Drought-hit Australian towns prepare for 'unimaginable' water crisis

[Expat Brad]

Desalination plants are the go. What ever they use to power them but, theres no money left as the dicks keep throwing it away on foreign aid and welfare!!! 

Cotton farming in Australia is just crazy, it uses a <deleted> load of water and chemicals. It should never have been introduced.

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Expat Brad

[Number 6]

5 hours ago, bristolboy said:

It also has plenty of sunshine. A solar power plant would be much much cheaper. But I guess if you suffer from fossilized thinking, then your go-to would be fossil fuels.

555

 

No way solar is cheaper. Especially in literally a coal town.

 

Debate the ethics, environment or whatever but it all starts with the truth.

 

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, Number 6 said:

555

 

No way solar is cheaper. Especially in literally a coal town.

 

Debate the ethics, environment or whatever but it all starts with the truth.

 

Not only is solar power cheaper than coal, more often than not it's actually cheaper to tear down an operational coal powered plant and build a solar powered plant in its place. And solar power keeps on getting cheaper.

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-and-levelized-cost-of-storage-2018/

And apart from transportation costs, what relevance does the location of a coal mine have to do with its cost? Ya think you can buy gold cheaper at a gold mine? The markets set the price for coal. Not proximity.

 

[bristolboy]

6 hours ago, ndreamer said:

We have one in sydney, that was not even running last time i checked.

to expansive to run apparently, i lived near these rural areas before coming to thailand. 

we had droughts for a long time, there was an area willowtree that completly ran out of water.

these areas use alot of water, farm land but get very little rain they have also seen there population explode due to mining  all around the area. 

Must be a while since you last checked.

Sydney's desalination plant set to expand as drought continues

The New South Wales government has begun preliminary planning to boost output at Sydney’s desalination plant, in a bid to secure the city’s water supply as dam levels continue to drop.

The Kurnell plant, which can currently supply drinking water for up to 1.5 million people in Sydney, returned to operation in January for the second time since 2012.

The water minister, Melinda Pavey, said on Sunday it was playing a significant role in maintaining the city’s water supply during “one of the worst droughts in living memory”.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/aug/11/sydneys-desalination-plant-set-to-expand-as-drought-continues

 

[Number 6]

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Not only is solar power cheaper than coal, more often than not it's actually cheaper to tear down an operational coal powered plant and build a solar powered plant in its place. And solar power keeps on getting cheaper.

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-and-levelized-cost-of-storage-2018/

And apart from transportation costs, what relevance does the location of a coal mine have to do with its cost? Ya think you can buy gold cheaper at a gold mine? The markets set the price for coal. Not proximity.

 

Gold - 1500us oz. Ore can be smelted on site.

Coal - 500us a ton. Shipped around the world in trains and ships.

 

Every person on the planet wants gold. Coal plants want coal.

 

Nice try.

[bristolboy]

24 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

Gold - 1500us oz. Ore can be smelted on site.

Coal - 500us a ton. Shipped around the world in trains and ships.

 

Every person on the planet wants gold. Coal plants want coal.

 

Nice try.

Aren't you aware that the price of coal, like the price of gold, depends on the law of supply and demand? And not on proximity? Why do you think that gold being smelted on site is relevant? What has that got to do with its price?

And it says nothing about the fact that solar power, even solar power plus storage is now beating coal in cost.

[bristolboy]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

5555555555555555555555555555

Saudi has loads of sunshine too, but guess how they power their desalination plants. Hint, it's not solar.

So, because Saudi Arabia does it, that makes it a good idea? Better than solar? Why, exactly?

[Number 6]

49 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Aren't you aware that the price of coal, like the price of gold, depends on the law of supply and demand? And not on proximity? Why do you think that gold being smelted on site is relevant? What has that got to do with its price?

And it says nothing about the fact that solar power, even solar power plus storage is now beating coal in cost.

It's just not. Then there is costs of storage and transmission lines. You're just being ridiculous.Single renewable energy isn't the solution anywhere.

