Final proposal - PM Johnson to unveil Brexit offer to EU

[damascase]

21 hours ago, billd766 said:

Sorry for the long post. 

 

Just a small point for you, illitirate is actually spelled illiterate and Brexiteer has a capital B and not lower case.

 

If Scotland were allowed to join the EU it would need to meet some fairly stringent financial rules, one of which is that they adopt the Euro as the standard currency.

 

I thought that you would have know that as most Brexiteers do. We may seem illiterate to you but most of us do some research if we are not up to date on a subject.

 

The only currency that Scotland will be allowed is the Euro.

 

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/euro/which-countries-use-euro_en

 

How countries join
In order to join the euro area, EU member states are required to fulfil so-called 'convergence criteria'.

These binding economic and legal conditions were agreed in the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 and are also known as 'Maastricht criteria'. All EU Member States, except Denmark and the United Kingdom, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area, once they are ready to fulfil them.

The Treaty does not specify a particular timetable for joining the euro area, but leaves it to member states to develop their own strategies for meeting the condition for euro adoption.

The European Commission and the European Central Bank jointly decide whether the conditions are met for euro area candidate countries to adopt the euro. After assessing the progress made against the convergence criteria, the two bodies publish their conclusions in respective reports. These are further ratified by the ECOFIN Council in consultation with the Parliament and Heads of State. If favourable, the adoption process can begin.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/enlargement-euro-area/convergence-criteria-joining_en

 

Convergence criteria were put in place to measure progress in countries' preparedness to adopt the euro, and are defined as a set of macroeconomic indicators, which focus on:

Price stability
Sound public finances, to ensure they are sustainable
Exchange-rate stability, to demonstrate that a Member State can manage its economy without recourse to excessive currency fluctuations
Long-term interest rates, to assess the durability of the convergence.

 

More............

 

There is a lot more if you can be bothered to research it.

 

Please don't slag off Brexiteers as being stupid If you don't know your subject very well.

You just shot yourself in the foot, again.

As for the last two sentences: don’t you realize that you are mixing up two different subjects? Joining the EU is not the same as joining the Eurozone. 

[JAG]

24 minutes ago, sandyf said:

What happened to the concept of people being able to determine the future of their nation

A very good question, particularly when asked in the context of Brexit! 

 

As for the whole question of Scottish Independence, I am somewhat resigned to the expectation that notwithstanding the last referendum result, the question will be asked, again and again until those asking get the answer they want. There is a strong lobby within Scottish politics for that, and if it translates into a majority of Scots (I'm not sure that it does) then off you go!

 

Personally I am of the opinion that leaving the United Kingdom, because England is the dominant economic and political entity in that union, and controls the unions fiscal affairs: and then asking to join another Union, in the process essentially handing control of your fiscal affairs to that union, in which another large nation is the effective dominant economic and political entity, seems rather pointless. So does either retaining the pound after independence (England will remain the dominant economic and political entity) or adopting another currency! As an Englishman I don't have a say in that matter, but I would certainly wish for my government, (England's) to maintain control of all aspects of the currency in the event of Scotland wishing to retain the Pound Sterling. Not to punish Scotland for their temerity in demanding independence, but to ensure that the currency is controlled for England's benefit and not Scotland's, since I expect that the two will diverge somewhat radically.

[zorrow424]

just why the UK needs to belong to a supposed trading bloc that produced a year on year deficit to itself of over 93 billion and rising,none of the majority 22 countries have the means or capacity of helping the UK achieve a balance of payments that anywhere nears favouring the UK,and paying 8 billion for enjoying that membership.

   Nothing quite like it anywhere in the world 'cept  USA  and no, the south will never rise again..period,held down by the likes of Alabama,Mississippi,same-same Italy Greece,Spain holding down the true value of the euro whilst Germany flourishes under that cheap currency,the EU is doomed,long time coming but it will come,especially its main benefactor is pulling the rug up from under it

   Once eire starts making that 11 billion payment to Brussels it fleeced from   Google taxes ,see the resulting mess it will descend into,better Google setting up in the UK

[zorrow424]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

A very good question, particularly when asked in the context of Brexit! 

