Brexit hangs in the balance as EU doubts a deal this week

[NanLaew]

40 minutes ago, david555 said:

it done over & out for the moment ….. next extension or nothing , I don't see any solution in this short few weeks day's

can not be done technically as 27 country heads have to be informed if ANY changes could be made to "sweeten" the DUP ...

"It is worth remembering that the DUP is the party that says no. “No surrender” was its slogan in its heyday when it was led by its bombastic founder, the now deceased Ian Paisley.

 

It is also worth remembering that it did not support the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement in 1998. And we know what happened there."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/oct/17/eu-leaders-gather-for-summit-as-boris-johnson-scrambles-to-get-backing-for-brexit-deal-politics-live

 

The DUP are like my wee boy..

 

"Go take a shower."

 

"No."

 

"Go take a shower right now!"

 

"No!!"

 

"Go take a shower right now. ...I have ice cream."

 

"OK!"

Edited October 17, 2019 by NanLaew

[NanLaew]

24 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

So if the DUP and ERG reject Boris' deal, surely Brexit is finally over with. An indefinite extension and a non Tory government (scuppered by Farage!) and we can just revoke and remain.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

The ~10 hardline ERG eurosceptics will be negated by the ~10 Labour rebels. However...

 

EU Referendum 101

 

By constituency: 406 Leave, 242 remain.
By voting area: 263 Leave, 119 remain.
By constituent country - England: 53% leave, 46.6% remain.
By constituent country - N Ireland: 44.2% leave, 55.8% remain.
By constituent country - Scotland: 38% leave, 62% remain.
By constituent country - Wales:52.5% leave, 47.5 remain.
By party seat- Labour: 148 leave, 84 remain.
By party seat - Tory: 247 leave, 80 remain.
By party seat - Lib Dem: 2 leave, 7 remain.  
By MP: 248 Leave, 400 Remain.

 

Nope... Unless you're Northern Irish, Scottish, Lib Dem or an MP, I still can't see any real right to revoke anything.

[david555]

10 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

"It is worth remembering that the DUP is the party that says no. “No surrender” was its slogan in its heyday when it was led by its bombastic founder, the now deceased Ian Paisley.

 

It is also worth remembering that it did not support the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement in 1998. And we know what happened there."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/oct/17/eu-leaders-gather-for-summit-as-boris-johnson-scrambles-to-get-backing-for-brexit-deal-politics-live

 

The DUP are like my wee boy..

 

"Go take a shower."

 

"No."

 

"Go take a shower right now!"

 

"No!!"

 

"Go take a shower right now. ...I have ice cream."

 

"OK!"

I think the DUP shall be the one responsible to break the good Friday agreements ….. by ultimate be the only ones responsible to have a kind of a boarder on the Island .

[Nigel Garvie]

45 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Still spouting the tired old cliches about Brexiteers? No wonder Remain lost the Referendum with such a poor understanding of the Leave demographic.

 

You have it in one, Brexiteers are overwhelmingly older by demographic than Remainers - established in many, many surveys - it is widely accepted. Whether they are also more tired I wouldn't care to judge. I am older though, and more tired than I was when I was younger!

[samran]

50 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Still spouting the tired old cliches about Brexiteers? No wonder Remain lost the Referendum with such a poor understanding of the Leave demographic.

 

It's amazing that Remainers still haven't learnt that insulting people doesn't make them change their minds. Should you be fortunate enough to get another referendum, no doubt you'll be in a state of shock when Leave wins again. Maybe you should get out and talk to some Brexiteers face to face (no doubt you'd drop the insults when you're not hiding behind a keyboard) and find their real reasons for leaving. You might be surprised.

Hence the thin skinned response then?

I'll sum up my position in Brexit. Its stupid. Was I in the UK i would have voted against it. I've put up lots of detailed arguments on this board on why I think so.

But it is happening, and it will likely benefit me personally as an Australian. Doesn't mean that I don't think it is stupid, but i'm a 'make your own bed' type of fellow.

The harder the brexit the better I reckon, if only for the reason one tends to watch slow motion car crashes and then slows down to rubber neck as you drive by. 