 

Coal is cheap. For this town is assume free and the cost of transportation nothing. Presume it prolly already burns coal for energy. You done flogging that horse?

Edited September 28, 2019 by Number 6

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

It's just not. Then there is costs of storage and transmission lines. You're just being ridiculous.Single renewable energy isn't the solution anywhere.

 

Coal is cheap. For this town is assume free and the cost of transportation nothing. Presume it prolly already burns coal for energy. You done flogging that horse?

Here's what it costs to mine and prepare coal on average:

Australia's average mining and coal preparation costs are US$37.50/t and US$6.00/t respectively.Feb 8, 2018

https://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=2344&context=coal

 

And why would you assume it's free. You speak for the charitable division of the coal mining company?

 

As everyone who follows the developments in energy knows, it's been a while since solar became cheaper - a lot cheaper than coal.  Even in Australia

NEW WIND AND SOLAR NOW AS CHEAP AS EXISTING COAL

Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF) recently produced new research that comes to a stunning conclusion: new renewable energy is now the same cost or cheaper than existing coal power stations in New South Wales and Queensland...

 Due to the continued fall in the cost of wind and solar, as well as the higher international price for black coal, it is now the same cost or cheaper to build a new wind or solar plant in Australia than to continue operating old coal power stations in New South Wales and Queensland.

Or in the words of BNEF’s analyst Ali Ashgar, “This means that it is already cheaper to build a new solar or wind plant than burn export-linked coal in an existing, fully depreciated, coal plant.”

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/new-wind-and-solar-now-as-cheap-as-existing-coal/

 

 

[VincentRJ]

I see no mention of the cost of battery storage in any of these articles you've linked, Bristolboy. Why is that? Don't we all know that solar and wind power is not reliable and that expensive back-up power from fossil fuels or battery storage is always required?

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

I see no mention of the cost of battery storage in any of these articles you've linked, Bristolboy. Why is that? Don't we all know that solar and wind power is not reliable and that expensive back-up power from fossil fuels or battery storage is always required?

CSIRO/AEMO study says wind, solar and storage clearly cheaper than coal

 

Australia’s leading scientific research group and the country’s energy market operator have released a benchmark study that shows the cost of new wind and solar – even with hours of storage – is “unequivocally” lower than the cost of new coal generation.

The joint study – GenCost 2018 – by the CSIRO and AEMO shows that the levellised cost of energy (LCOE) of solar and wind is well below that of any other generation source.

Even adding two and six hours of storage with batteries or pumped hydro still leaves the cost of “firm” solar and wind power cheaper than any fossil fuel alternative.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/csiro-aemo-study-says-wind-solar-and-storage-clearly-cheaper-than-coal-45724/

And this was in 2018. The price of solar cells and batteries are still going down dramatically. 

[VincentRJ]

10 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Even adding two and six hours of storage with batteries or pumped hydro still leaves the cost of “firm” solar and wind power cheaper than any fossil fuel alternative.

Interesting! I presume the two hours of storage refers to battery storage for wind and solar, and the six hours refers to pumped hydro for places like Tasmania where hydroelectricity is a major source of power.

 

For wind and solar, two hours of battery storage is not nearly enough. Hydro-power is fine when there's fairly regular rainfall, but not so reliable during the drought periods that Australia experiences regularly.

 

These factors need to be taken into consideration if we want to avoid major disruptions to the economy during droughts, heatwaves, or long periods of cloudy skies and/or calm days with little wind.

[JamesBlond]

The article is selective in its presentation of the facts. It somehow omits to mention the Malpas reservoir, which is just a few miles from Guyra. It mentions the freshwater lagoon on the edge of town, which is actually a nature reserve and has indeed been dry for some time but it is disingenuous to mention one and not the other when it comes to a discussion of water supply.
Apparently, a new pipeline is being constructed from Malpas to Guyra which is due to be completed by the end of this year. There is also talk of increasing the height of the wall around the reservoir to double its capacity. This reporter doesn't seem to have done much research.
Periodic droughts happen, but the point about warming seas affecting rainfall is the key thing in this and should have been the focus. I also found elsewhere mention of the fact that the population in this part of NSW has been increasing...

