht sweetner at the Land Office. Nothing doing.

[Des Pickable]

and if you die the wife takes everything, your family, heirs, etc get absolutely no look in? TiT

[Tuvoc]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Remember , Thailand being a community property country, the above applies only to the 50% entitled to your wife, descendants cannot inherit from your wife that which is not hers.  

 

Lots of conflicting information out there.

 

This site agrees with what you say - the spouse gets 50% before any distribution to relatives:

 

"Before any distribution of the estate to the relatives, half of the estate, known as Sin Somros, will belong to the spouse, if any."

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/thailand-will.php

 

 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

Yes, he actually said "foreigners cannot". OK for Thais.

So now you change the story.

[SoonOh]

Perfect advice 

Get expat lawyer or recommended law firm, and you will loose more. 

Usufruct and/or a Lease agreements are good,

but your ex family will not allow you to enjoy to live the rest of your life at your own home. 

 

 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Tuvoc said:

 

Lots of conflicting information out there.

 

This site agrees with what you say - the spouse gets 50% before any distribution to relatives:

 

"Before any distribution of the estate to the relatives, half of the estate, known as Sin Somros, will belong to the spouse, if any."

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/thailand-will.php

 

 

But is that according to the commercial code of Thailand in a scenario where there is no will, or?

 

[Chazar]

7 hours ago, scorecard said:

100baht a couple of years back at Chiang Mai LTO>

Sucker ????

[Denim]

One thing I've learnt living here for many years is that the only thing set in stone is that nothing is set in stone.

 

Whatever the written law may or may not be there will always be places where it is not applied strictly or correctly and other places where the letter of the law is applied according to local interpretation of it.

 

Very frustrating. Must be pretty grim to know that the relatives are just waiting to descend.

 

[Matzzon]

5 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

you cannot separate a house from the land. The land department register land only, not houses (condos go under the condominium act and works differently). house ownership is a misconception of many foreigners.

the longest legal lease on Thailand is 30 years from the date signed, not from any future date (such as from the date the owner dies) and I'm not sure a lease or usufruct between husband and wife is legal at all

Yes, you can separate a house from the land, and that way get two registretions instead of one. Has been done, but it will not always be able to divide the house and the land.

[LukKrueng]

1 hour ago, Matzzon said:

Yes, you can separate a house from the land, and that way get two registretions instead of one. Has been done, but it will not always be able to divide the house and the land.

so you have a chanot for a house with no land?