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

You have it in one, Brexiteers are overwhelmingly older by demographic than Remainers - established in many, many surveys - it is widely accepted. Whether they are also more tired I wouldn't care to judge. I am older though, and more tired than I was when I was younger!

Well you're no spring chicken and frequently moaning about the effect of the exchange rate so you don't exactly fit the theory.  

[tebee]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Still spouting the tired old cliches about Brexiteers? No wonder Remain lost the Referendum with such a poor understanding of the Leave demographic.

 

It's amazing that Remainers still haven't learnt that insulting people doesn't make them change their minds. Should you be fortunate enough to get another referendum, no doubt you'll be in a state of shock when Leave wins again. Maybe you should get out and talk to some Brexiteers face to face (no doubt you'd drop the insults when you're not hiding behind a keyboard) and find their real reasons for leaving. You might be surprised.

But the leave demographic was by and large, older, less well educated people.

 

You can see the reasons why - they are ( apart from Spain dwelling retires) the people less likely to use FOM and see it as a positive thing. They are also the demographic more likely to read the tabloid press and believe the rubbish spewed   there.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Ah the old Brexit Dunkirk spirit ????

You know Dunkirk was a bloody disaster yes?

Only you mentioned that place.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

nobody can realistically predict that things can be 'expected to drag' into whenever. Nobody can realistically claim there will be any "multiple no-deal cliff-edges."

Of course they can.

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Well you're no spring chicken and frequently moaning about the effect of the exchange rate so you don't exactly fit the theory.  

I'm older too - you might have noticed I too tend to support remain. 

 

Just because more levers are older it doesn't mean every older person is a leaver !

[billd766]

18 hours ago, evadgib said:

I had no idea where to post this but I guess here's as good as any ????

 

Petition for the English to have an Independence referendum.

 

(Don't shoot the messenger!)

I just signed up.

[billd766]

8 hours ago, bannork said:

The Brexiteers don't like to mention that our attraction as a market will decrease from well over 500 million people to 67 million. Little England literally.

What you didn't mention is that the over 500 million people are shared between 27 other countries. Some get a larger share than others and some get less.

 

I think that of those 27 other countries perhaps 6 or 7 are net payers in and the remainder get subsidised.

 

8 hours ago, Basil B said:

Here we go again blame the EU, They are in Brussels waiting for Boris.

Boris spent most of yesterday trying to come up with a deal that the ERG and DUP will accept, this is a guy who really believes Farther Christmases sledge is pulled by Unicorns and all those Tory MP's he F'ed Off the other week are going to vote for his deal when in reality the whole of the Tory party is falling apart like a clowns car at the circus.

So you are knocking Boris for trying to do the job he was elected to do.

 

If he does (nothing) you knock him. I actually meant to say something instead of nothing. Stupid boy Pike.

 

If he does nothing you knock him.

Edited October 17, 2019 by billd766
edited for bad spelling after I had posted, again.

[JonnyF]

12 minutes ago, samran said:

Hence the thin skinned response then?

I'll sum up my position in Brexit. Its stupid. Was I in the UK i would have voted against it. I've put up lots of detailed arguments on this board on why I think so.

But it is happening, and it will likely benefit me personally as an Australian. Doesn't mean that I don't think it is stupid, but i'm a 'make your own bed' type of fellow.

The harder the brexit the better I reckon, if only for the reason one tends to watch slow motion car crashes and then slows down to rubber neck as you drive by. 

Nothing thin skinned in my response, re-read it. 

 

So you think it's stupid, therefore anyone who supports it must be stupid. Classic, overly simplistic <deleted> logic.

 

Since you raised the issue of the "personal" effect of Brexit, I can say the only effect on me has been mainly positive. In real terms, my property value in the UK has continued to increase steadily since 2016 and the portion of my salary that goes home every month is now buying me 30% more pounds than it was. My brother in law who works in finance in the city says he's never been busier. The only complaints I've heard from family and friends in the UK is that their holidays are more expensive due to the weak pound. That doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for people sending money the other way, but any change in FX will always benefit some and cause issues for others, that's the nature of the beast.