 

As for the whole question of Scottish Independence, I am somewhat resigned to the expectation that notwithstanding the last referendum result, the question will be asked, again and again until those asking get the answer they want. There is a strong lobby within Scottish politics for that, and if it translates into a majority of Scots (I'm not sure that it does) then off you go!

 

Personally I am of the opinion that leaving the United Kingdom, because England is the dominant economic and political entity in that union, and controls the unions fiscal affairs: and then asking to join another Union, in the process essentially handing control of your fiscal affairs to that union, in which another large nation is the effective dominant economic and political entity, seems rather pointless. So does either retaining the pound after independence (England will remain the dominant economic and political entity) or adopting another currency! As an Englishman I don't have a say in that matter, but I would certainly wish for my government, (England's) to maintain control of all aspects of the currency in the event of Scotland wishing to retain the Pound Sterling. Not to punish Scotland for their temerity in demanding independence, but to ensure that the currency is controlled for England's benefit and not Scotland's, since I expect that the two will diverge somewhat radically.

Exactly,give them a referendum,give it to them on a plate,acted on immediately,just shut that damned door.  No more Barnett dictating terms

[JAG]

2 hours ago, Victornoir said:

When the "dominant nation" accumulates errors and clumsiness aggravated by boundless arrogance, it is usual for its allies to consider a cessation.

Before Brexit, many Europeans were jealous of the very favorable position of the United Kingdom. Thatcher sold the manufacturing industry for highly profitable financial and banking technology.

EU membership offered a captive market that enabled it to compete globally, making the city the world's largest market.
Brexit will lead to the progressive regression of this flagship product and perhaps its eventual disappearance.

The former production sites were sold to foreign manufacturers, allowing them to easily enter the EU market.
These activities will slowly emigrate to more gentle skies.

What will remain then of local wealth for the "dominant nation"?

Do try not to lick your chops too obviously when predicting the demise of perfidious Albion "mon ami"!

Edited October 7, 2019 by JAG

[el torro]

There's nothing to cheer about, as (as far as I can see) the new deal proposed by Boris only addresses the ridiculous May/EU 'backstop' - that was likely to have lead to the UK remaining within the EU forever.

 

Once this was made obvious to the electorate, even the mostly remain MPs didn't dare support the May/EU remain agreement....

 

Nonetheless, the Boris agreement still agrees to the UK paying the EU 39 bn (without any evidence as to why this amount is due) and paying to remain part of the EU for another 2 years.  And still no indication of beginning to talk about a trade agreement!

 

This annoys the hell out of me as if the UK is to pay a 'sweetner' to the EU - it should be for a good trade deal, not to just leave.

 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, damascase said:

As for the last two sentences: don’t you realize that you are mixing up two different subjects? Joining the EU is not the same as joining the Eurozone. 

It is now.

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It is now.

it will be when we rejoin

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

it will be when we rejoin

I was talking about Scotland. Not the UK.

[Slip]

5 hours ago, JAG said:

A very good question, particularly when asked in the context of Brexit! 

 

As for the whole question of Scottish Independence, I am somewhat resigned to the expectation that notwithstanding the last referendum result, the question will be asked, again and again until those asking get the answer they want. There is a strong lobby within Scottish politics for that, and if it translates into a majority of Scots (I'm not sure that it does) then off you go!

 

Personally I am of the opinion that leaving the United Kingdom, because England is the dominant economic and political entity in that union, and controls the unions fiscal affairs: and then asking to join another Union, in the process essentially handing control of your fiscal affairs to that union, in which another large nation is the effective dominant economic and political entity, seems rather pointless. So does either retaining the pound after independence (England will remain the dominant economic and political entity) or adopting another currency! As an Englishman I don't have a say in that matter, but I would certainly wish for my government, (England's) to maintain control of all aspects of the currency in the event of Scotland wishing to retain the Pound Sterling. Not to punish Scotland for their temerity in demanding independence, but to ensure that the currency is controlled for England's benefit and not Scotland's, since I expect that the two will diverge somewhat radically.

But the pound does not belong to England (or Scotland for that matter).  Why do you feel England has an automatic right to keep it?  I imagine you will argue that it belongs to the union, but what then if the union breaks up?

By the way, with regard to your comments about language, I always rather enjoy the style of your posts, even if I do not agree with the content; but then, I too am an English teacher. 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Slip said:

But the pound does not belong to England (or Scotland for that matter).  Why do you feel England has an automatic right to keep it?  I imagine you will argue that it belongs to the union, but what then if the union breaks up?