[Stargeezr]

I am hopeful that Australia will get through this drought, it has to be affecting lots

of people. At least Australia did away with its carbon tax. I do hope Canada

will realize this tax is just a cash cow, no change in the climate will come from this tax.

Good luck Australia.

Geezer

[Brer]

On 9/28/2019 at 8:08 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

If the Australian government thinks it is worth saving those towns they can build desalination plants and pipe the water to the towns. Riyadh in Saudi has water piped in so it's possible.

Australia has plenty of coal to run the desalination plants.

Yes your right desalination plants might be an answer, however the problem has become now. Pipes and plants would take years to build.

Unfortunately governments in NSW and QLD are preoccupied with building roads for more cars and our federal government simply is on a mission to build budget surpluses.

You can’t spend the money when your dead.

Scomo will pray for some rain in the hope this problem will go away, however it won’t and the inactions of our governments will just compound the problems even more.

 

[Stargeezr]

Solar farms take up a lot of space, and rich people do not want to see any thing but good scenery from their expensive homes, so the NIMBY effect is strong. Wind power is a killer for many thousands of birds every day. Flat Australia has an issue with hydro dams, and Nuke power is dangerous, and the waste is hard to get rid of. If India and China and Europe are still building coal fired power plants, can Australia at least build a modern one with methods of lessening the exhaust emissions?

Geezer

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/29/2019 at 5:29 PM, JamesBlond said:

The article is selective in its presentation of the facts. It somehow omits to mention the Malpas reservoir, which is just a few miles from Guyra. It mentions the freshwater lagoon on the edge of town, which is actually a nature reserve and has indeed been dry for some time but it is disingenuous to mention one and not the other when it comes to a discussion of water supply.
Apparently, a new pipeline is being constructed from Malpas to Guyra which is due to be completed by the end of this year. There is also talk of increasing the height of the wall around the reservoir to double its capacity. This reporter doesn't seem to have done much research.
Periodic droughts happen, but the point about warming seas affecting rainfall is the key thing in this and should have been the focus. I also found elsewhere mention of the fact that the population in this part of NSW has been increasing...

Thanks for mentioning population increase as apparently being a cause of the problem. Seems a simple equation- more people consume more water= falling levels in reservoirs.

Yet, no climate warrior ever mentions overpopulation, no climate politician ever mentions overpopulation.

 

Anyway, however they are powered, desalination plants are the only sensible way to provide enough fresh water for the future. They could probably power them by the amount of hot air being produced by the greens- sarcasm alert for the humour devoid.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

Solar farms take up a lot of space, and rich people do not want to see any thing but good scenery from their expensive homes, so the NIMBY effect is strong. Wind power is a killer for many thousands of birds every day. Flat Australia has an issue with hydro dams, and Nuke power is dangerous, and the waste is hard to get rid of. If India and China and Europe are still building coal fired power plants, can Australia at least build a modern one with methods of lessening the exhaust emissions?

Geezer

 

Cleaners can be added to the output of old coal powered plants. No need to build a new plant. They've been in use for ages- nothing new about them.

[Wongkitlo]

555
 
No way solar is cheaper. Especially in literally a coal town.
 
Debate the ethics, environment or whatever but it all starts with the truth.
 

They have found coal fired electricity generation in Australia is cheaper because the infrastructure is in place already on most cases but if you are starting from anew it is much cheaper to build and run a solar plant than to build a coal fired plant. That is why French owned companies in Victoria are closing coal fired stations. They are out of date and too expensive to rebuild. I think we must have read the same report in different ways.

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[Wongkitlo]

Should have taken a sailing ship like Greta Thunberg. If she had her way, all transport would be by bicycle or sailing vessel. Imagine the collapse of the world economy.

You can pay extra to offset carbon on flights. The money goes towards planting trees etc.

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[Wongkitlo]

5555555555555555555555555555
Saudi has loads of sunshine too, but guess how they power their desalination plants. Hint, it's not solar.