 

However, my reason for supporting Brexit was NOT economic and I would be prepared to take a short term economic hit (let's say 5 years) to break free of the federalist EU project, regain sovereignty, open our trade up to the rest of the world, regain control of UK borders and fishing waters, stop funding other countries in the EU to take care of UK taxpayers etc. because I believe medium to long term it will benefit the UK. That doesn't mean a short term hit is inevitable, just that I believe it would be a price worth paying if it happened. 

 

You might consider someone who is prepared to take a short term financial hit to regain those things as stupid, but I would say that I am looking longer term than you and have different priorities. If it makes your world view less problematic to write someone off with different views or priorities as "stupid" then I believe that says more about you than it does me. 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Ah the old Brexit Dunkirk spirit ????

You know Dunkirk was a bloody disaster yes?

This is off topic and I apologise for responding but...

 

No it wasn't a disaster. A big setback certainly.

 

To pull 337,xxx troops of the beaches in such a short time with no shore based infrastructure was little short of a miracle and a whole lot of hard work.

[DannyCarlton]

4 hours ago, NanLaew said:

BTW. who on Earth is Daniel Cummings when he's at home?

Typo. Should be Dominic Cummings as I'm sure that you are well aware.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

In your eyes maybe,

 

 

I thought this one was better though.

 

 

but to me it alludes to...

 

And turning losses into VICTORIES!

Thank you for that and for sticking up for the UK.

[evadgib]

a 'yes, minister' summing up the latest attempted stitch up:

 

[JonnyF]

25 minutes ago, tebee said:

But the leave demographic was by and large, older, less well educated people.

 

You can see the reasons why - they are ( apart from Spain dwelling retires) the people less likely to use FOM and see it as a positive thing. They are also the demographic more likely to read the tabloid press and believe the rubbish spewed   there.

As someone who is probably lower than the average user age on the forum, I find it perplexing that all the old retirees on here moaning about having to cut back on things like eating out due to the exchange rate are so keen to write off the vote of older people in the UK as if their vote is less worthy. 

 

These are people that have worked their whole lives, paid into the system and rightly expect to see some payback for it in their old age. To somehow dismiss their vote or even worse, laugh about how many of them have died since 2016 is deeply disrespectful. So what if more old people voted Leave? They earned their vote and it should be respected as much as anyone else's. So what if someone worked as a binman or a bricklayer for 45 years, he's entitled to his opinion as much as some clueless 18 year old student whose been brainwashed by their A level Sociology teacher. The idea that all Leavers are stupid and all Remainers are sophisticated members of Mensa is deluded.

[samran]

14 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Nothing thin skinned in my response, re-read it. 

 

So you think it's stupid, therefore anyone who supports it must be stupid. Classic, overly simplistic <deleted> logic.

 

Since you raised the issue of the "personal" effect of Brexit, I can say the only effect on me has been mainly positive. In real terms, my property value in the UK has continued to increase steadily since 2016 and the portion of my salary that goes home every month is now buying me 30% more pounds than it was. My brother in law who works in finance in the city says he's never been busier. The only complaints I've heard from family and friends in the UK is that their holidays are more expensive due to the weak pound. That doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for people sending money the other way, but any change in FX will always benefit some and cause issues for others, that's the nature of the beast.

 

However, my reason for supporting Brexit was NOT economic and I would be prepared to take a short term economic hit (let's say 5 years) to break free of the federalist EU project, regain sovereignty, open our trade up to the rest of the world, regain control of UK borders and fishing waters, stop funding other countries in the EU to take care of UK taxpayers etc. because I believe medium to long term it will benefit the UK. That doesn't mean a short term hit is inevitable, just that I believe it would be a price worth paying if it happened. 

 

You might consider someone who is prepared to take a short term financial hit to regain those things as stupid, but I would say that I am looking longer term than you and have different priorities. If it makes your world view less problematic to write someone off with different views or priorities as "stupid" then I believe that says more about you than it does me. 

Stop putting words into my mouth. I called Brexit stupid. I didn't say people who supported it necessarily are. Plenty of Tories were against it, but see political value in supporting it now to further their careers. Plenty of business people see self interest in Brexit - mainly as they can now benefit from less competition -  but will happily wrap themselves in the flag to protect themselves from too much criticism.

 

As for the rest of your post - your selflessness to take an economic hit brings a tear to my eye.