By the way, with regard to your comments about language, I always rather enjoy the style of your posts, even if I do not agree with the content; but then, I too am an English teacher. 

The pound was English first and the sterling issuing bank (BoE) is in London, England. So I think England has the right to keep it.

[DannyCarlton]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The pound was English first and the sterling issuing bank (BoE) is in London, England. So I think England has the right to keep it.

And it has been stated many times that not only does Scotland have a legal right to continue using the £ but the BoE would have no objection to that. It was all thrashed out before the Scottish independence referendum.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by DannyCarlton

[nauseus]

28 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

And it has been stated many times that not only does Scotland have a legal right to continue using the £ but the BoE would have no objection to that. It was all thrashed out before the Scottish independence referendum.

 

 

If Scotland were to become independent maybe. But if Scotland rejoined the EU, no way. 

[DannyCarlton]

15 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If Scotland were to become independent maybe. But if Scotland rejoined the EU, no way. 

You have that on good authority do you? Or just more brexiteer rhetoric?

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

You have that on good authority do you? Or just more brexiteer rhetoric?

Good authority.

[oldhippy]

22 hours ago, JAG said:

Again I would disagree, the question was quite relevant, I too would be interested to know, if the Scots were to become independent, what currency they would propose to use. Since one of the principle arguments for independence is that it gives the Scots the freedom to manage their own financial affairs, that by definition means that they will have to either create or adopt a currency. Adopting another currency, Pound Sterling, Euro or US Dollar for example, will by definition compromise that financial independence, no?

 

I don't lay claim to any degree of economic expertise - I have the aristocratic approach to money: when I've got it I spend it and when I haven't I do without! - but I don't think asking this question betrays any lack of "economic literacy". It was a relevant question under the circumstances.

The Scots could create their own currency - if they wish so - AND be part of the EU.

 

May I quote Bild, in your eyes an unsuspected source, and yes, for once he is right.

 

QUOTE: All EU Member States, except Denmark and the United Kingdom, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area

That means that keeping their own new currency could be "grandfathered" - without having to resort to prorogation of the Europen Parliament, ar accusing the European courts of taking sides in a political case.

 

QUOTE: The Treaty does not specify a particular timetable for joining the euro area, but leaves it to member states to develop their own strategies for meeting the condition for euro adoption.

Since Brexiteers on this forum tell me that Scotland can only survive with the support of the English, that would take a looooooong time. Besides, Sweden (and other members) has not joined the EURO zone yet.

 

As for the Scots being able to print their own banknotes within the UK? Every Euro member has it's own coins. Not that banknotes and coins mean much as compared to electronic money.

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by oldhippy
..

[zorrow424]

Just let scotland have its referendum (again),anything to the advantage of the English  must be grabbed with both hands,feet too

[oldhippy]

12 minutes ago, zorrow424 said:

Just let scotland have its referendum (again),anything to the advantage of the English  must be grabbed with both hands,feet too

Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not meet the EURO criteria, and can therefore keep it"s new currency while being member of the EU - and be financially independent.

[Bruntoid]

6 hours ago, el torro said:

 

 

Nonetheless, the Boris agreement still agrees to the UK paying the EU 39 bn (without any evidence as to why this amount is due) and paying to remain part of the EU for another 2 years.  And still no indication of beginning to talk about a trade agreement!

 

This annoys the hell out of me as if the UK is to pay a 'sweetner' to the EU - it should be for a good trade deal, not to just leave.

 

Have you even looked for your ‘evidence’ ? As the internet appears new to you its due as the U.K. PM agreed to it as the UK’s responsibility to future commitments incl membership to end 2020.

 

As we didn’t leave as planned and are paying those instalments now, the amount will actually be less. 

 

Why would the EU open trade talks when the gobby <deleted> on the other side of the table is making threats about not coughing up already agreed commitments? Sounds like you’re beginning to understand the carnage coming your way. 

 

Hope that helped 

[Bruntoid]

On 10/6/2019 at 7:20 PM, englishoak said:

 

 

We have 25 days left im sure the dramas and claims will be coming in daily pretty soon so keep your hopes up there kiddo. .. whens collusion with some country going to be claimed ? next week or the week after ? Hungary or Russia ? maybe both 

So there was no Russian interference in the Brexit vote right ? ????

