Johnson faces perilous Brexit ratification after deal vote blocked

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

He is an excellent speaker for Remainers because he is completely biased towards Remain.

 

Of course you like him. If all you care about is Remaining at all costs and you don't give a toss about convention, the constitution, Democracy, bullying of subordinates and the integrity of the House of Commons then he's perfect ????.

Parliament is working just fine, the checks and balances are working astoundingly well, this could never happen in a dictatorship. Decisions take time and in the end we will see a compromise come out of this, it won't fully satisfy anyone but that is inherent in every compromise, what we won't see are riots and tanks rolling along the streets, shootings and lynchings won't happen either despite the futile cries of "traitor" by some here. This is democracy at work, not treason.

[JonnyF]

11 minutes ago, dimitriv said:

 

If that government breaks the laws...  Yes, for sure.  Everybody has to follow the law.

 

But what about the trade deals ?  We talked about that before. And you expected a lot. But till now it looks very sad. Nothing worth talking about. Even before Brexit takes place it is already a failure. 

 

 

We haven't left the EU yet. We can't sign trade deals until we have left. Not many countries are going to invest time and effort agreeing trade deals with us while Remainers are still trying to overturn the Democratic vote.

 

I'd be more worried about the EU if I was you. How's the EU's trade deals with China and the US coming along? Which country are you going to replace the UK with? There are 5 on the waiting list...

 

Turkey

Macedonia

Montenegro

Serbia

Albania

 

Good Luck with them ????

[dimitriv]

Just now, JonnyF said:

We haven't left the EU yet. We can't sign trade deals until we have left. Not many countries are going to invest time and effort agreeing trade deals with us while Remainers are still trying to overturn the Democratic vote.

 

I'd be more worried about the EU if I was you. How's the EU's trade deals with China and the US coming along? Which country are you going to replace the UK with? There are 5 on the waiting list...

 

 

You know that what you say is not the truth. The UK negotiated many deals already. But none of them was better than the EU already has for many years.

 

A trade deal with the US will probably mean the end of your healthcare system and the start of importing chloride chicken. There is a reason why the EU has no trade deal with the US. And China is something you can better avoid.

 

 

[JamesBlond]

It's not Johnson who's in peril, it's Britain. The remainers have brought disgrace and dishonour to the nation.

 

I would like to ask all of them this: if you lose at anything, do you demand the result be expunged from the record? If you are losing a game of Monopoly, do you kick the board over? If your team loses a cup final, do you demand that the game be replayed until your team wins? Do you understand the concept of losing with grace and dignity at all?

[soalbundy]

Just now, JamesBlond said:

It's not Johnson who's in peril, it's Britain. The remainers have brought disgrace and dishonour to the nation.

 

I would like to ask all of them this: if you lose at anything, do you demand the result be expunged from the record? If you are losing a game of Monopoly, do you kick the board over? If your team loses a cup final, do you demand that the game be replayed until your team wins? Do you understand the concept of losing with grace and dignity at all?

The fat lady is still singing so we haven't lost yet, let parliamentary democracy run its course first.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, JamesBlond said:

It's not Johnson who's in peril, it's Britain. The remainers have brought disgrace and dishonour to the nation.

 

I would like to ask all of them this: if you lose at anything, do you demand the result be expunged from the record? If you are losing a game of Monopoly, do you kick the board over? If your team loses a cup final, do you demand that the game be replayed until your team wins? Do you understand the concept of losing with grace and dignity at all?

Do you understand that Democracy is a process and not a game of ‘winner takes all’?

 

 

[Bluespunk]

deleted 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Bluespunk

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, Basil B said:

What really upsets you Brexiteers he is as speaker preventing the Government from "railroading"  parliament, Yes, he has views but please show where he has ignored Erskine May...

We expect impartiality as that is a key part of the role. He's consistently ignored the advice of his own Parliamentary clerks when it comes to supporting the Remain cause. His selective interpretation of the word forthwith was one very clear example.