65% of Saudi's power generation is by oil. They also have a very outdated power infrastructure. https://oxfordbusinessgroup.com/news/saudi-arabia-plans-diversify-power-sources

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[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

You can pay extra to offset carbon on flights. The money goes towards planting trees etc.

Sent from my SM-J730F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Big con. When the trees are harvested or burn down or die, carbon is released to the atmosphere.

[WeekendRaider]

'unimagineable'.

'first time ever'.

used to describe.... July 2019, which was barely above a neutral ENSO situation at any time during 2019, yet this just past July was the hottest month ever recorded [i.e. Dr. James Hansen, Columbia University].... and almost every month, month after month, during 2015/2016, but which *****was***** a record El Nino... duh.  and 2015 was when COP21 was signed, a COP for the first time ever.  duh.  "Oh, that's about ice melting in 2100. not wildfire intensities"... blah blah blah.  or record El Nino events.   right.... only compared to the prior 400 or 800 years or whatever.  i.e. Freund et. al. in May 2019, Nature Geoscience [yes, that's a valid citation]. 

....and changes in precipitation in Australia.  as in not merely near term projections for upper South America and large swaths of Mexico where we are building a improved border wall to, quite effectively, stop people we will not have the heart to.... stop, that we have not seen in people so similar looking to us since the German death camps at the end of World War 2 and suffering dehydration, heat stroke and electrolyte imbalances... that will have zero chance to crawl thru any tunnels or climb any ladders, for damn sure.

 

but don't anyone mention that "fossil fuels" and "ice melting"... or the haze in Bangkok has anything at all to do with Climate Change... drier and hotter... fire..... duh.  because that political agenda is tightly linked to a list of stuff and at the top of the list is cheap air travel and tourism.  don't anyone do that!  I just did though, didn't I?

 

so just like in the 30's, 100 years ago, folks will say (especially girlie men) 'oh it's only about Plant Food' or 'well... golly gee, it CAN'T get worse than THIS!!!!!!"
 

Edited October 2, 2019 by WeekendRaider

[cmarshall]

On 9/27/2019 at 10:02 PM, steven100 said:

AUSTRALIA MUST LOOK INTO AND START PIPING WATER ACROSS RURAL NSW.

The Great Artesian Basin is Australia's largest groundwater system. Comprising around 20% of Australia's total landmass, the Basin covers most of Queensland, the north western parts of New South Wales, part of the Northern Territory and about half of South Australia.

THE Great Artesian Basin Sustainability Initiative (GABSI) is hailed by many as the most beneficial project ever provided to Australian agriculture. 
Since its inception 20 years ago, the upgrading of more than 750 free-flowing bores and the installing of almost 32,000km of pipe drains has resulted in massive annual water savings of 250 gigalitres for one of the world’s largest underground freshwater resources. 

Before the capping and piping of the bores, up to 95% of Great Artesian Basin (GAB) water was being wasted through evaporation and seepage in free-flowing drains – which has been a problem ever since commercial exploitation of the Basin’s water and pressure resources began in 1878.

In NSW the initiative, implemented in this state as the Cap and Pipe the Bores Program, has overseen the capping of 398 free-flowing bores, with more than 10,000km of bore drains removed and 18,000km of pipe installed. That adds up to a saving of 78,500 megalitres of water every year and about 4.2 million hectares of farms supplied with permanent, efficient and strategically-located watering points.

The program has been blessed with many glowing names, but the title of unsung drought hero is the most apt for Ranald Warby, who farms at Mungindi on the NSW/Queensland border. Ranald and wife Noela produce wool, lamb and dryland grains on their 4,000-hectare property Barrakee, which is now entirely dependent on piped groundwater after two years of drought.

“If governments are serious about drought-proofing Australia, finishing the cap and piping scheme would be a wonderful start.”
Sustaining The Great Artesian Basin a must for farmers
Others agree that there is more to do to sustain this precious resource and realise the full drought-proofing and environmental benefits of a closed system. 