[oldhippy]

29 minutes ago, zorrow424 said:

Just let scotland have its referendum (again),anything to the advantage of the English  must be grabbed with both hands,feet too

Who grabs things with hands and feet too? I think you know the answer.

The English and the......

 

 

Slip of the tongue?

 

[sanemax]

16 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not meet the EURO criteria, and can therefore keep it"s new currency while being member of the EU - and be financially independent.

Isnt Scotland reliant on the rest of the UK to financially support them ? 

[Bruntoid]

On 10/6/2019 at 4:43 PM, JAG said:

Not really - I completely understand that not everyone is as fortunate as I was to receive an education which allows them the luxury to be as pedantic or obsessive about such matters. I will admit that I enjoy crafting my answers, and I try to write as elegantly and precisely as possible, using as wide a vocabulary and as full a range of (often obsolescent) punctuation as I can. It may well annoy some - I'm sorry if it does; but I do enjoy using long words like marmalade and wheelbarrow, and deploying colons, semicolons and ellipses.

Think of it as a hobby...

 

Returning to the original quote, I think you miss the point, the irony perhaps, that if one makes a post which is predicated on your view of someone's literacy skills, then one should in fairness make the effort to be linguistically accurate oneself. Otherwise I generally take posts as I find them. As long as I understand the thrust of the argument, whether I agree with the argument or not.

 

I will admit to having become bored with posts (from both sides of the divide actually) which are based on repeatedly and obvious false assertions, for example that the British vote in our referendum is somehow due to our now gone Empire, or that all European nations are united in an implacable desire to destroy the United Kingdom as some sort of revenge or means of alleviating their shame for the events of 1939 - 1945. There you are, in an attempt to show a balanced view I have included genres from both sides of the divide.

Clearly never heard of précis 

 

Good god that was dull! 

[oldhippy]

2 minutes ago, Bruntoid said:

So there was no Russian interference in the Brexit vote right ? ????

Poetin is a genius.

He knows he can not defeat the western world.

But he makes sure the western world defeats it self.

 

[Slip]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Isnt Scotland reliant on the rest of the UK to financially support them ? 

No.  Little Englander twaddle.

[oldhippy]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Isnt Scotland reliant on the rest of the UK to financially support them ? 

Exactly. You got it. Therefore Scotland can join the EU without joining the Euro zone, as it does not meet the criteria for joining. Scotland can be really independent.

So make up your mind about this issue. What will it be?

 

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Poetin is a genius.

He knows he can not defeat the western world.

But he makes sure the western world defeats it self.

 

Phew, the UK leaves the EU , the free Western World will collapse and Communism will take over and we will all be doomed and live under Communist directorship .

  Maybe we should stay in the EU after  all ?

[oldhippy]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Phew, the UK leaves the EU , the free Western World will collapse and Communism will take over and we will all be doomed and live under Communist directorship .

  Maybe we should stay in the EU after  all ?

Communists ? Where? Under your bed ?

Oh wait. Are you saying Poetin is a communist?

Oh wait again. Are you saying Colbyn is a communist ?

 

 

[elliss]

On 10/2/2019 at 4:24 PM, Jip99 said:

 

 

NO....”Majority” ....and LEAVE, were the operative words.

 

      History  , a thousand days and more.

       Lessons have been learned ,   a informed vote is now required ,  the only way forward .

 

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by elliss

[SheungWan]

just why the UK needs to belong to a supposed trading bloc that produced a year on year deficit to itself of over 93 billion and rising,none of the majority 22 countries have the means or capacity of helping the UK achieve a balance of payments that anywhere nears favouring the UK,and paying 8 billion for enjoying that membership.
   Nothing quite like it anywhere in the world 'cept  USA  and no, the south will never rise again..period,held down by the likes of Alabama,Mississippi,same-same Italy Greece,Spain holding down the true value of the euro whilst Germany flourishes under that cheap currency,the EU is doomed,long time coming but it will come,especially its main benefactor is pulling the rug up from under it
   Once eire starts making that 11 billion payment to Brussels it fleeced from   Google taxes ,see the resulting mess it will descend into,better Google setting up in the UK

London feels the same way about the backward regions.

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