 

You think it's appropriate in his role to have secret meetings with EU officials? He needs to go. You're defending the indefensible, but I guess once you've started on the path of fighting against the implementation of Democratic votes, it's a slippery slope ????.

[JonnyF]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Do you understand that Democracy is a process and not a game of ‘winner takes all’?

 

 

It was a Binary choice, Remain or Leave. Leave won and the result of the vote must be implemented.

 

In terms of process, sure we can have another one in a couple of decades after this one has been implemented. That's how Democracy works. It doesn't work by insulting the other side and demanding another vote before you even implemented the result of the first one because you don't like the result.

 

That's a desperate, illogical and frankly uncivilized stance to take. You're better than that. 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

It was a Binary choice, Remain or Leave. Leave won and the result of the vote must be implemented.

 

In terms of process, sure we can have another one in a couple of decades after this one has been implemented. That's how Democracy works. It doesn't work by insulting the other side and demanding another vote before you even implemented the result of the first one because you don't like the result.

 

That's a desperate, illogical and frankly uncivilized stance to take. You're better than that. 

The question I asked was:

 

18 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Do you understand that Democracy is a process and not a game of ‘winner takes all’?

 

 

You’ve confirmed you do not.

[JonnyF]

6 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

And he wonders why his wife sleeps with other men ,not suprising when your married to a weasel like him

Well he certainly is a weasel but I think the personal attacks are best left to the Remainers and their unsavory insults towards Johnson, we probably shouldn't stoop to those levels.

[sandyf]

32 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

How's the EU's trade deals with China and the US coming along?

One day you will realise why they will never happen, the EU does not need sub standard goods and can continue to trade with the US and China as they do.

The US is the UK's biggest trading partner apart from the EU, what makes people think it would be any better as an FTA. The US are pushing as they see the UK as an easy target without the EU protection.

Free trade deals are never free. 

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The question I asked was:

 

You’ve confirmed you do not.

I'll simplify it as it seems my answer was too complicated. The process is this.

 

• One side wins the vote.
• The result of the vote is implemented.
• If required, after the first vote is implemented another vote can take place at a later date (normally several years after the first vote was implemented).
• The result of the vote is one again implemented.
• And so on and so on.

It's not complicated. Please pay attention to the parts in bold. If you still don't understand, please refer to General Elections over the past 50 years for examples.

 

[JamesBlond]

26 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Do you understand that Democracy is a process and not a game of ‘winner takes all’?

 

 

The referendum was the process. Democracy is honouring the referendum. That's fundamental. Notice the word honour?

What's your next cavil?

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, JonnyF said:

I'll simplify it as it seems my answer was too complicated. The process is this.

 

• One side wins the vote.
• The result of the vote is implemented.
• If required, after the first vote is implemented another vote can take place at a later date (normally several years after the first vote was implemented).
• The result of the vote is one again implemented.
• And so on and so on.

It's not complicated. Please pay attention to the parts in bold. If you still don't understand, please refer to General Elections over the past 50 years for examples.

 

Erm, you missed the bit in the middle.

 

The democracy bit, where people who disagree have a right to oppose and if they succeed reverse decisions regardless of how far down the line the implementation has travelled.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, JamesBlond said:

The referendum was the process. Democracy is honouring the referendum. That's fundamental. Notice the word honour?

What's your next cavil?

Democracy is a lot more than that.

 

 

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

One day you will realise why they will never happen, the EU does not need sub standard goods and can continue to trade with the US and China as they do.

The US is the UK's biggest trading partner apart from the EU, what makes people think it would be any better as an FTA. The US are pushing as they see the UK as an easy target without the EU protection.

Free trade deals are never free. 

Make your minds up. One minute the UK will collapse without trade deals, the next minute it's fine (for the EU) not to have them. ????

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Erm, you missed the bit in the middle.

 

The democracy bit, where people who disagree have a right to oppose and if they succeed reverse decisions regardless of how far down the line the implementation has travelled.

Really?

 

When's the last time the party that won a General Election had the result overturned before they took power? You think if that happened it would be Democratic?