Edited October 17, 2019 by samran

[beautifulthailand99]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

a 'yes, minister' summing up the latest attempted stitch up:

 

Why have you posted a Monty Python clip ?

[david555]

LIVE Updated 3m ago

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/oct/17/eu-leaders-gather-for-summit-as-boris-johnson-scrambles-to-get-backing-for-brexit-deal-politics-live

Andrew Sparrow

Politics

Brexit: Boris Johnson says he has secured 'great new deal' with EU – live news

Jean-Claude Juncker also confirms that deal has been agreed: follow the day’s Brexit events as they happen

 

 

 

 

Maybe Bojo is throwing them under his red bus.....55555 lol

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by david555

[DannyCarlton]

16 minutes ago, evadgib said:

a 'yes, minister' summing up the latest attempted stitch up:

No, actually a failed UKIP candidate in the Shaftsbury council elections in 2017.

 

Lester "Jeff" Taylor. One of the more extreme members of UKIP....and that's saying something!

[david555]

https://news.sky.com/story/live-brexit-deal-hangs-in-the-balance-as-pm-heads-to-eu-summit-11837415

Breaking

LIVE: 'We've got great new deal' - Boris Johnson declares a Brexit agreement in place

Latest updates as Boris Johnson travels to Brussels, after agreeing a Brexit deal with the EU.

[NanLaew]

48 minutes ago, tebee said:

But the leave demographic was by and large, older, less well educated people.

The well proven fact that the demographics showed that more graduates voted Remain does not in any shape of form suggest that they were any better educated or qualified than the mostly older, Leavers who at most probably had some of their GCE's. To suggest such is not only presumptuous but frankly quite rude. To keep touting that old mantra three years after it was cheered very loudly by the denialist Remainers just confirms that they have run out of meaningful, credible things to debate.

 

Over my 40-odd years working around the world, having a degree has conferred automatic brilliance on very, very few of my peers and clients. Some of them, despite being CEO's and the like aren't very bright at all and with some I ponder who tied their bloody shoelaces in the morning.

[sandrabbit]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/boris-johnson-brexit-agreement-eu-michel-barnier-094021311.html?.tsrc=bell-brknews

[sanemax]

9 hours ago, bannork said:

The Brexiteers don't like to mention that our attraction as a market will decrease from well over 500 million people to 67 million. Little England literally.

British people are confident that the UK can stand on its own two feet .

We dont need the rest of Europe to improve us  

[samran]

9 minutes ago, sanemax said:

British people are confident that the UK can stand on its own two feet .

We dont need the rest of Europe to improve us  

Whatever of the UK is left you mean...

[sanemax]

13 minutes ago, samran said:

Whatever of the UK is left you mean...

Nothing has been reduced in regards to the UK in recent years 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

As someone who is probably lower than the average user age on the forum, I find it perplexing that all the old retirees on here moaning about having to cut back on things like eating out due to the exchange rate are so keen to write off the vote of older people in the UK as if their vote is less worthy. 

 

These are people that have worked their whole lives, paid into the system and rightly expect to see some payback for it in their old age. To somehow dismiss their vote or even worse, laugh about how many of them have died since 2016 is deeply disrespectful. So what if more old people voted Leave? They earned their vote and it should be respected as much as anyone else's. So what if someone worked as a binman or a bricklayer for 45 years, he's entitled to his opinion as much as some clueless 18 year old student whose been brainwashed by their A level Sociology teacher. The idea that all Leavers are stupid and all Remainers are sophisticated members of Mensa is deluded.

Indeed it's their democratic right to vote no matter how old and stupid they are ! But it's equally my democratic right to continue to oppose brexit and to try to stop it as what is proposed now is completely different to  what was proposed at the time of the referendum.

 

I think it's sad brexit  has caused this split between the generations and to a lesser extent, between educated and less well educated. I don't think the social consequences  for the future UK will be worth it even if brexit turns out to be the nivana that was promised.

 

It's sad that any brexit achieved now will undoubtedly be overturned as those younger people age and become the majority.  All this pain and anguish will have been for nothing. The best of our next generation will simply vote with their feet and leave whatever remains of the Uk. 

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

Indeed it's their democratic right to vote no matter how old and stupid they are

You are rude and abusive and quite typical of your kind