“There are still 530 bores to be controlled across the three Basin states, with 229 of them in NSW,” says Juanita Hamparsum, chair of the Great Artesian Basin Coordinating Committee, which provides advice from community organisations and other agencies to the government on effective Basin management. 

She says a Basin-wide coordinated approach to bore rehabilitation was proposed as part of the Great Artesian Basin Strategic Management Plan 2000, and resulted in the development of GABSI. The initiative was delivered in partnership by the Australian, NSW, Queensland, South Australian and Northern Territory governments, as well as Basin landholders, to provide almost $300million in funding to upgrade bore drains.  

That's pretty interesting.  Is the Great Artesian Basin fossil water or is it constantly replenished?

[car720]

On 9/28/2019 at 12:02 PM, VincentRJ said:

Australia is well known as a country of droughts and floods. The previous major drought is known as the 'millennium' drought, which began around the year 2000, or a bit before, and lasted until 2010-11.

 

Climate change alarmists at the time were claiming that this long period of reduced rainfall would become the norm, due to anthropogenic emissions of CO2 causing droughts to become worse. However, the amount of rainfall that ended the drought in 2010-11 was so massive it caused extensive flood damage in all the usual places that have experienced regular flooding every few decades since the country was first colonized.

 

The sad thing is, we don't seem to learn from history. During any period of drought we should be preparing for the next flood event by building more flood-mitigation dams, reshaping the landscape to prevent 'flash flooding', and doing whatever else is required to prevent damage to property, infrastructure and lives when the next inevitable change in rainfall occurs.

 

Greta Thunberg, please note. ????

Unfortunately, these things that are both logical and good for the country do not put money in pollies pockets so they just won't happen.

[Wongkitlo]

Big con. When the trees are harvested or burn down or die, carbon is released to the atmosphere.

I was trying to simplify the concept of carbon offsetting like you are obviously doing in your comment.

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[bristolboy]

9 hours ago, cmarshall said:

That's pretty interesting.  Is the Great Artesian Basin fossil water or is it constantly replenished?

It's fossil water. It's actually under pressure from its containment. So when it's tapped it gushes out, unlike ordinary water wells which tap into the water table.

An artesian aquifer is a confined aquifer containing groundwater under positive pressure. An artesian aquifer is trapped water, surrounded by layers of impermeable rock or clay which apply positive pressure to the water contained within the aquifer. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artesian_aquifer

Edited October 2, 2019 by bristolboy

[bristolboy]

19 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

Solar farms take up a lot of space, and rich people do not want to see any thing but good scenery from their expensive homes, so the NIMBY effect is strong. Wind power is a killer for many thousands of birds every day. Flat Australia has an issue with hydro dams, and Nuke power is dangerous, and the waste is hard to get rid of. If India and China and Europe are still building coal fired power plants, can Australia at least build a modern one with methods of lessening the exhaust emissions?

Geezer

 

You mean those solar farms will disrupt their view of the outback?

As for wind power:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48936941

Maybe it has a problem with hydro dams, but with hydro storage, not so much"

https://energy.anu.edu.au/research/highlights/anu-finds-22000-potential-pumped-hydro-sites-australia

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/03/26/pumped-hydro-to-triple-australias-storage-capacity/

There's no such thing as clean coal. Just less filthy coal. Recently in the USA an attempt was made to build a clean coal plant. About 7 billion dollars later they gave up and converted it to a natural gas plant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemper_Project

Edit: as for how much land it would take, here's a link to a page that shows how much.

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/em741/

And it's from 2010. The efficiency of solar cells has gone way up so less land would be needed. (and the cost has decreaed by 85%)

Edited October 2, 2019 by bristolboy

[Scott]

Post and replies violating Fair Use Policy have been removed.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, cmarshall said:

That's pretty interesting.  Is the Great Artesian Basin fossil water or is it constantly replenished?

In Saudi I visited a fossil water "well" which was about 100 meters across. Can still see the pumps they used when the water was near ground level- when I visited in the 90s the water level was about 100 meters below ground level. Use too much fossil water and it vanishes.