[JamesBlond]

6 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Erm, you missed the bit in the middle.

 

The democracy bit, where people who disagree have a right to oppose and if they succeed reverse decisions regardless of how far down the line the implementation has travelled.

Where did you get the bit about 'right to oppose and overturn referendum results before they have even been enacted'? There is no such right. You can oppose all you want, but the referendum result has to be enacted. Stop whining and accept it. After a few years there can be another referendum if there is sufficient call, and the result of that one must be honoured too, just as the result of the present one must be honoured. Get the system?

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by JamesBlond

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Are you suggesting it is OK to for unelected judges to overturn the political decisions of a democratically elected Government?

I guess in the Brexiteers‘ world, judges would have to be elected through manipulated opinion polls so that they can ignore the wrongdoings of a government. 

[JamesBlond]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Democracy is a lot more than that.

 

Democracy is not simply what you say it is. It's what most people say - and in the case of a referendum, that's by definition. Most people voted leave in the referendum. The validity of the referendum was not legally challenged.

Back to the original question, which you dodged: do grace and dignity in defeat, and the honour of the nation, mean nothing at all to you?

[welovesundaysatspace]

11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Really?

 

When's the last time the party that won a General Election had the result overturned before they took power? You think if that happened it would be Democratic?

A general election is binding. A referendum is not. Still don’t understand this after all the years?

[welovesundaysatspace]

4 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Democracy is not simply what you say it is. It's what most people say - and in the case of a referendum, that's by definition. Most people voted leave in the referendum. 

You’re wrong. What democracy is is defined by laws. 

 

4 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

The validity of the referendum was not legally challenged.

of course, no Brexiteer would try that, because they know the law is clear that it’s not binding. 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Basil B said:

The remainers Brexiteers still can't grasp what is happening...

 

 

Great bit of editing there, Bas. Daily Globe?

[welovesundaysatspace]

12 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Where did you get the bit about 'right to oppose and overturn referendum results before they have even been enacted'? There is no such right.

there doesn’t have to be such right because there’s no obligation to enact a non-binding referendum in the first place. 

 

12 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

You can oppose all you want, but the referendum result has to be enacted.

no, it doesn’t. ???? 

12 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Stop whining and accept it.

you wish ???? 

 

12 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

After a few years there can be another referendum if there is sufficient call, and the result of that one must be honoured too, just as the result of the present one must be honoured. Get the system?

Who gives a damn about your “system”? 

[JamesBlond]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

A general election is binding. A referendum is not. Still don’t understand this after all the years?

It's binding. They put that clause in just in case the process of the referendum turned out to be illegal in some way or if some unforeseen circumstance compromises the result. The result was deemed legally valid so in all practical and moral terms, it is now binding. Drop it.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, dimitriv said:

 

Maybe it's not a bias but have they concluded that Brexit is a big mistake and has no benefits?

 

Has the UK already better trade deals? So far it looks bad.

 

 

If that is the reason then it shows the bias within them that they should not have, if they are to judge impartially. Same as Bercow.

[Sticky Wicket]

27 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Erm, you missed the bit in the middle.

 

The democracy bit, where people who disagree have a right to oppose and if they succeed reverse decisions regardless of how far down the line the implementation has travelled.

You could fill a large bucket with all the dribble you produce. It's relentless

[welovesundaysatspace]

6 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

It's binding. They put that clause in just in case the process of the referendum turned out to be illegal in some way or if some unforeseen circumstance compromises the result. The result was deemed legally valid so in all practical and moral terms, it is now binding. Drop it.

Show us the law that says it was legally binding then. It doesn’t exist. It’s a fantasy product of Brexit lala Land ???? 

[JonnyF]

19 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I guess in the Brexiteers‘ world, judges would have to be elected through manipulated opinion polls so that they can ignore the wrongdoings of a government. 

Desperate, desperate stuff ????.

 

Like most things in the UK, it was working fine until Remainers decided that they wouldn't give losers consent after losing the 2016 referendum.